CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => Headphone, IEM, and Other Audio Related Discussion => Topic started by: OJneg on October 10, 2014, 04:23:00 AM
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Ultrabike's Impressions: http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1819.msg49245.html#msg49245
Mr Anax's Impressions: http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1819.msg53670.html#msg53670
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Here's my notes on the Stax system that's going around. Big thanks to the Massdrop guys for making this available to pirates :)p1
Test Conditions:
Lynx Hilo Line-Out > SRM-323S Amplifier > SR-307
Lynx Hilo Line-Out > ECP Torpedo (various triodes and various coupling caps used without regard for repeatability) > HD800 and HD600
(if noun is not explicit, assume I'm talking about the Stax. You'll probably catch me contradicting myself on multiple occasions. Listening took place over the course of multiple nights under different levels of intoxication)
vs HD800
* Immediately less open than HD800
* strings have more plastic, less natural timbre
* Good speed on strings, reasonably extended and articulate
* Excursion must be limited, can't reproduce kick drum at high SPLs
* less clear across the spectrum in direct comparison to HD800
* pretty good ambient portrayal, pretty good separation
* ocean waves are more natural with HD800, although the Stax give an illusion of better separation; SR307 does great on macrodetail (not so much on micro)
* Sometimes I feel like the SR307 might be subtracting warmth from the recording to give a false sense of extra detail. Although this is not what I would call a lean headphone.
* It's got good body in the mids contrary to what I've heard folks say
* This is a fairly well behaved headphone; no major treble nasties that I'm detecting
* SR307 is more polite (compressed?) with dynamics than HD800; HD800 will attack your face
* Midrange is forward, especially vocals
* When playing CounterStrike, can't hear as deep into space. Not as aware of surroundings. HD800 destroys it for gaming
* Also good for listening at low levels
* Hint of hissiness with vocals
* I am wanting for more stage depth
* SR307 has a great decay
* again, very clean
* I'm impressed by their ability to resolve vocals up front and clear even when there's a lot of energy being thrown around
* These can rock and roll pretty hard for a Japanese headphone
* Treble texture is a bit off
vs HD600
* HD600 might have better all around tone and texture, despite being much more laid back
* Sort of an artificially clean handling of transients; HD600 does it with just as much dynamics but more naturally
* These have more energy up top (8k and above if I had to guess) compared to HD600; tends to highlight cymbals better
* SR307 delivers more "gross" detail due to its tonal balance
* HD600 might just edge out SR307 in low level retrieval which is surprising
* SR307 just isn't swinging as high; isn't able to explode dynamically when the music calls for it
* HD600 allows me to hear deeper into the stage, Stax just aren't digging as deep.... fundamentally 2D sounding
* These are still fairly involving though, they keep me listening although the texture is not quite to my liking
* Although the SR307 is not polite tonally (not laid back), the dynamics are polite. HD600 packs way more of a punch
* HD600 is more fuzzy sounding, which is a plus for SR307. SR307 definitely has a cleaner sound
* The SR307 has a smaller color palette, meaning its ability to reproduce different sonic characteristics is stunted
* These have very high quality bass; well extended just not terribly impactful
* I'm still loving the vocal presentation of these guys, really impressing me there
* these have a tighter, cleaner presentation than the HD600. Better definition. Sharper edges so to speak
* These have an upfront artificial sound with pianos that is bothering me; HD600 piano rendering is more correct
Summary:
This is a good headphone/system. I can understand why people like the Stax because they offer some unique qualities. The tonal balance from top to bottom is reasonably neutral which is my first priority. These are fairly resolving too but not anywhere close to the HD800 in terms of technical capabilities. I feel the HD600 actually digs deeper into the mix too and offers a more natural/correct sound but just isn't as clean and sharp.
Besides that, the bigger factor in the way of people enjoying these headphones will be the Stax finickiness...dedicated amplification, sensitive diaphragm, limited excursion. For folks willing to put up with that, these are a good option if you like the sound. Recommending these as a value proposition is hard to do...I actually thought this system was a lot cheaper (<< $1000) while listening so I probably went easy on it in retrospect. But people should definitely check this system out to get a handle on the electrostat sound.
