CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Main Deck => Discussion for Registered Members Only => Topic started by: LFF on August 29, 2012, 12:32:05 AM
-
Frogbeats C4 = :-00 EPIC WIN :-00
(http://i745.photobucket.com/albums/xx92/FirePhoenixAudio/40001-2-P.jpg)
(http://i745.photobucket.com/albums/xx92/FirePhoenixAudio/40001-4-P.jpg)
-
These do look interesting!
http://shop.frogbeats.com/frogbeats-c4
Any comparisons to the UERM? Or even your UE-10 Pro?
-
They were just a retail outlet before right? And now they're doing their own customs? Very interesting!
-
These do look interesting!
http://shop.frogbeats.com/frogbeats-c4 (http://shop.frogbeats.com/frogbeats-c4)
Any comparisons to the UERM? Or even your UE-10 Pro?
Sure. The UERM is a fantastic CIEM. I was VERY close to ordering one but was hesitant because it lacked precise imaging and 3D soundstage. Now...that could be because they were not fitted for me. However, my UE-10 lacked that as well. The major difference between the UE-10Pro and the UERM was bass for me. You can totally EQ the UE-10Pro to sound like the UERM.
However, the C4 has CRAZY imaging. I have no idea how or why but it's soundstage and imaging is awesome. Blows away ever single CIEM or IEM I have ever heard.
They were just a retail outlet before right? And now they're doing their own customs? Very interesting!
Yes. When they contacted me about doing a review and agreeing to a no-punches held back honest review, I thought it was super interesting as well. I thought they were being very confident in their product. Hearing the C4, I can understand why. I seriously can't fault the sound quality at all. It's like a custom mini Paradox.
-
Nice, just after I order the IERMs a new king is elected. C'est la headphones
Interesting read a couple of clicks away from the frogbeats site:
http://www.sonion.com/~/media/Files/Academy/What%20is%20Balanced%20Armature%20Receiver%20Technology_rev002.ashx (http://www.sonion.com/~/media/Files/Academy/What%20is%20Balanced%20Armature%20Receiver%20Technology_rev002.ashx)
-
yeah screw you LFF .my UE IERM is the best..maybe. :)p17
and send me that damn stand already man..wait don't..send it after the 7th! :)p13
Seriously though, its spendy at its asking price..JH13 territory
edit: looks like that's the C5.
Wonder why they didn't offer to send that to you instead.
Groupo buy prices are very attractive. I would certainly be interested in one for the C5 if we can get 10 people! serious! :)p1
-
I hate customs. Any chance they'd offer a universal "demo" like FitEar?
-
Thanks for the review, LFF!
From what I understand, C4 are neutral while C5 have slight bass emphasis (mid-bass I suppose). Have you listened to the C5, and if yes, how do they compare to the C4?
I wanted to buy an UERM but your review is great news for me as it would be easer and cheaper for me to buy in Europe.
Anybody interested in forming a buying group? Sachu, I think I would prefer a more neutral signature than C5, unless C5 really perform better than C4 and doesn't deviate much from neutral.
-
yeah screw you LFF .my UE IERM is the best..maybe. :)p17
and send me that damn stand already man..wait don't..send it after the 7th! :)p13
Seriously though, its spendy at its asking price..JH13 territory
edit: looks like that's the C5.
Wonder why they didn't offer to send that to you instead.
Groupo buy prices are very attractive. I would certainly be interested in one for the C5 if we can get 10 people! serious! :)p1
LOL! Remember, I don't have custom UERM's and have only heard 2 universal fit demos and one small custom that fit my ear like a custom.
If you want to get a group buy going just talk to David Annez at Frogbeats. He might be willing to work something out.
I hate customs. Any chance they'd offer a universal "demo" like FitEar?
Perhaps...you would also have to ask David about that.
Thanks for the review, LFF!
From what I understand, C4 are neutral while C5 have slight bass emphasis (mid-bass I suppose). Have you listened to the C5, and if yes, how do they compare to the C4?
I wanted to buy an UERM but your review is great news for me as it would be easer and cheaper for me to buy in Europe.
Anybody interested in forming a buying group? Sachu, I think I would prefer a more neutral signature than C5, unless C5 really perform better than C4 and doesn't deviate much from neutral.
