CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => Headphone Measurements => Topic started by: Marvey on November 03, 2013, 05:08:20 PM
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I got the stylish white colored edition.
The measured slight bass drop is less than it is with real life. Being a larger supra aural, it wasn't possible for me to get a perfect seal. It measures well, but there are some funky internal reflections stuff going on. Dynamat, acoustic stuffing, Creatology, etc. should yield gains.
- The 4k distortion spike (and probably 8k ringing) is noticeable and not pleasant (but not horrible).
- Lots of bass slam. More than is indicated in the measurements.
- They are light and comfy - once I bent the headband so there's less clamping pressure.
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CSDs
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Thanks for measuring these.
It killed my curiosity a bit as the 5% 2nd harmonic distortion at 4kHz is a bit much, this seems to be a driver problem (or enclosure ?) :-[
Maybe I am wrong and modding brings out the best in them.
The peak around 7kHz seems to be reducible (quite easily I might add) but wonder if that were done mechanically (felt of sorts) if that would reduce the adjacent band as well.
The whole 'treble' area seems to be verging on 'trouble' judging from the CSD.
Maybe it isn't as bad in reality though.
As shipping these things from the USA costs more than the whole headphone itself I will skip this one (unless it becomes available in Europe) but am told they are not going to sell these in Europe.
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Thank you very much ! I was expecting little better results... and Solderdude is right D2 distortion is driver problem, nothing gona cure this, but they are still good cans for the price
Would you mind to try removing cups and measure this way?
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Thanks Marv. Looks like a nice modding candidate. Once I get them I will be putting them into some wood shells and experiment with damping and better pads.
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Would you mind to try removing cups and measure this way?
I will try to do an open driver measurement.
As far the the distortion, I am not gonna bitch at $24 shipped.
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As far the the distortion, I am not gonna bitch at $24 shipped.
Yeah, one just has to look at the D2 spike of the HE-400 (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1127.msg29907.html#msg29907 (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1127.msg29907.html#msg29907)) at 4kHz and consider the price of these cheapies ... The FR looks nice enough.
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Thanks a lot, purrin. I too wonder if the ringing is somehow fixable, has anyone played with adding mass or doping to large mylar drivers?
These are more than worth the asking price just for their bass performance, I think.
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In the scheme of things, it's not horrible. LCD-X ($1699) has a very similar 8kHz spike. Felt in front of the driver would be a good idea, although 7kHz is on the low boundary of felt's treble reducing effects.
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That looks pretty damn good for the price. Should be a good candidate for modding. I have some random pads I can try on it. Curious to see if the HM5 pad works, as I've had good luck with that on other headphones. I'm going to order a pair.
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That looks pretty damn good for the price. Should be a good candidate for modding. I have some random pads I can try on it. Curious to see if the HM5 pad works, as I've had good luck with that on other headphones. I'm going to order a pair.
I think they will not fit, earcups are not oval :)
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The cups are 90mm in diameter, if you have a pair handy and a piece of cardboard you can do a fit test.
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I'm really surprised by that sharp increase in 3rd order distortion going into the lower bass frequencies. -27.65dB on D3 is ~4.2% THD, which is comparable to the KSC75 http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,231.0.html (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,231.0.html) sub-bass distortion on D3. My personal comparisons against the KSC75 and KSC35 were that the TH-02 mopped the floor with them in terms of sub-bass performance.
Is it possible that the seal wasn't great with that in mind and also the greater perceived bass slam?
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That looks pretty damn good for the price. Should be a good candidate for modding. I have some random pads I can try on it. Curious to see if the HM5 pad works, as I've had good luck with that on other headphones. I'm going to order a pair.
I think they will not fit, earcups are not oval :)
I've fit them on circular headphones before.
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I'd be absolutely thrilled if they fit.
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Thanks, Purrin. Any chance you'll be grabbing whatever the 39.99 model is when it comes out? Heard the guy mention it in Tyll's Tascam RMAF video. Apparently it's intended to be more neutral/studio/professional.
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The cups are 90mm in diameter, if you have a pair handy and a piece of cardboard you can do a fit test.
Took the baffle out and set it on a foam donut over the microphone. Maybe about 0.7cm above the microphone / coupler plane.
Attached are the results. There definitely is some resemblance to the driver in the cup, although the main peak looks shifted down in frequency about 1.5kHz when the driver has no enclosure behind it. The null is about in the same spot (it really isn't a null, it's actually another peak according to the CSD.)
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That's interesting and quite different from what you get if you just remove the cup back covers (yeah, I know these are not coupled to anything). It would seem velours could help level the lower treble a bit. These still don't look as ugly as many other closed headphones.
I'm still wondering what would happen if one were to dampen the cheap plastic baffle with dynamat or the likes, maybe the ringing would shift up instead?
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The ringing wouldn't change - it's very much a driver material, surround, motor characteristic.
BTW. I already damped the baffle, the cup, and the back of the driver with dynamat. Stuffed acoustic fiber in the cups too. No more cavern reverby effect. Also used 1 layer TP between the pad fabric and front of driver. The TP worked better than other materials in reducing the 7-8k peak, while retain as much last octave air as possible.
Measurements forthcoming. It sounds pretty darn good. Unfortunately, I don't think anything can be done to fix the bass distortion.
P.S. I suspect using Jerg technology on the pads may yield some gains in reducing the 1k bump, smoothing things out, and providing a better sense of openness.
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Here we go:
BEFORE
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1203.0;attach=4351;image)
AFTER
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1203.0;attach=4413;image)
BEFORE
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1203.0;attach=4355;image)
AFTER
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1203.0;attach=4415;image)
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The ringing wouldn't change - it's very much a driver material, surround, motor characteristic.