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Very insightful p:3
Thanks a lot for taking the time.
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Hmmm, I've got to get myself some time with a HD800 someday.
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Test Conditions:
Focusrite 2i2 Line-Out > SRM-323S Amplifier > SR-307
Focusrite 2i2 HP Out > HD600
vs HD600
+ Seems to me HD600 is more flat from upper mids to treble. To me somehow the SR-307s shows more energy in the lower treble region... or maybe it's all relative to the mids.
+ More impact form the HD600s, and definitively digs deeper in the lower frequencies.
+ More microdynamics from the HD600s.
+ Strings sound more "right" on the HD600s. Like OJ said, sort of more natural on the 600s.
+ There is some perception of "faster speed" in the SR-307.
+ Can see SR-307 becoming a little fatiguing after a while.
+ Voices seem to be placed a little behind the strings relative to what I hear form the 600s.
+ SR-307 can sound artificial, specially with male voices as strings get in the mix.
+ Bass is indeed of good quality with the SR-307s.
+ HD600s takes me to a live concert. There is some hollowness on the SR-307 that pulls me out.
Some measurements:
http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1820.msg49360.html#msg49360
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Ok, that makes sense. A little extra energy from 8-10k as I guessed. I think the mid-treble peak perceptually worse because it's preceded by a null in the lower treble.
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Yup. That's how I can best explain it as well.
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I know I need to buy another hd600 again
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So those who heard it? Not mid-bassy and tizzy like the 407/507?
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Bit tizzy perhaps. Not what I would consider mid bassy. Haven't heard those two models so references could be off.
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Didn't do a comparo side by side with the 407, but I would say is not mid-bassy either. Tizzy perhaps.
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So those who heard it? Not mid-bassy and tizzy like the 407/507?
Lol, what midbass? It has none. I think shouty in the Stevie Nicks range, not quite tizzy which I think is higher up. Close though.
If you listen at 30dB though, everything sounds flat. And boring....
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All I can add here is, if Lamdba was all Stax had to offer, I would never have become owner, even less sticked to it over the years. I never warmed up to these guys (although I mostly listened to the couple of gens. before X07 so maybe things have changed a bit). For me, Stax starts and ends at the Omega style series, including 009.
arnaud
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Going of memory, the 009 is leaps and bounds better than the 307. No doubt about that.
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One of my friends in India had an old Lambda (his treasure actually). I heard it first and that's what attracted to the Stax sound. But I did not experiment at all and went straight to the 007 mk1. Then I was lucky to trade my Audez'e LCD 3 for the 009. And as Arnaud and OJ observed, the music stops here.
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And as Arnaud and OJ observed, the music stops here.
Lol, not quite. OJ didn't say that. I know he prefers the HD800 to the 009 like myself and a few others do. The fact that you have to stop your music probably tells you how much the 009 is overrated!! :)p13 :)p13 :D ;) Haha, you fell right into that one. p;)
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I totally get why people would like the 009 over HD800 though. Or even the entry-level stats over a "humble" dynamic headphone like the HD600. They offer some unique qualities for playback and it's hard to say which is "superior" or "more accurate" in a absolute sense. But yeah, for me it's no question.
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And as Arnaud and OJ observed, the music stops here.
Lol, not quite. OJ didn't say that. I know he prefers the HD800 to the 009 like myself and a few others do. The fact that you have to stop your music probably tells you how much the 009 is overrated!! :)p13 :)p13 :D ;) Haha, you fell right into that one. p;)
Nice one Anax. Tell you what. I have both the HD 800 and the 009. There is no question that the 800's sound stage and detail is a step ahead of the 009. I still feel the 009 has better clarity to the music. The only thing I have not done is to mod the 800. Maybe I should do that. In fact I have ordered the material from Amazon but it takes time to come to India. I am open minded enough to test the modded 800 and come to the right conclusions. Until such time, the 009 does it for me.