I have not listened to the C5. I wish I could have had a test of the C5 to offer a comparative review.
I highly recommend the C4. I have been trying to fault them in an area or more for the past two weeks and I simply can't! :-00
-
From the pictures, It looks like a dual CI/TWFK combination, like the UM Mage :)
-
Hey guys! David from Frogbeats here...
Thought I'd chum by (I've lurked these forums now for a while, less and less time to be an active poster) and answer some of your queries.
Few things I'd like to clarify firstly, with regards to prices:
I realise the prices are higher than what you would get in the US, however we were basing our prices on the UK/EU market, where CIEMs in general are much more expensive (just look at the UM prices in the UK, or ACS for a 3 driver CIEM -- retailing at £699 for a 3 driver). It's very hard to match pricing from the US (even with normal retail products like we have stocked for a year) so we try to do our best to keep it on an even playing ground. What I mean by this is that for the price hike we'll try and get the best quality out of the products, and importantly, the service provided.
Anyway, enough blabber, I just wanted to "try" and justify the prices. It has been a huge uphill battle releasing these, but we are confident they are going to shine.
The C5 does have more bass than the C4, however I wouldn't move it out of the general "neutral" area. It is still a neutral CIEM (I have it), just that it has that bit more oompf. We thought we'd vary our product selection with the mid product being the completely neutral one so that artists that maybe can't afford the high end can get the best one for monitoring.
The point of the Frogbeats Customs is not going for the maximum number of drivers, but rather the best options for the drivers we offer. The C5 has the same configuration as the ES5.
The reason LFF didn't receive the C5 is because I have followed his reviews since he started writing them on HeadFi and have noticed a general trend in liking complete neutrality and so I thought it would be more appropriate to send him the C4s rather than the C5s... I think I might have made the right decision! The other reason is that we want 3 completely different views on the Customs from 3 different sources, so the opinions are honest, unbiased (we hope) and gather different followings. The C3 has been sent to Mark2410 whom we've had a long relationship with in reviewing our normal retail products, and the C5 is being sent to AverageJoe. The costs it has incurred on us to get the samples means that we simply can't afford giving the 3 models to each reviewer. Not now anyway. Main reason why we are literally completely out of stock on the website of anything else :( Makes me sad.
As for a universal demo .... This is something that has come up extensively now and I'm working on seeing what can be done about it. Right this moment it's not a possibility (because we've barely got the Customs out of the door), but I'd say near future anything can happen (as well as universal IEMs...). I'm willing to dig deep and try anything new with Frogbeats, so happy to hear suggestions about anything really.
Group buys.... http://customs.frogbeats.com/group-buys
That's a general idea of what the group buys can get you. However we're more than happy to hear out requests about discounts and better group buys (if necessary, however I think they are quite reasonable in comparison with other companies).
Individual discounts will be available on official launch and if any of you guys want to know about them (I never like advertising or posting on forums about discounts) then email me or PM me about them. The official launch should be no later than this Friday with a newsletter. Frogbeats' goals are to try and make the CIEMs available to as many people as possible.
-
Thanks David!
You call the C5 high end and not the C4. So, I gather the C5 is not just a different flavor than C4 and should be better. What is the superiority of the C5 over the C4?
-
Thanks for the info, David.
The C4 sounds really intriguing to me, as it satisfies the two things I look for the most in a listening device: a relatively linear sound signature and very holographic / spatially well-defined presentation. The latter issue has kept me from exploring the UERM.
My biggest issue however is that I just really dislike the whole "customs process." I've had bad experiences in the past with audiologists and fit issues (my ears seem to transmutate every few weeks and change shape... lol...).
I'm definitely looking forward to any headway you make on getting a universal version of these. I'd definitely recommend looking into it. Right now it's an emerging frontier, what I call "universalized customs," and a lot of people on head-fi have asked me about products like the FitEar TO GO, which is basically a custom-type shell and same multiple driver array that is given a universal shape. Also Heir has launched some universalized customs recently.
They'd be really, really popular I bet.
For now I'll consider getting some ear impressions made if I hear more positive feedback on these. :)p1
-
Thanks David!
You call the C5 high end and not the C4. So, I gather the C5 is not just a different flavor than C4 and should be better. What is the superiority of the C5 over the C4?