BTW. I already damped the baffle, the cup, and the back of the driver with dynamat. Stuffed acoustic fiber in the cups too. No more cavern reverby effect. Also used 1 layer TP between the pad fabric and front of driver. The TP worked better than other materials in reducing the 7-8k peak, while retain as much last octave air as possible.
Measurements forthcoming. It sounds pretty darn good. Unfortunately, I don't think anything can be done to fix the bass distortion.
P.S. I suspect using Jerg technology on the pads may yield some gains in reducing the 1k bump, smoothing things out, and providing a better sense of openness.
I think bass D3 distortion went down like 10 dB! Thing seems very nicely balanced too!
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Nice work, Marv. I like what I am seeing. There is definitely quite some modding potential. Pads, enclosure, open vs closed, acoustic filter material in front of the drivers ...
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Nice!, overall distortion went down quite a bit as well...
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Some wood overkill for these ...
Sound is quite impressive for drivers that price. Great bass, balanced sound, ringing at 7k audible but not really bothersome. Was afraid they could be too trebly. but they aren't. At least for me.
(http://www.head-fi.org/content/type/61/id/966883/width/500/height/1000/flags/LL)
(http://www.head-fi.org/content/type/61/id/966879/width/500/height/1000/flags/LL)
(http://www.head-fi.org/content/type/61/id/966881/width/500/height/1000/flags/LL)
(http://www.head-fi.org/content/type/61/id/966884/width/500/height/1000/flags/LL)
(http://www.head-fi.org/content/type/61/id/966880/width/500/height/1000/flags/LL)
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Haha. You never cease to amaze me. I do like these cheapy drivers a lot.
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I do like these cheapy drivers a lot.
So do I. Very capable and there is not much they do wrong.
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lol nice!
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Wow, great job!... Are those still the stock pads?... I'm aching for a pair of better pads for mine.
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Purrin - where does one get small quantities of Dynamat for modding these? I'm considering getting these to top off an order on Amazon soon.
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I got myself an entire roll of dynamat lite type stuff at Home Depot. It was in the roofing material section. $25 for 20 pound roll.
Or you could go to Worse Buy (with a car audio section) and get 2 square feet for $30.
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Purrin, are there any specifics on the kind of toilet paper that is optimal?, 2 sheet?, 3 sheet?, fluffy or firm?, any?
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Are those still the stock pads?... I'm aching for a pair of better pads for mine.
These are Brainwavz HM5 pads. Tried stock pads, Hifiman velours, Alpha pads, etc. The HM5s had the best synergy. You can use them on the stock frame, might just have to use some tape around the rim to get a perfect seal.
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Purrin, are there any specifics on the kind of toilet paper that is optimal?, 2 sheet?, 3 sheet?, fluffy or firm?, any?
I used a good quality single-ply. Feel free to experiment. I also tried a paper towel: lowered treble but also killed too much top end air.
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I also tried a paper towel: lowered treble but also killed too much top end air.
I have made the experience that acoustic filters in front of the driver are no miracle thing that can repair too much of a high-end bite. If you go for too dense a material, you will cut high-frequency spikes all right, but you will end up with a thick, muffled and congested mess. If the material is not dense enough, it won't have the desired effect. You have to strike the balance here, and no filter in front of the driver can correct a f**ed-up top end. At best you can fine-tune a high end that is just moderately off.
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post removed...
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Microfiber cloth does wonders to reduce treble in that area as well. I just snagged a pair of these to mess around with. Any chance you could snap a photo of the inside, Marv? I'm sure once I have the headphones in front of me, I'll be able to see where you put the Dynamat. But if you wouldn't mind taking a photo or two, it would be much appreciated!
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Any chance you could snap a photo of the inside, Marv?
http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1188.msg32081.html#msg32081
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I was more interested in the position of his modding material. Good pics though!
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I'll take photos tonight. I just sort of quickly attached a few strips here and there.
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I got myself an entire roll of dynamat lite type stuff at Home Depot. It was in the roofing material section. $25 for 20 pound roll.
Or you could go to Worse Buy (with a car audio section) and get 2 square feet for $30.
Interesting. I was kind of looking for a slightly smaller quantity than that, but I guess I can use the leftovers in my car system.
About how much is in a 20 pound roll?
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If Marv meant something like this... http://www.homedepot.com/p/W-R-Grace-4-in-x-75-ft-Vycor-Plus-Flexible-Flashing-5003100/203057402?N=c5rw#.UnsLlVNV-AY
...about 25 sq ft.
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Photos of the tweaks. Quick and dirty.
I may decide to put a layer Creatology foam over the back of the cups on top of the dynamat type material.
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Awesome, thank you!
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Huge thanks purrin for measurements, nice work :)p1 :)p1 :)p1
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There's an imbalance in the 20-50 Hz range due to the strain relief working as a bass port (right channel rolls off earlier), which is specially pronounced if you seal the pads with electrical tape like I did. These would benefit from a proper bass port, so... any input on the ideal placement, diameter, damping would be greatly appreciated!
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I'm really digging these cans. I didn't have any dynamat, but I had some Acoustipack left over from my T50RP's and I just slapped a disk on each side. The supra-aural fit drives me crazy (takes me about 5 seconds to sit them just right on my head) but once they're in place, I'm jammin' out.
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@purrin: Have you tried measuring them without the rear cup?
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Yes, see reply #16.