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HD800 requires work on both sides of the phone. That said, it will never make actual music sound like a cloud or vapor floating in space if that's what someone is into as accurate or prefered sound.
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HD800 requires work on both sides of the phone. That said, it will never make actual music sound like a cloud or vapor floating in space if that's what someone is into as accurate or prefered sound.
Absolutely. I never expect the HD 800 with any and all modding to sound like the 009. I don't want that. Heck, the most enjoyment I get is actually the HE 6 running off speaker taps. I listen only to classic rock. Yes, the HE 6's sound stage seems "collapsed" compared to the HD 800. I did a really stupid thing last weekend by listening to Led Zep and Clapton, alternating each song between the HD 800 and the HE 6. I was "only" using the BH Crack for the 800. Yet the 800 won hands down on many items. But the visceral kick of the HE 6 is unparalleled in my experience with the cans that I have. Hence I decided to do no more comparisons but just enjoy what I have. It is fun exploring the sounds of the various HPs.
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The HD800's are very polarising with a love/hate relationship. I owned them 3 times, sold the last beater off that Marv sold to me, liked them sure, but never loved them.
While it is not necessary to feed the HE-6 speaker amp level current, it's complete inefficiency does rule out a lot of dedicated headamp's incapable of driving it to it's potential (minus loudness button equivalent bullshit for gain switch on some amp's), so it pretty much means experimenting and so far some integrated amp's are better driving it then any head amp out there.
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The HD800's are very polarising with a love/hate relationship. I owned them 3 times, sold the last beater off that Marv sold to me, liked them sure, but never loved them.
The irony in all this is that it's the highs emphasis of the hd800 that drew me away from dynamics and into stax (possibly once and for all)... Would have never happened at the time I owned HD650 and other AKG240, stax stuff sounded way too thin in comparison. But a couple of years of hd800 got my reference plane tuned perfectly for the omega 2 and subsequent arrival of the sr009...
Hd800 stage width is artificial to these ears, I'd take a stat fed with proper source material any day. Also, let's face it, no way a stock hd800 measures up to stats in the mids/highs, a mere ersatz. You then either fill the earcup with glasswool or start the search for the sacred graal amp that will alleviate (but never fully address) the issue.
I still have a lot of respect for what senn did on this one, but to me, that's no stat territory. Senn will prove it out when they release an updated orpheus...
Arnaud
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As much as I like the Orpheus, it's not a replacement or direct upgrade for an HD800. It still sounds like a stat (though less so than others) and not a dynamic. I consider the Orpheus the Stax 007mk1/2 killer.
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All I can add here is, if Lamdba was all Stax had to offer, I would never have become owner, even less sticked to it over the years. I never warmed up to these guys (although I mostly listened to the couple of gens. before X07 so maybe things have changed a bit). For me, Stax starts and ends at the Omega style series, including 009.
arnaud
This, very much so.
I had a 404 for a while. I liked it at first, then got sick of it, and quit stats for a few years, before coming back with the 007. There's no contest - the 404 sucks in comparison. I may even say "sucks period" but it's been quite a few years since I heard one, and I may be remembering the bad points more than the good. But, hearing your take on the 307, especially with regards to the artificiality of the mids and highs, reminds me of what I thought of the 404 a while back.
I also don't think there really is such a thing as "stat sound." Yes stats share some sonic characteristics, just as dynamics share some sonic characteristics, but I've heard enough and owned enough stats to say that they can be pretty different from one another. I agree with the relative lack of macrodynamics in a lot of stat-based systems (not all though), but then again I also can't unhear the inherent graininess and lack of low-level detail in most dynamic systems which prevents me from getting into most dynamic-based rigs (but again, not all).
I'd pick the HD600 over any Lambda (though I have a LNS lying around that needs fixing up which I'm looking forward to hearing). But, I'd pick a high-end 'stat over everything.
Crap, more fuel in the stat vs. dynamic debate - not my intention. I go back to lurking now p:/ Nice take on the 307 and it reminds me of a lot of what I heard in the 404.