I think there was a general misunderstanding here. Both are high end products and sound great, but naturally the C5 is our top-tier model so we've worked on making it the best out of the 3. However take the "best" remark with a pinch of salt, as with everything under the audiophile world, this is purely opinion based and you might find that people think the C4 is better.
At the end of the day, these are different sound signatures so there's no fair way to compare. The C3 and C5 have similar signatures, just that the C5 is a good bit better (hence the price and number of drivers).
As we've wanted to get these out to reviewers first, I've held back on manufacturing 3 for myself to give you direct comparisons, so I can only go from the dummy shells I tested a while back. Superiority isn't a word I would use, but the C5 has a better bass extension and tends to have a fuller sound. Marginal differences at best, which is why it's the sound signature change that is the important point. When it comes down to that, it's a matter of opinion rather than what is best.
@ MuppetFace
I completely understand your issues with impressions and fit, and I have some strangely shaped ears which has always made universal IEMs a problem with me (and I've been through hundreds now from the start of Frogbeats). I had fit issues with moulds I got from ACS, and was wary about the process again, as I am sure you are. However I went to a new audiologist and discussed the impressions in depth to get the best ones possible and my C5s fit snuggly without an issue. Ears do change over time, but every few weeks?! That sounds crazy. It wouldn't surprise me, however, that that has something to do with the temperature of your surroundings. There is a noticeable change in fit when you're cold or warm. I guess all I can say is that a better audiologist might be your best bet, but finding one is always an issue!
I am sure they would be very popular, which is why as soon as I can sit down and have some time to think through the options I'll look into it all and see what we can do about it.
-
Thanks for the clarification, David: on the Frogbeat website it was unclear whether the C4 was inferior to the C5 or just a different flavor.
I have no experience with customs and just a little with IEM (got a pair of Shure 530). I don't know whether I will experience fitting problems like MuppetFace but I'm willing to take the chance since the sound is great (there aren't that many products highly recommended by LFF ;)) and exactly what I'm looking for.
Anybody in Changstar interested in a group buy for the C4? ahoy
-
Thanks for the clarification, David: on the Frogbeat website it was unclear whether the C4 was inferior to the C5 or just a different flavor.
I have no experience with customs and just a little with IEM (got a pair of Shure 530). I don't know whether I will experience fitting problems like MuppetFace but I'm willing to take the chance since the sound is great (there aren't that many products highly recommended by LFF ;)) and exactly what I'm looking for.
Anybody in Changstar interested in a group buy for the C4? ahoy
That move was essentially deliberate. We want people to make their minds up based on unbiased and clear reviews of the products, rather than us classifying them as "superior" or "inferior". It's hard to do so with CIEMs and we don't want to start causing a stir when people think the C4 is better than the C5 or vice versa. We've tried to be as objective as possible when selling other companies earphones and will maintain the same stance with our own Customs. I've been an enthusiast for a long time and the last thing I want to see is "better" and "worse" categories being listed on the site. One is more expensive, yes, and is our "flagship" but what that means, can be interpreted differently by anyone.
We are planning a more descriptive page for the Customs, but it's been hard work up till now so I'm trying to collate everything and get it all down and ready.
-
I would have liked ot listen to this..kinda spendy to buy blind for IEMs given how many choices are out there.
If we can get a group buy going for the price they have advertised, which works out to about 600$..i'll seriously consider the C4.
"what's that you got there matey??"..i've got C4 in my ears chum! How cool is that"..barring the being arrested for scaring people into thinking you got plastic explosive in your ears lols
-
The fact that they asked LFF to do a pulled-no-punches review shows what confidence they have in their products -- considering how candid he can be for shitty products (HD700, Audeze).
The fact that LFF is so floored by these things has me interested now. The price is surprisingly reasonable too all things considered. (EDIT: silly me, converted Euro rate and not GBP rate).
Dammit, I don't need two pairs of customs. Must resist.....
If this 10+ group buy were to happen, I'd opt for the C5 since it seems like more of a counter-point to the UERM. I seriously hope there aren't 9 other people interested. I should be saving money.
-
I'm lurking so hard in this thread right now.
-
Maybe David can answer this...