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I think he meant with the lids (each held by 3 pins) removed but the baffle still mounted to the cups and the earpads on and coupled to the instrument. This results in a slightly boosted midbass response, more recessed but cleaner mids and clearer highs in my experience.
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$20 ??????
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In case someone wants to correct it using a very simple electronic filter below the schematic
(http://diyaudioheaven.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/tascam-th02-filter.png?w=761)
Of course it only corrects FR in a coarse way and doesn't remove resonances and distortion.
I also noted some values in there for those who 'Purrinfied' one and would like to address the few dB lift in the mid region.
Wow, nice one! Not sure how to read the schematic though =/. Is it possible to make a filter for two bands at once like 200Hz and 10kHz? Why is it resistors and stuff sound better than regular software EQ anyway?
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Because you are using a shitty software EQ?
Easy to make a filter for two bands - just add another EQ circuit in series. It gets hairy very quickly though.
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Because you are using a shitty software EQ?
Easy to make a filter for two bands - just add another EQ circuit in series. It gets hairy very quickly though.
I typically use whatever EQ my favourite sounding media players come with. Perhaps the advanced ones sound just as good as hardware eq.
There is an aversion to all forms of EQ in high-end audio for reasons not well documented, the only transducer I know of which has attempted to 'fix itself' with an included proprietary equalizer is this one http://www.dsp-earphones.com/
If you're an iOS person, I'd be very interested to know what you think of how they sound actually.
Sorry for the off topic.
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I think he meant with the lids (each held by 3 pins) removed but the baffle still mounted to the cups and the earpads on and coupled to the instrument. This results in a slightly boosted midbass response, more recessed but cleaner mids and clearer highs in my experience.
Correct. I'm curious to see how these would work out as open-back headphones (possibly also with polyfill)
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No measurement rig but I'm pretty sure they work alright with an open back, maybe with a little more (paper) damping at the back of the drivers to lower the bass distortion, though I'm not sure the gain in resolution and air would be worth the loss in isolation. Try for yourself, I find the change kinda subtle with my rig.
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Has anyone tried putting larger pads on these yet (aka circumaural)? I would like to try some, but I don't know where to start.
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stratocaster mentioned the hm5 pads should fit, they are comfy and generally sound good wherever you put them.
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I have a pair that should be in by the end of the week. I still can't believe how well these measure after mods relative to, say, the Abyss (understanding that doesn't tell the whole story, of course). I'm excited to see what they can do. I have some HM5 pads I can try out (always do!).
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I put on my rotting SR-80s for shits last night and they sound decidedly low-fi and wonky in comparison. It's not all rosy, though, these are not up to par with $150+ open cans (hehe), I A-B'd again against some old DT990's and while I enjoy listening to these more than the beyers, they do not quite match up in some ways. I know the comparison is kinda unfair but I don't have any other closed cans handy.
If you are sensitive to treble issues you most definitely will want to take care of that peak, while not wholly bothersome and fatiguing like the Beyer treble, it does turn out to be distracting with certain kinds of music. Also, if you find the midrange somewhat veiled or the voices a little too back in the mix or not well defined, you will want to boost around 3 KHz because these are barely DF EQ'd. I cannot stand headphones tuned to the recommended 12dB peak, but a 3-5 dB boost I do find beneficial with these.
Have fun!
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Marv lent me his TH-02s. They are plenty good, though I had some problems getting seal. They also seemed to fit me a bit too low even with the cups pulled all the way up.
I still felt a bit of wonky mids, but less than some other closed cans I've heard. Bass was well extended and clean when I got decent seal. To my ears the overall balance is on the laid back side of things.
Awesome :)p1 for the buck.
Some results (compare with after (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1203.msg32464.html#msg32464)):
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1203.0;attach=4413;image)
Frequency Response
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1203.0;attach=4690;image)
Distortion right
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1203.0;attach=4692;image)
Distortion left
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1203.0;attach=4694;image)
CSD right
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1203.0;attach=4696;image)
CSD left
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1203.0;attach=4698;image)
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I saw stratocaster's custom cup, but do the pads fit well on the stock cups?
Thanks for the comparative measurements, ultra!
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I will test the HM5 pads for fit on the stock headphone when I get it Friday night.
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Here is the plot for another great sounding cheapy
(http://diyaudioheaven.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/evo-chinese-pads.png?w=1046)
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I had some problems getting seal. They also seemed to fit me a bit too low even with the cups pulled all the way up.
The trick is to sit them over the upper-back part of the pinna where they don't exactly feel right or most secure, but after some warmup they will wrap, sound and seal better. The fit does get better with wear, but is not ideal by a long shot, specially considering the pad diameter (they sit a little too much over my cheekbone).
Thanks for the graphs!, did you try them with the lids off?. They are most easily removed if you unsecure the upper area first (by the hinges) and then pull it open like a door against the lower pin.
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Welcome lads.
The trick is to sit them over the upper-back part of the pinna where they don't exactly feel right or most secure, but after some warmup they will wrap, sound and seal better. The fit does get better with wear, but is not ideal by a long shot, specially considering the pad diameter (they sit a little too much over my cheekbone).
Thanks for the graphs!, did you try them with the lids off?. They are most easily removed if you unsecure the upper area first (by the hinges) and then pull it open like a door against the lower pin.
Didn't try to remove the lids. I think these might benefit from Jerg pad technology for both acoustics and seal.
I will test the HM5 pads for fit on the stock headphone when I get it Friday night.
:)p1 :)p1 :)p1
Here is the plot for another great sounding cheapy
Are those the modded HD681-EVOs (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,977.msg25111.html#msg25111)? Pretty cool!