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You should keep posting...nice to have good ears around.
I dunno why Stax have messed with the Lambda range the way they have over the past two generations. I know about your complaints with the 404 gen and I can tell you that you'd possible dislike the 407 range even more. The old Lambdas are great though, both the original and Nova generations. I think you'll really like the LNS.
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Stax 307+323S versus Koss ESP950+323S (Impressions of E90 amp included versus 323S)
Note: On certain tracks, the 323S seems to clip or inject static noise into the 307 and 950. So bear in mind impressions were with a defective review unit (Stax 323S)
Stax 307 (General signature)
These have a weird screaming resonance in the lower treble that bothers me with certain female vocals like Stevie Nicks and Madonna. Keep in mind I listen around 80-90dB. Some tend to think dynamics have grainy character to them. In the case of something like the 307, I think some Stax lack texture. These phones have a very plastic sounding timbre to them that sounds smooth at first till you realize it’s a coloration being forced upon all tracks regardless of the recording. This may sound more pleasing to some, but it makes it more difficult to be critical of what actually is happening from the mastering or studio end of things. Overall clean and fast sounding (apart from the amp distortion). While signature is overall very smooth, I find a troublesome treble peak in one of the worst possible places for me and the bass is severely anemic with very little if any impact or slam.
Tracks:
Cannonball-Supertramp
Keyboard, pianos and guitars sound rather plastic and synthetic. Bass is quite limp in the mid and upper bass regions. It is present but simply too anemic. Everything sounds more closed in than the ESP950 or HD800. The Koss 950 just opens up and allows the music to flow with ease by allowing air and space between instruments. You can hear trailing notes decay and terminate without running into other instruments or just being compressed into each other. The 950 has superior imaging and separation to my ears. It also has a more natural and superior timbre overall allowing better tonal contrast between instruments especially in the 307’s dead zones (bass valley and lower treble peak). Extreme extension could improve as well. The 950 sounds more relaxed to me but also more resolving, open and natural. The 307 has a sonic coloration that turns music into something that sounds like a children’s soundtrack produced on a plastic Hasbro device. Don’t know how else to put it.
However, the 307’s smooth coloration can make grainy vocals on tracks like this sound more pleasing, refined and forgiving. This smoothness is what gives the 307 an overall more refined signature where the 950 sounds more rough and gritty, almost lower-fi by comparison. So those who weight this quality over all the others I mentioned the 950 excelling at should consider them. For me, it’s just too much of a good thing and simply doesn’t provide enough gratification for the price point and promise of the supposed inherent technical advantages of a e-stat compared to other similar drivers, planars or dynamics.
Lucky Star-Madonna
The 307’s definitely sound light in the midbass. The ESP950 actually give proper body and weight to the midbass filling out a more balanced frequency response. 307’s make Madonna’s vocals and this song quite fatiguing for me. Just too bright. Putting 950s back on…everything is much better, natural and balanced. I’m ending this track evaluation after 2 painful minutes…
That said, the 307 does sound better and more pleasant with other vocals overall than 950. More continuous and coherent vocals are silkier but the 950s resolve textural gradations in vocals better but add too much grain by comparison. So in the battle of overly smooth versus overly grainy vocal stylings., the 307s win in that department.
Little Amsterdam-Tori Amos
Pianos are just too thin on this song. The 307 is missing a decent amount of harmonics and I would not recommend these to people that get great satisfaction from the complete resolution wood enclosed acoustic instruments (yes I know pianos are ‘string’ instruments).
On this track, 950 vocals come off a bit too hollow making them overly dry compared to the 307. This obviously is what is adding to that sense of vocal grit or grain making them sound too ‘crispy’. Once again, the 307 is more pleasant for vocals. Good thing Tori Amos is closer to Demi Moore than Stevie Nicks.