Would the group buy be valid if we ordered a variety of models? Say... 2 C3s, 5 C4s and 3 C5s? Or is it only valid if we order 10 of the same model?
-
The possibility of us matching the group buys for less than 10+ (for the larger discounts) is completely in the books right now. We want the launch to be filled with orders and excitement, so happy to adapt around what is given to us in terms of groups purchasing. So maybe 7 orders will still get the 25% off.... who knows ;)
@ Questhate - Yes, absolutely. Should probably be made clear, but we want these options and prices to be accessible to a larger number of people, so the group buys include all models for the quantities stated. :)
-
The possibility of us matching the group buys for less than 10+ (for the larger discounts) is completely in the books right now. We want the launch to be filled with orders and excitement, so happy to adapt around what is given to us in terms of groups purchasing. So maybe 7 orders will still get the 25% off.... who knows ;)
@ Questhate - Yes, absolutely. Should probably be made clear, but we want these options and prices to be accessible to a larger number of people, so the group buys include all models for the quantities stated. :)
I hate you right now..well maybe my wallet mostly. bah! :)p2
-
Guys...just want to make an important note...you need to find a GREAT audiologist to take your impressions. I went to one of the best and the impressions cost me $75 + gas. It was well worth it.
As for the C4...I'm still :-00 .
I have heard good CIEM's like the UERM and JH-13 but the detail, neutral presentation, and spatial definition I get with the C4 is just awesome. :)p1
-
I'll get some feedback from AJ about the imaging and 3D space relative to his UERM. I get much better imaging and precise SS from how I hear my UERM versus any of the non RM demos. I know Shane55 has the UERM and UE10 and my impression is he feels they are worlds apart and not just bass differentiated. Jude said the same of his UE10 versus the IERM when I talked to him. Somebody at the last mini-meet also had the UE10 and thought it sucked as well in comparison. Just some impressions I got from others.
Any plans on a full silicone shell? Something I've been dying for in top end, uber resolving custom.
-
Guys...just want to make an important note...you need to find a GREAT audiologist to take your impressions. I went to one of the best and the impressions cost me $75 + gas. It was well worth it.
As for the C4...I'm still :-00 .
I have heard good CIEM's like the UERM and JH-13 but the detail, neutral presentation, and spatial definition I get with the C4 is just awesome. :)p1
You go to Jerry Harvey's gal in Beverly hills?
-
Guys...just want to make an important note...you need to find a GREAT audiologist to take your impressions. I went to one of the best and the impressions cost me $75 + gas. It was well worth it.
As for the C4...I'm still :-00 .
I have heard good CIEM's like the UERM and JH-13 but the detail, neutral presentation, and spatial definition I get with the C4 is just awesome. :)p1
You go to Jerry Harvey's gal in Beverly hills?
Yeah. She's in Santa Monica now.
-
I managed to get impressions off a fantastic private audiologist here and they only cost $30. Previously I went to David Ormerod (the main audiologists in the UK) and they did a pretty terrible job of it. Knowledge of audiologists across the UK is scarce, however, so not sure how many options people have here.
In the US it sounds as if the prices are much more expensive for impressions.
@ Analixus
No silicone shells planned yet, will look into it but with our current manufacturing line I doubt it will be possible without massively expanding (completely different production methods).
-
When you go to the audiologist, make sure he / she has experience with doing ear impressions for CIEMs. The audiologists where I live all mostly suck, and I had some very bad experiences as a result.
Insist that they look at your instruction sheet provided by the manufacturer who will be making your customs. Make them actually LOOK at it. I've heard so many stories about---and experienced for myself---audiologists not bothering to look at the instructions and snidely telling customers they "know what they're doing" because they've worked on hearing aids. Hearing aids aren't the same deal, no matter how much they may insist! Healthcare professions can be very smug and dismissive and convinced that their way is best, refusing to listen. Also don't let them pass you off to less skilled trainees.
The last audiologist I went to ignored the instructions and cast the impressions. When she screwed them up, she tried to put the blame on me, claiming to her boss that I never mentioned the instructions which was a blatant lie considering I repeatedly asked her to look at them. The boss himself was a complete lunatic, and ranted and raved about the instructions because they insisted cotton tips be used instead of foam. He was convinced there was no difference and was infuriated that he was put out by having to track some down. He also ranted about how expensive the customs were and how the company, located in China, was trying to "make money off of [his] work!" and how you can't trust the Chinese.