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Didn't try to remove the lids. I think these might benefit from Jerg pad technology for both acoustics and seal.
So I went ahead and tried a partial jergpad mod (just the damping holes) and I must say that I regret it, tried from 30+ down to 4 holes (around 1mm in diameter) and no matter the configuration, the bass level was too diminished and the impact that I have become quite fond of was nowhere to be found. I then proceeded to duct-tape the very hurt pads back to normality. Maybe with other pads.
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Dunno if the HM5 pads will help with seal and comfort. Hopefully Hans030390 will chime in.
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I did try the HM5 pads with the stock cups. The pads are a little larger, but when the pads are new and the rim is not stretched too much, you can use them. I used electrical tape to improve the seal and it worked nicely.
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Dunno if the HM5 pads will help with seal and comfort. Hopefully Hans030390 will chime in.
Fedex failed at delivering my package today. :(
But I'd expect I will have little different to say than stratocaster on the matter.
c61746961, thanks for trying that out! Perhaps this just isn't the right headphone to benefit from jergpad technology, though it could just be the particular pads as well. I probably won't hack up the HM5 pads based on your results, though.
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I've now had a chance to play around with these. Stock, they actually sound really damn good for $30. Even despite the price, they don't have very many major issues. Problem is, I couldn't get a seal with them unless I pushed them against my head. That doesn't do me much good.
HM5 pads definitely fit the stock enclosure. I think those pads give them a slightly darker sound. They are much more comfortable and make getting a proper seal easy.
I took to modding. My current configuration is on the warmer, laid-back side of things, but still not lacking much in detail and openness of the sound. Fairly clean sounding overall despite the warmth and additional bass. I don't mind the dip around 4-5KHz, as it makes it easier for me to listen without fatigue. It's much better than having a peak around that area for me. I can handle 7-10KHz peaks more easily. My configuration is as follows:
1. Layer of Dynamat in back of cups
2. Layer of Creatology foam on top of the Dynamat (in case you're wondering, it's purple)
3. 4 inch-ish long strips of Creatology foam and 2 half-inch-ish strips on the next area above the bottom of the cups, pushed into the corners (it's around half way up to the top of the cups)
4. Fairly thin disc of acoustic stuffing (feels sort of like polyfill) in bottom of cups
5. ~1/2 inch thick disk of what feels to be a medium density packing foam on top of that
6. Dynamat on back of driver magnet, covered with a layer of Creatology adhesive felt (non-stiff kind)
7. Ring of Creatology foam around driver on front side baffle, with a disc of foam or felt on top of that (glued at edges to the foam ring)
8. HM5 pads
I'm very impressed with this headphone and driver, and I'm enjoying what I'm hearing. It's headphones like this that make me wonder why I bother spending more on headphones sometimes. I also wanted to note that for whatever reason, it sounded better to me to put the acoustic stuffing under the foam disk than vice versa. I also had to use very little stuffing with the foam disk in there. I also don't remember exactly where I got the fabric/felt disk I placed in front of the driver. I think it came with a spare pair of ear pads I ordered a while back, but I've ordered too many different ear pads to know which pair it was. Or it came from a stock set of ear pads that I swapped something else for...
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I'm glad you're enjoying these too ;), the HD681 EVO are probably more competent for the price, but, as illustrated in Solderdude's guide, they take a whole lot of work to get the most out of them. These, however, are more readily available in the whole of America and pretty easy to fix.
I don't mind the dip around 4-5KHz, as it makes it easier for me to listen without fatigue. It's much better than having a peak around that area for me. I can handle 7-10KHz peaks more easily.
Based on this graph:
(http://cdn.head-fi.org/4/43/400x800px-LL-430fae81_audeze_RR1_G.PNG)
...and Tyll's measurements I went ahead and EQ'd as follows:
Peak 1
CF: 30Hz
Q: 0.3
Gain: 3dB
Peak 2
CF: 3200Hz
Q: 1.1
Gain: 4.0dB
Peak 3
CF: 5700Hz
Q: 1.3
Gain: 3.0dB
... to approximate a watered-down Olive-Welti target. The midrange peaks help with perceived resolution and imaging, I added just enough to avoid stridency at my listening levels. I also compensated for the ~7KHz peak because sometimes it does get in the way.
Now I need to figure out how to order a pair of HM5 pads without PayPal :/
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Thanks for the modding notes, hans. I still need to play with these more. Today I took the backs completely off and c61746961 is right, they sound pretty sweet like this. It seems like there is a midbass hump, as mentioned, but I think I had similar results with the backs on (with dampening foam stuck to the bottom). I think it would be sweet to grind off the outside of the backs while maintaining the clips and then attach a red metal screen. They work pretty well as open cans, that's for sure. Where is the best place to buy the dynamat to stick to the driver magnet? I thought about using some blue tack that I have on hand, but it's not as dense as I understand. Looks like I need to get the HM5 pads.
EDIT: As a last resort for pads I have on hand, I threw the Shure 840 pads on, and while they are on the large side, I'm enjoying the sound so far! The cans are still open, but they aren't as dark anymore.
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c61746961, not sure where you're located, but Sonic Electronix sells a version of the FA-003/HM5 and spare pads as well. They just go under a different brand name. They even have angled versions of the pads. Might be an option...don't think they require PayPal.
Thujone, you can get 1'x1' square sheets online for pretty cheap. Check Amazon and eBay. Sometimes folks have some on hand they'll part with. Alternatively, look for a similar material at Lowes or Home Depot. It might be re-badged as a product for sealing the roof on RVs and such. They all have that similar black base material and generally have the foil topping as well.