On the E90 versus 323S
People say the E90 is good enough. Get’s loud enough and all that jazz. Well is it? I don’t particularly like the Stax 323 either very much for the money especially once you’ve accustomed yourself to higher end amps like the T2 and Leviathan, etc. Heck, even my old Super7 was more technically resolving and microdynamic than the 323 for close to the same money and wasn’t tied Stax. Regardless, let’s find out as I have both on hand.
E90
Bass is quite soft. Vocals are very upfront and slightly shouty. There’s an ever present grain over everything making tracks sound sort of MP3’ish (like lower resolution). This trait combined with the signature of the 950 is not the best combination possible. Instrument placement is fine but imaging is very fuzzy and ambiguous. The E90 makes the 950 sound like a stock Oppo PM1/2 in that regard. However, it has much better air and spatial separation than those planars, just happens the edges of images sort of bleed out like a water color painting. It can’t quite close the frame on each instrument and complete the sonic picture. The E90 is also quite laid back and relaxed sounding in overall signature. Not a lot of macro dynamic punch and speed, or inner resolution to suck you in. This combination would be more for the less technical and more relaxed listener content to not spend a dime more than they have to. It plays music, simply nothing special or truly competent about how the E90 sounds. But if this is you, is there something wrong with your iPod or Sansa?
Stax 323S
Much smoother, more articulate microdynamics and better resolving power than the E90. Cleaner and clearer background. Images are more precise and complete as well. Still a bit boring for me dynamically and in resolving ability compared to my other preferred amps but the 323S is simply superior to the E90 in every way imaginable. Even if this unit is defective, it’s still clearly more competent.
Conclusion
Overall on the phone side, the 950 is simply more balanced and resolving than the 307 without any weird treble peaks or bass valleys. I simply find it overall more natural and more competent in various technical areas. However, if you prefer to have a smoother, more refined signature that makes all of your bass deficient and depressed female vocal tracks sound better, the 307 wins hands down. If your music has ballz or its female singers aren't dead or locked away in an asylum, the 950. On the amp side, the E90 can run off a wall wart or batteries but that’s about it. The 323 even steals its thunder by including its own separate L/R channel pots as well. But hey, the Koss system can be had for $600 new in box and has a lifetime warranty. All Stax owners wish they had anything remotely close to a lifetime warranty and decent reliable service outside Japan for the price they pay.
In the world of Stax, there is simply nothing better than paying a lot of money to be treated like crap. That's how the cool kids do it!! :)p5
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headbang Thanks... Very insightful. I hope to be able to give my own impressions soon ( Koss ESP950 , KOSS E90/ Stax SRM1/mk and Stax SR404)
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headbang Thanks... Very insightful. I hope to be able to give my own impressions soon ( Koss ESP950 , KOSS E90/ Stax SRM1/mk and Stax SR404)
Thank You. To be clear I do have two vintage Stax SRX mk3s that I like. I also LOVE the mids on the original Omega and think the 009 can be quite special when driven properly. Overall I do find the more modern Stax e-stat sound combined with the 'status' and relatively poor pricing and service to be off putting to me personally. I just feel the need to offer a counter balance to such disturbances in The Force.
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................ and think the 009 can be quite special when driven properly. ................
Anax, what have you found to be that set of upstream gear that drives the 009 well? From a personal standpoint, I'd like to leave the BHSE out of it. Thanks.
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Sorrodje, note there are differences between the 404 and 307. The impressions here aren't exactly compatible with what you have regarding those two HPs but might give you a general idea. Think HD650 vs HD600.
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Sorrodje, note there are differences between the 404 and 307. The impressions here aren't exactly compatible with what you have regarding those two HPs but might give you a general idea. Think HD650 vs HD600.
yep. i know that . I had a SR303 at home during a week last year. I prefered my HD800 but I've really appreciated the SR303 . it brings something really special to the table. the "Out of nowhere" sound and the Over-refinement ( aka preciosity ? ) was very enjoyable.
I know current Lambdas are quite different from the older. That's why I'm happy to find the 404 ( which is similar to the 303 ? ) . if all impressions I've read on the Koss is trued , i think the Koss is more what I look for but careful listenings will tell me. The Koss is not well known here in France so I'll write a review for our website.