Obviously most audiologists wont be that patently insane, and that's really the most extreme of my experiences, but I cite it as a warning to make sure you speak up for yourself and don't let them get away with doing a half-assed job. I ended up having to pay for BOTH the first mistake impressions and the second correct impressions. Cost me $140 for the two. I could have contested it, but I was upset over the experience and wanted to get out as quickly as possible. You'd certainly be well within your rights to demand a do-over or refund as a result of their refusal to listen however. Just play it safe and make sure they know about CIEMs and have at least some experience with them and not just hearing aids. Even then, make sure they look at those damn instructions!
Getting your impressions returned or having to get a refit sucks and the shipping gets quite costly, so make sure you do everything you can to get the best possible impressions before hand as LFF says.
-
Wonder if its possible to request impressions from UE that they took at the meet a few weeks back ..might be worth sending them an email.
-
Wonder if its possible to request impressions from UE that they took at the meet a few weeks back ..might be worth sending them an email.
It might be possible, UE scans them digitally too and stores the molds in a warehouse. I got mine back from Westone and they were superb molds done by their chief audiologist Michael West. Here's an article he put out about earmolds.
http://www.audiologyonline.com/articles/article_detail.asp?article_id=2343 (http://www.audiologyonline.com/articles/article_detail.asp?article_id=2343)
-
The C4 - it's explosively good.
-
When you go to the audiologist, make sure he / she has experience with doing ear impressions for CIEMs. The audiologists where I live all mostly suck, and I had some very bad experiences as a result.
Insist that they look at your instruction sheet provided by the manufacturer who will be making your customs. Make them actually LOOK at it. I've heard so many stories about---and experienced for myself---audiologists not bothering to look at the instructions and snidely telling customers they "know what they're doing" because they've worked on hearing aids. Hearing aids aren't the same deal, no matter how much they may insist! Healthcare professions can be very smug and dismissive and convinced that their way is best, refusing to listen. Also don't let them pass you off to less skilled trainees.
The last audiologist I went to ignored the instructions and cast the impressions. When she screwed them up, she tried to put the blame on me, claiming to her boss that I never mentioned the instructions which was a blatant lie considering I repeatedly asked her to look at them. The boss himself was a complete lunatic, and ranted and raved about the instructions because they insisted cotton tips be used instead of foam. He was convinced there was no difference and was infuriated that he was put out by having to track some down. He also ranted about how expensive the customs were and how the company, located in China, was trying to "make money off of [his] work!" and how you can't trust the Chinese.
Obviously most audiologists wont be that patently insane, and that's really the most extreme of my experiences, but I cite it as a warning to make sure you speak up for yourself and don't let them get away with doing a half-assed job. I ended up having to pay for BOTH the first mistake impressions and the second correct impressions. Cost me $140 for the two. I could have contested it, but I was upset over the experience and wanted to get out as quickly as possible. You'd certainly be well within your rights to demand a do-over or refund as a result of their refusal to listen however. Just play it safe and make sure they know about CIEMs and have at least some experience with them and not just hearing aids. Even then, make sure they look at those damn instructions!
Getting your impressions returned or having to get a refit sucks and the shipping gets quite costly, so make sure you do everything you can to get the best possible impressions before hand as LFF says.
Sounds like you've had a hellish time with audiologists. Not cool! You're right about them reading the instructions and making sure they understand them. Luckily my audiologist and I had an indepth discussion about it all and what his thoughts were on the instructions and how he was going to do them. Interesting to see audiologists take on the instructions given to them. He was opinionated on it, but was more than happy to just stick to them and make sure they were done right, as he had plenty of experience with other artists. That's really the key, as you've said, make sure they've done CIEM impressions, or are willing to follow the instructions to the letter.
@ Tari - That's a fantastic line for it... Can't believe I never thought of it!
-
Looks interesting.
I'll have to consider this line up for my future CIEM purchase.
-
The C4 - it's explosively good.
:)p13
Indeed it is.
-
Luis, would you consider them good for mastering?
-
Hello David,
Please send the C5 to LFF so we can be sure it's as good with just a bit more oopmh like you describe. Sorry but I don't trust the other guys.