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c61746961, not sure where you're located, but Sonic Electronix sells a version of the FA-003/HM5 and spare pads as well. They just go under a different brand name. They even have angled versions of the pads. Might be an option...don't think they require PayPal.
Ordered, thanks!
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Just got these in. I'm noticing a lot of treble bite (more than the plots seem to indicate) and some midrange weirdness. Bass is good though. I'll try to measure them myself tomorrow.
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Here's my own plots of the TH02 w/ and w/o TP. I stuck it in the pad instead of putting it on the baffle. Very satisfied with the sound now. Still a bit "snappy" and the midrange congestion is still there. If larger, more comfortable pads can maintain this same sound more or less, I'll be pleased.
(http://i.imgur.com/a48MVPc.png)
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Marv lent me his TH-02s. They are plenty good, though I had some problems getting seal. They also seemed to fit me a bit too low even with the cups pulled all the way up.
I still felt a bit of wonky mids, but less than some other closed cans I've heard. Bass was well extended and clean when I got decent seal. To my ears the overall balance is on the laid back side of things.
Awesome :)p1 for the buck.
Some results (compare with after (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1203.msg32464.html#msg32464)):
Frequency Response
Distortion right
Distortion left
CSD right
Now... wouldn't it be interesting to try these with MrSpeakers Alpha Pads?!!?? :-p (if the HM5 fit, the Alpha Pads would probably fit as well...)
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Last I checked, the HM5 pads were noticeably smaller than the Alpha Pads, hence the reason folks had so much difficulty originally getting the HM5 pads on the T50RP. The HM5 pads already border on being slightly too big for the TH-02.
That said, there is an angled version of the HM5 pads available here: http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_66627_NVX-XRE100A.html
Different brand, same thing. They also have the non-angled versions.
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I cut 4 smallish jergpad-style holes on the bottom of the HM5 pads and added a very tiny ring of the fiberfill damping material directly behind the driver in addition to my prior mods. Subjectively, this brought back some of that missing midrange detail and might have made them less bassy and warm, though I do not know if measurements would reflect this.
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Where did you order your HM5 pads from? I ordered mine from mp4nation forever ago and still haven't received them.
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I'm not sure. I've ordered several pairs from various locations in the past few years. I remember mp4nation taking several weeks.
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I'm waiting on mine from them as well. Are there other good options? Preferably from Amazon?
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See my link above. They have the non-angled ones in stock. I've ordered stuff from them before without issue.
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Got my stuff from SonicElectronix, int'l shipped without issue.
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whatever happened with the mx2 model? Has anyone reviewed those?
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I'm wondering that myself. It's just that guy over at HF who likes them a lot better than these.
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I got them. I don't exactly remember a lot of differences between the both. The MX2 has a better seal as the pads are more oval and thicker than the TH02's. I had a hard time getting a seal on the 02's but also needed to do some modding to stop resignation and TP it so the treble wasn't so perching to me. Over all after the modding it sounded good but I del that the MX2 was just a personal favorite. It has a similar sound just with a better seal for me.
Hers a link to what I shared:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/654946/tascam-th-02-headphones-waiting-to-be-discovered-now-appreciation-thread/105
I think I was talking to you and another person about it.
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Here's what I came up with. This is stock vs HM5 pads + TP in front of drivers.
(http://i.imgur.com/5yBmrRK.png)
Hans wasn't kidding when he said the HM5 pads were laid back. But also more open and less 2D. They seem to shift that camel hump in the bass down an octave. As a result, there's a much warmer tilt to things. HM5 pads seem to have less slam though. If there's a way to make the bass more linear and impactful, I'm all ears.
TP does seem to be less effective shelving the treble with these pads. I'm thinking the screens are the dominating factor as opposed to my half layer of TP.
Since I've taken a break from these for a while, the first thing I noticed when donning them was the weird midrange coloration. For whatever reason, it's more apparent to me now than originally. It really does sound like a lively loudspeaker cabinet. I think it actually bothers me more than the 8k peak at this point. I'll open up the enclosure and see what I can do about it on Saturday. :)p2
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Nice, thanks! A few things I've done that may or may not help the response with the HM5 pads:
1. Plenty of internal damping. I went back and added a bit of acousta-stuff (fiberfill-ish) on top of my existing couple layers of damping.
2. Cutting four holes in the bottom of the pad, jergpad-style. This in particular seemed to make them less laid-back sounding and might have helped a bit with the big dip.
3. Taping the edge of the pads around where they've slid into the baffle to the rest of the headphone with electrical tape.
4. I don't use TP in front of the driver but rather some sort of fabric/felt that I got from another set of headphone pads. Can't remember which, though.
The way I see it, I couldn't get a seal with the stock pads at all. No bass, meh sound. They've definitely got some additional coloration to them with the HM5 pads, but the fact that I get a seal at all makes a huge improvement. Much of the inherent "downsides" to using the HM5 pads with the TH-02 can be minimized with the right mods, I think.
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The way I see it, I couldn't get a seal with the stock pads at all. No bass, meh sound. They've definitely got some additional coloration to them with the HM5 pads, but the fact that I get a seal at all makes a huge improvement. Much of the inherent "downsides" to using the HM5 pads with the TH-02 can be minimized with the right mods, I think.
Agreed. I sure hope the next stage of mods can improve performance with the HM5 pads. If I can't get it to sound good with these new pads I ain't going back to stock. Seal wasn't bad for me, but comfort was unbearable for long sessions. The pads' coloration is second hand to the enclosure's coloration for me.