I have the greatest respect for Anaxilus or other pyrates impressions but you know.. My ears are not his or yours and I'm able to elaborate my own opinion. And my opinion is sometimes VERY different from what I read on HF for example.
What's pleasing here is that impressions I read match more with mine though .
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These impressions interest me too and, as another new Koss owner, are useful with regard to possible future amp upgrades. Thanks Anax!
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Note: On certain tracks, the 323S seems to clip or inject static noise into the 307 and 950. So bear in mind impressions were with a defective review unit (Stax 323S)
Thanks for the write up Anax. Wondering how much credibility we can give your impressions if the amp was defective? Are you sure that whatever is wrong isn't impacting other areas of SQ?
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I thought the ESP 950 sounded amazing out of the SRM-717 which you can pick up for around $1k. The best stock amp I've heard from Stax --- if you can find one. I eventually gave up on the ESP 950s tho after sending the drivers back to Koss literally six times only to have them continue to squeal and crackle. I even got a second set on the secondhand market only to have the same problem. My house isn't that humid. It's a shame because these are phenomenal when driven well. Certainly better than the 'Baby Orpheus' (HE60) IMO.
In college I had a Stax Lambda Nova system that I got for well under $1k (both the amp and headphones --- used of course --- before the secondhand planar market became ridiculous). Even though I had it plugged into an old Aiwa CD player, I still count this as among my all time favorite systems I've owned. The sound lacked heft but it had this really unique quality of seeming to materialize out of thin air, something that made for an addictive listen.
I think used Stax gear is a great way to go for some people, provided they can find it at a reasonable price nowadays. Those old plastic Lambdas and Sigmas are quite durable aside from the gross foam.
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Thanks for the write up Anax. Wondering how much credibility we can give your impressions if the amp was defective? Are you sure that whatever is wrong isn't impacting other areas of SQ?
Yeah, I'm familiar with the normal 323 amp and heard a working unit from Darin at the SD meet after the loaner was sent back. The amps sonic issues were unrelated to my issues with the 307's signature. A conclusion I feel comfortable about after cross checking using various FR plots and comparing to my ESP950 on the same amp versus the E90.
Of course anyone is free to dismiss what I heard as plain bat-shit crazy. Wouldn't be the first time.
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SRM-323 is better than E90 w/ ESP950. I used to own the SRM-323. That being said, avoid SRM-323 if possible and spring for the 007, 727, 717, or a vintage SRM-T1. The SRM-323 never sounded quite right to me. Hard to explain, but it has a strange hollowish twangy coloration. The tubed 007 sounded better than I expected, and the SRM-727 is quite good despite STAX mafia's not unfounded concerns with it.
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And what about the Woo Wee or the STAX SRD7 ? Does it worth a listen ?
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marvey,
Out of the 007, 717, 727, and SRM-T1 -- do they sound similar, or is there a pecking order in terms of performance?
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Of course anyone is free to dismiss what I heard as plain bat-shit crazy. Wouldn't be the first time.
Thanks, just wanted to confirm that the unit was solid enough to count on for the comparison. I guess I should have assumed that, but let's face it, you are a little bat shit crazy.
I've never heard the 307 myself but I've heard the 323 and 950 so now I can get an idea now what they are like.
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Regarding Stax amps, I wouldn't flat out recommend one amp over the other...it depends on which headphone you plan to drive with it. For the Lambda series I generally prefer the tubed Stax amps because they help tame the brightness; for something like the 007, I prefer the 727/717/323 because of the increased power and driver control.
Don't be afraid to look on HF for pretty much any question you have regarding Stax. The Stax threads over there have tons of info and the participants are generally experienced in the hobby.
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marvey,
Out of the 007, 717, 727, and SRM-T1 -- do they sound similar, or is there a pecking order in terms of performance?
No pecking order. They all sound different. As n3rdling says, matter of matching with headphone and preference. Only thing I know is that I do not like the sound of the SRM-323. I think Anaxilus would agree.