-
Hello David,
Please send the C5 to LFF so we can be sure it's as good with just a bit more oopmh like you describe. Sorry but I don't trust the other guys.
I'm sorry to hear that you don't trust the other reviewers, but I do, and so do many others. I want other opinions on the other CIEMs before we start sending out all the models to the same reviewers. I'm well aware comparisons need to be made and that reviewers should be able to hear all 3 of them, however we decided this format to get the most exposure to begin with.
If you want to pay for his C5's, then please by all means ;) But the manufacturing process costs us money and we don't have that sort of extra cash to splash around until we're selling them. Hard truth, that.
I want the same as you, I'd love LFF to get his hands on the C5's right now, but there are certain obstacles in the way that cannot be passed with a flick of a finger right now.
-
I'm believe LFF should be dropping by one of these days for measurements on the C4. I'm sure they measure well because I trust his ears. Unless I calibrated my equipment specifically for the Paradox...
-
Luis, would you consider them good for mastering?
With regards to the C4. No. They are not good for mastering. They are EXCELLENT.
I was using them a few days ago to master/restore a master tape late at night when using other headphones would be a no-no.
-
If the guys return them can't they switch or they are offered ?
I had the jh16 but it turned to be worse deal I ever made, soundwise it was good. Even though I got them for 650€ when the euros was going strong I had fit issues and their customer service was beyond awful. I lost count of the time I sent it, they never read my description of the problem and would do the wrong retouch and even sent it one time with the wrong drivers so I just sold it.
Being in Europe and personally participating in the forums gives me confidence so I'm definitely interested.
Hows the refit policy and how long it takes ? Also is there a possibility to have the molding silicone tips similiar to what westone has ?
-
If the guys return them can't they switch or they are offered ?
I had the jh16 but it turned to be worse deal I ever made, soundwise it was good. Even though I got them for 650€ when the euros was going strong I had fit issues and their customer service was beyond awful. I lost count of the time I sent it, they never read my description of the problem and would do the wrong retouch and even sent it one time with the wrong drivers so I just sold it.
Being in Europe and personally participating in the forums gives me confidence so I'm definitely interested.
Hows the refit policy and how long it takes ? Also is there a possibility to have the molding silicone tips similiar to what westone has ?
Not really possible with CIEMs and reviewers. Once they are given to the reviewer, they are theirs to keep and we can't really take them back and make any use of them. So it's not really a benefit to us to ask for them back and replace them with another model. In addition to that, we'd rather the reviewer had all the models side by side to do a comparison.
Sounds like you have had an awful time with JH, which is surprising, but there are always cases, granted.
Love to participate directly with customers and be straight up front, few companies do that nowadays and it annoys the hell out of me. We're pretty transparent when it comes to everything so you're welcome to ask as many questions as you like.
The refit policy is 30 days from receiving the CIEM we will refit for free. Shipping costs on you, naturally. After that it will be about 50EUR (just doing a quick mental currency switch here) to refit.
We will not be supplying silicone anything with the CIEMs due to the hard process it takes to merge silicone and hard acryllic and create a perfect and seamless connection between both. The truth is it's an unstable method and can lead to cracking and problems, so it will always be full acryllic shells.
-
@psychadelic whale
Westone doesn't use silicone tips to be clear so there isn't any misinformation about construction quality. It is Vinyl specifically chosen for it's properties which are more resilient if you read the link I posted earlier. They have the sole patent and proprietary knowledge of how to fuse the tips and shell together to my knowledge.
Myself and purrin heard the C4's today and even thought we could not get a proper seal we both know where LFF is coming from. Things like imaging are impossible to know using someone else's custom but timbre, tone, balance and clarity were very positive aspects that a properly experienced IEMer can gather under these less than ideal circumstances. I would like to hear how well they image and how transparent and resolving they truly can be. I'm always looking for that last bit of information retrieval.
We did snag a measurement and the channels match very well which hopefully will be maintained on a production level and not just for reviews. ;)
-
I would like to confirm that these are a win! Actually a hair clearer sounding than UERMs. I wouldn't recommend that UERM owners chuck them in the garbage and order these, but I do feel the C4s should be a serious consideration. Measurements very very soon.