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If you do cut any holes in the pads, start with 2 small holes and make incremental changes as needed. I think the four holes I made are just slightly too much. But, hey, they certainly don't sound as laid-back or thick in the bass now as they did before. (I went a few days without listening to them after these mods, did a bit of listening again last night.)
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FWIW, BMF's T50RP measurements display the same artifacts (http://cdn.head-fi.org/3/39/393856a9_DmitryDBVLeft003PadsMosInnerTubeMod.png) with the FA-003 pads and are somewhat ameliorated with the use of tape (http://cdn.head-fi.org/b/b0/b065fa99_DmitryDBVLeft003padstapedon.png).
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Good to know. Won't bother taping until enclosure damping is in place
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It's probably more important to seal the area where the donut is stitched to the flap than to seal the flap to the enclosure. I wonder if one could use ring cut from a medium sized balloon instead of electrical tape, since the latter will most likely peel the pleather off with time.
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Have any of you tried simply taking off the back panel and listening? I'm digging that configuration right now with HM5 pads. With stocks pads, it moves the peak down to ~6k like purrin noted. Listened before I measured and thought it was a lot brighter. it's actually not according to the plots. Guess I'm more sensitive around that area or whatever. Red is no backing.
(http://i.imgur.com/kxDEXBx.png)
HM5 + no back are rewarding to my ears. Much more transparent midrange. Enclosure weirdness seems to be mostly gone. Decay plots seem to verify so. Actually, they indicate the headphone is storing a lot less LF energy but there's some hashiness that appears around the upper midrange when the back is removed. Anyway, here's the FR. Blue is no back.
(http://i.imgur.com/vkoUVNV.png)
Have yet to try taping the pads down. And all these plots have TP in front.
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Wow, that's really interesting. It seems that the back+stock pads causes some reflections that boost the treble? It's bizarre that the HM5's don't have a similar effect. Either way, when I was listening with the backs off, it definitely seemed like a warmer headphone with boosted bass. I guess that's because I am sensitive to treble and I was actually noticing the treble decrease more than the bass increase. I added a detachable cable jack to the pair that I had and I gave them away as a gift for Christmas. I'll need to get my hands on another pair (seeing as my HM5 pads finally showed up) and put a red grill on the back :)p15
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The TH02's good bass qualities stay in place with the backs removed. So I think these drivers would be a good candidate for a transplant into some sort of open enclosure. If only I had a CNC mill on hand...
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Yeah, that would be unlistenable for me. Your pair is still showing a good 5dB more at ~8k than mine ever did :-00
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Oooopsss.
I still had my testrig set for on-ear measurements.... (was making Kramer mod measurements on PortaPro when these finally came in)
Corrected now... have learned not to 'rush' things. :-[.
(http://diyaudioheaven.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/th02-b.png?w=614&h=324)
(http://diyaudioheaven.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/th02-csd-r.png)
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Ahhh, that looks much better. I'm glad you got a pair of these, I'm interested to see what you do with them :)p5
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OJNeg, have you made any other modding discoveries with the TH02?
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I haven't tried to do much more with the TH02. Partially because I'm busy and partially because I lost (listening) interest in them. And also because I let my old man borrow them so he could run his hearing tests.
I actually did give them a listen a week ago after a long break from them. Out of my Zune (which tends to be a bit warmish) they were very fatigue free. Wasn't able to pick up much of that 8k peak.
Taping the pads did seem to improve bass, but I haven't confirmed with measurements. I really like the bass on these for a $30 headphones; seems that most other cheapies have high distortion + rolled off bass, but these things are solid down low. But the driver's intrinsic treble abilities are not great and I'm not sure what the next step to improving the TH02 in those aspects would be. Open to suggestions that would get me back on track though
I actually found out one of my close friends has a 3D printer on hand. I might try to convince him to make cups and do a driver transplant. That would be a whole 'nother can of worms though :)p6
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Hi all
I just got my tascams. Straight out of the box, I can say that the seal is really bad with stock pads. There's a fair bit of bass gone and vocals sound nasal. Removing my glasses and pressing a bit solves the problem so I'm planning to getting the HM5 pads to replace them with (unless someone else has a better suggestion). BUT, I have never expected this kind of quality for their price. I agree with OJNeg that they're free from fatigue. I guess I need more time to evaluate the sound of course, but I'm already impressed.
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I hated the fit (couldn't get them to fit correctly) and also the comfort was bad.
The sound... well let's just say I don't think it sounds as good as many find it to be.
So I transplanted the drivers in an old Beyerdynamic DT330 housing, played with various pads and materials and electronic filters and ended up with this:
(http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/zz296/solderdude/th02vsmodified_zps7ce4863a.png) (http://s837.photobucket.com/user/solderdude/media/th02vsmodified_zps7ce4863a.png.html)
red/blue is transplanted and orange/green is original TH02 the traces are set 10dB lower so it doesn't look messy.
Much more comfortable and better sounding.
(http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/zz296/solderdude/csdorigvsmodified_zps4c4c57cc.png) (http://s837.photobucket.com/user/solderdude/media/csdorigvsmodified_zps4c4c57cc.png.html)
CSD above... original R channel (green) and modified (red) are overlayed so the differences are easier to see.
TH-02 driver on original baffle (filed down in size) that fits in an open Beyerdynamic DT330 housing.
Over the driver there is 3mm thick woolfelt on top of that original T50RP pads.
To lower the bass an electronic filter is used.
This is something I can live with.
Lively sounding, warmish full bass and good treble level, non sibilant and pretty detailed.