-
David, what are the characteristics of the bass boost on the C5s? (magnitude, q, starting point)
-
David, what are the characteristics of the bass boost on the C5s? (magnitude, q, starting point)
I'd be interested too.
I might be buying a custom in the near future.
-
It's not so much a bass boost. The C5 has a lower sub bass range. We've still kept it fairly flat in comparison to the C4, however it has a wider frequency response - as shown on the details. I am well aware that requests for frequency response graphs and the sort will be thrown out there, but I'd like to clarify now that we won't be supplying such graphs and it will be up to the discretion of the reviewer to do so (and to clearly comment that frequency response graphs differ from what you hear and what you perceive).
The main reason for that is that it causes pointless arguments about what people see on the graph and what they actually hear, and it's a completely negative outlook for us and a pain to start arguing back and forth. As seen with several threads on HeadFi, frequency response graphs lead to more issues than clarifications. What you hear is what you hear, and if someone says they are great, then there is no need to start analysing a graph and diluting it to the bare essentials. If someone says they are bad, then same applies!
Hope you guys understand. More than happy for reviewers such as LFF to post stuff like that up measured with their own equipment, but CIEMs are a touchy issue with this as they can change from one to another from the manufacturing process (as can colours, shape, etc).
-
What a man says sounds good can sound like utter crap to another, the difference in the ear anatomy from one person to the other are big enough, measurements are the ONLY way to judge a particular piece of equipment's sound objectively. It should be research first and then subjective impressions, not the other way around. Many people can't simply try them to see if they like them before buying, much more so in this case.
-
What a man says sounds good can sound like utter crap to another, the difference in the ear anatomy from one person to the other are big enough, measurements are the ONLY way to judge a particular piece of equipment's sound objectively. It should be research first and then subjective impressions, not the other way around. Many people can't simply try them to see if they like them before buying, much more so in this case.
I do agree with this in principle and I wish more manufacturers released more data on their headphones but...
Due to the complexities of measuring headphones there will be plenty of idiots who don't know how to interpret the data properly who will then whine endlessly about what they don't understand. Given that, it's pretty understandable why most manufacturers don't provide FR graphs.
-
I agree with you also, but I'm not criticizing their decision to not post graphs but it was just the "if someone says they are great, then there is no need to start analysing a graph" part that didn't fit too well. No disrespect meant for the manufacturer , I certainly appreciate them being more up-front with their customers.
-
It's one of the reasons why I provide commentary with each graph. I really think it's necessary to have the subjective angle and specify whether things indicated on the graphs are heard or not.
-
I agree with you also, but I'm not criticizing their decision to not post graphs but it was just the "if someone says they are great, then there is no need to start analysing a graph" part that didn't fit too well. No disrespect meant for the manufacturer , I certainly appreciate them being more up-front with their customers.
You're right, probably not the best sentence from myself.
maverickronin put it quite nicely. The main issue is if there was a null point in a certain frequency area, something that is not noticeable to the human ear, people would start crying out and noticing tiny, unnoticeable issues with the FG. It's fine if a graph is analysed with complete objectivity, but that's not really possible in this world. If we were to show frequency graphs and then try and justify them, it would make us look as if we're trying to defend the product rather than allow people to make their own minds up from professional reviews. Which is why I put trust in people like LFF, Joker, purrin, etc. They can be subjective and objective when they need to be and allow a clear divide to be made from their own opinions to what can be seen on graphs.
I have never been a fan of promoting our own product without proper justification behind it, and my justification is the opinion and thorough examination from reviewers. Rarely do we emphasise or create unwarranted hype on products without somewhere or someone to back up our claims. The audiophile world is a very critical area, and that's why I much prefer real professionals reviewing our products and coming to their own conclusions on them. Be they negative or positive ones, at least it's not our own biased view that comes into action.
In all honesty, we'd be uncomfortable posting our own subjective opinions on our own products because I don't claim to be a complete professional and as knowledgeable as the likes of the people I mentioned above and more. I've listened to plenty of earphones in my lifetime and analysed a good number and have a good ear, but I still don't feel I'm at any level to call myself a reviewer or a pro with these sort of things. So we let the big boys do the talking for our products :)
How do you guys feel about testing out our new "create your CIEM" website that I will be releasing shortly? I'd like to run it through dummy tests before it gets released to the world and I think you guys would be the best people to test it out.
-
Sounds good. I'll run whatever you have through the ringer. Bring it!
-
I don't really need graphs, I'm just trying to gauge the response as the bass-boosted BA IEMs I've heard tend to overdo it. A modest boost of, say, 6db would be nice, provided it dissipates not much past 200hz. Am I in the neighborhood?
Create-an-IEM sounds both awesome and dangerous. I'm looking forward to seeing how its implemented.
-
How do you guys feel about testing out our new "create your CIEM" website that I will be releasing shortly? I'd like to run it through dummy tests before it gets released to the world and I think you guys would be the best people to test it out.
Sounds pretty awesome to me.
-
http://customstest.frogbeats.com/products/1-frogbeats-c4
Big work in progress, naturally. However the important functionality is there and the base options exist. The colors are representations (close to exact of the dummy shells we have of each color) but as you should know with CIEMs no two are the true same, so it's to give you an idea. The prices aren't correct right now, as I was just testing it all. The clear canals option and logo option need to be fixed so you can actually see what you are selecting. Then there will the normal options such as "rush order". There are some customisation options that won't be available to preview such as glitter options, but the rest will be up there.
The cool thing is you can view your artwork on the CIEMs when uploading them (using the new HTML5 file object - if you care to know that). Now of course it's a complete gamble because you could essentially upload anything, but we'll set out guidelines for the preview so you can preview something that is a plausible artwork image.
The system won't work without javascript, of course, but the prices calculated cannot be manipulated on the frontend of the site, so I will create a non-js fallback (not that many browse without js enabled).
I wanted to keep it simple, engaging and helpful rather than some incredibly snazzy and complex system... so this is what I came up with. The cart and checkout also work, but it's in development mode so don't try and purchase anything. Welcome to try and break it and test it out.
Let me know your thoughts! Eagerly waiting for LFFs full review to be posted up as well.
-
30 pounds for a different faceplate color seems a bit too much for me, other than that I did manage to make a pretty good looking IEM.
-
Could you change the label from right shell to right channel ear shell or something similar? It's a little confusing for newbs to customs that the right shell color applies to the left shell on display which is really the right ear channel.
Black shell/plate seems to be wrong color.
Could we also have a colored canal option to go w/ other shell combinations too or is clear canal only possible?
-
Could you change the label from right shell to right channel ear shell or something similar? It's a little confusing for newbs to customs that the right shell color applies to the left shell on display which is really the right ear channel.
Black shell/plate seems to be wrong color.
Could we also have a colored canal option to go w/ other shell combinations too or is clear canal only possible?
Yeah, I was thinking it was slightly unclear which was which seeing as they are photographed facing you. That's a good suggestion, can easily do that.
The black night is a poor colour name, it needs to be changed, but the shell colour is the correct one. The C4s that LFF received were designed specifically for him and that's why that colour isn't in the line up of options. Naturally if you want to make a colour request it can be done, but as with most companies, we are giving people the default colours to pick from first.
As for the canals, right now we're only offering clear canals. That might change in the next few weeks depending on what we decide.
@ wiinippongamer
Ignore the prices right now, it should be £15, I was just messing with prices.
-
Have you gotten around to measuring these yet, Marv?
-
How would you go about using someone else's CIEM? As in how did Purrin hear this thing anyway?
-
He can still put them in his ears and apply some pressure to try and get a decent seal but it'll still be far from the ideal sound quality that they can produce.
-
LFF's full review is out at HF. Anybody there to form a group buy?
-
Wow these seem really amazing, your review was so super detailed it blew my mind :P
I wish i had the money though, been wanting customs for a while :/
-
Wow these seem really amazing, your review was so super detailed it blew my mind :P
I wish i had the money though, been wanting customs for a while :/
:)p13
If you want a more detailed review, look for my C4 review at head-fi.
Flowery BS and endless detail isn't necessary here. :)p2
-
Good to hear that all is not poo in the headphone world. Order has been placed. Now, the horrible waiting begins. :(
-
Lol and I was so set on getting UERM's... I'm going to try and get the ball rolling on a group buy for these thingies on head-fi :)p1.