Still not as good as some other headphones but a pleasant listen anyway.
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That's awesome! I actually ended up with another pair of these recently and found the HM5 pads I had sitting around fit very well. I may have to experiment more with the stock cups but the DT330 housing sounds like a great idea!
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Wow, thanks for that. I've been thinking of a driver transplant as well but it's hard to find old cans here. Do you think removing the back covers and replacing them with a mesh (basically turning them into open cans) is a good idea?
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has there been any news on how good the mx2's are?
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Do you think removing the back covers and replacing them with a mesh (basically turning them into open cans) is a good idea?
I did some measurements with the original TH02.
Once completely stock, and once with the back completely removed.
(http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/zz296/solderdude/closedversusopenback_zps4e5c3fa6.png) (http://s837.photobucket.com/user/solderdude/media/closedversusopenback_zps4e5c3fa6.png.html)
as you can see the differences are rather small.
Open cups seems to lower the area between 1kHz and 4kHz somewhat.
You get more or less the same effect by adding damping materials inside the cups behind the driver.
Possibly reflections ?
For me the comfort and fit issues were the biggest ones and didn't like the overall sound that much.
It becomes obvious when comparing it directly to a 'reference' phone.
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I love how punchy they are, and their frequency response is quite good, but there is definitely something that I can't put my finger on... the timbre is a little off.
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Do you think removing the back covers and replacing them with a mesh (basically turning them into open cans) is a good idea?
I did some measurements with the original TH02.
Once completely stock, and once with the back completely removed.
as you can see the differences are rather small.
Open cups seems to lower the area between 1kHz and 4kHz somewhat.
You get more or less the same effect by adding damping materials inside the cups behind the driver.
Possibly reflections ?
For me the comfort and fit issues were the biggest ones and didn't like the overall sound that much.
It becomes obvious when comparing it directly to a 'reference' phone.
Thanks for this. When I removed the back cover I did think the FR didn't change so much but I think it removed a bit of the weird resonance I think I'm hearing. I've already ordered HM5 pads to fix the fit, so hopefully that solves the seal problem. I bought the TH02 mainly as an experiment in modding and stuff like recabling. (I have a dt1350 for "serious" listening)
I love how punchy they are, and their frequency response is quite good, but there is definitely something that I can't put my finger on... the timbre is a little off.
I think it's because of the dip in the upper mids. I've tried using an EQ to bring them out and they improved.
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Changing pads will change FR.
The strange behaviour in the top seems to be partly from the reflections from the cup and tan effect of the pads.
Placing felt on the inside of the cups improves this aspect slightly.
The considerable dip (10-15dB) in the 4k area and spikey/ragged behaviour up top makes them sound much more than a little 'off' to me.
This dip is seems to be caused by the pads and wasn't able to remove it.
Have to admit that I did not modify the pads which may help somewhat but NOT 10-15dB I reckon.
EQ-ing improved tonal accuracy but as the headphone distorts heavily (see Marv's plots) in that area this distortion also becomes more obvious.
The driver itself is partly to blame and seemed to improve its behaviour when heavily damped with felt in front of it.
Maybe diaphragm breakup or standing waves ... who knows.
In the open DT330 housing and with T50RP pads + felt it seemed to sound acceptable to me with some EQ to compensate for the loss of highs by the felt.
Tried SRH840, SRH940, DT770, DT990, old DT990 pads, Wang Yifei pads, Superlux pads (2 types of pleather and 1 velours), AKG pads and a few others but with all of these it became so much tonally off it wan't correctable any more.
Didn't measure those though and did the 'tuning' by ear.
Only after I finished I measured the results.
Pads made a HUGE difference.
In the end I don't think it has become a great headphone just a decent one that sounds better than some higher priced offerings.
At this pricepoint I still prefer 'corrected' Superlux models over the modified TH-02.
When one is happy with the sound (before or after mods) is really all that counts.
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Wow, you'd be the first person to find some use out of the stock T50RP pads! :)p17
For the $16 (amazon), these are a great value and a really fun/easy modding project. I have no idea how to mod to recover that upper mid dip though...
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Indeed. IMO they sound decent enough stock and I've been wanting to learn more about modding before spending more on a t50rp. I think solderdude's blog also has a filter circuit you can make to bring out mids.
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The T50RP and TH02 share a similarity and that is they have a similar dip around 4-5kHz (similar in shape and attenuation) and a similar peak around 9kHz.
It is there that all similarities end, well perhaps comfort may also be called poor on both.
The TH02 has bass extension where the T50RP lacks a bit there.
The T50RP is not as 'jagged' up top and rolls off above 10kHz where the TH02 shows another peak around 15kHz, extending further than T50RP on both sides of the spectrum.
I have used the T50RP correction filter on the TH02 (as I use that on the T50RP, don't like it without EQ)
While TH02 is tonally more accurate with that filter, compared to stock, it also enhances the 5% distortion spike and doesn't sound quite right (shouty) where the T50RP goes from 'laid back' to tonally accurate, very airy with smooth highs and detail as the T50RP can be corrected quite nicely.
If you like the tonal balance of the TH02 the T50RP is the logical next step.
You will find there is substantial difference between them when comparing these two directly.
At least there is to me...
Similar to the TH02 you cannot make the T50RP tonally accurate with just pads and mods, at least not with the materials I have around here.
Yes, You CAN make them sound more pleasant and balanced with mods and can reduce the dips and peak but not in a way that is good enough to my ears.
Yes, many people are very satisfied with modded T50RP's without using EQ, just not me.
The TH02 is a great product to play around with and get some experience with modding as it reacts quite a lot and has potential for improvements.
IMO some Superlux models can give 'better' results for about the same price.
No matter what one does to the TH-02 it will never reach the sonic quality of the T50RP because of physical differences between the driver types alone.
Just my opinion of course.
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The T50RP and TH02 share a similarity and that is they have a similar dip around 4-5kHz (similar in shape and attenuation) and a similar peak around 9kHz.
TONS of headphones have that FR "feature" and I don't know why. Any ideas? I once thought it may have been from ABS plastic, which almost all headphones are using these days, but even Sennheiser's Amperior (aluminum HD 25) has it, too.
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Anything to do with the distance from transducer to ear or to the back of the cup? The cup sizes and shapes vary a lot, but those depths not quite as much.
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It may be caused by the driver-ear distance, 'leakage' or damping of soundwaves (foam/velours/pleather/leather) and amount of air and shape of the inside 'sound chamber' (between driver and ear).
As a lot of headphones have somewhat similar ear/driver distances, sound chamber sizes and shapes as well as used materials for pads, chances of them all showing quite similar effects is rather large.
I don't think it is related to open/closed housings nor the size of cups that much (does depend somewhat on damping inside as well).
Also used cup materials do not seem to affect FR, but can cause audible colorations of the sound by reflections/conduction/resonances.
It also seems to depend on who's plots you are looking at.
When you look at Headroom plots and overlay them (in their very handy comparison tool) almost all headphones seem to dip around 3-5kHz and peak around 8-10kHz and then roll-off more or less.
When you look at GE's, UB's or Marv's plots (or mine) you will notice the plots do not appear as similar as they seem to be at Headrooms site.
I do like their handy comparison tool though as all are measured in the same way but take their FR measurements for what they are... heavily smoothed and incorrectly 'corrected'.
Dips in general aren't as obvious as peaks are.
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If you grab the link for the headroom FR plots and subtract 1 from the numbers, you'll get the unsmoothed versions.
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You can get the raw and unsmoothed plots with their Build-A-Graph section too. They updated it recently.
http://www.headphone.com/learning-center/build-a-graph.php?graphID[0]=863&graphID[1]=853&graphID[2]=573&graphID[3]=&scale=20&graphType=-1&buttonSelection=Update+Graph
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Oh handy, I didn't know about the update. Thanks!
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I had completely forgotten about that.
Made me wonder though....
A: Why didn't/don't/won't they default to non-smoothed plots ?
B: How hard would it be to add another dropdown/button to select between raw, non-smoothed, smoothed and maybe even uncorrect the 'double' x-field correction.
It would make the tool much more valuable.
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Has anyone made a CSD plot of them with the back removed? It would seem logical, since the resonance was being attributed to the cheap housing, that we would see major improvements. I flipped through this thread and couldn't find any, let me know if I'm wrong.
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Has anyone made a CSD plot of them with the back removed? It would seem logical, since the resonance was being attributed to the cheap housing, that we would see major improvements.
Here you are:
Aside from the labels it isn't very hard to see which one is closed back and which one is open back.
(http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/zz296/solderdude/th02rclosedbackbackcsd_zps7fe05471.png) (http://s837.photobucket.com/user/solderdude/media/th02rclosedbackbackcsd_zps7fe05471.png.html)
(http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/zz296/solderdude/th02ropenbackcsd_zps188349e1.png) (http://s837.photobucket.com/user/solderdude/media/th02ropenbackcsd_zps188349e1.png.html)
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My CSD tests between back and no-back were similarly inconclusive, but I attributed it to mostly to my coupling mechanism. Also, I hear the echo-iness to be more in the mids (<1k) which the CSDs don't seem to capture well without a longer window.
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The 1k region definitely looks worse on the closed. I wouldn't doubt it gets worse on the way down.
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would a generous layer of blu tac followed by foam and felt (blu tac at the very back of the cover while felt on top) help to clean up the CSDs? That's what I'm planning to do for mine.
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I made a CSD of a closed TH02 with damping felt on the back and filled (generously) with sheep wool showed the 1kHz 'ringing' was reduced around 10dB (roughly) between open back and closed back.
The CSD of my 'DT330-TH02' also showed showed some ringing around 1kHz but the DT330 has a grid which is 50% open.
(http://diyaudioheaven.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/dscn2639.jpg?w=447&h=300)
The ringing was about 10dB lower in amplitude, shorter lived and had different 'humps' in decay time.
The visible reduction of 1kHz components seems to be caused by the cups.
I could not see any differences in CSD between 100Hz and 500Hz so only the 1kHz band seems affected which is clearly visible in the CSD.
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Hi all. I just want to share the simple mod I did with my tascams
(http://i.imgur.com/8mhAoG3l.jpg)
I removed the back cups and instead used a pvc mesh as a "grill" of sorts and it's held by blu tac from the inside. I used HM5 pads with a foam disc sandwiched between the cloth of the pads and the driver opening.
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Excellent! I might look into those grills. Also want a double sided cable too... :)p14
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It would be good to recable these. I accidentally pulled one of the wires off the left driver when I was applying blu tac on the inside, I guess because there were too many wires attached to it and wasn't easily movable.
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Necro! made some changes to my TH02. Dynamat all over the baffle. Creatology foam in the enclosure. I keep the back covers off.
(http://i.imgur.com/jODrtSc.jpg)
Can anyone recommend a decent coiled cable to recable this guy with? The Shure one looks like the cheapest.
http://www.amazon.com/Shure-HPACA1-Replacement-Headphone-Headphones/dp/B002Z9JWYO