CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => Headphone Measurements => Topic started by: ultrabike on April 14, 2014, 05:03:24 AM
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Sound
I actually like the sound of these quite a bit. I found them quite engaging.
I had no problems getting half-decent seal with these and the bass did seem to go fairly low. It seemed pretty clean and detailed to me. Not to emphasized or anemic. I also did not find them too boxy or wonky sounding. The treble was for the most part OK. However, I did feel there was a narrow and not too subtle emphasis somewhere in the 10 to 12 kHz range. Perhaps some edginess too. IMO this is not a bright headphone though, and found the overall balance very pleasant.
SQ wise I like these more than the NAD cans.
Comfort
&@$~ poo poo #*^!
Presentation
The look nice and sporty.
Price
For $350 ($400 MSRP) could have been worse. The box is awesome.
Overall
Good sounding head clamps.
Measurements
Frequency Response
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1545.0;attach=6130;image)
Distortion Right
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1545.0;attach=6132;image)
Distortion Left
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1545.0;attach=6134;image)
CSD Right
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1545.0;attach=6136;image)
CSD Left
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1545.0;attach=6138;image)
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Comparos:
Focal Spirit Pro vs NAD
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1545.0;attach=6140;image)
Focal Spirit Pro vs HD600
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1545.0;attach=6142;image)
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How do you like these next to the HD600? Obviously tonal balance looks very similar but what about openness and other intangibles?
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Well, the HD600 are more open for sure. I like the balance of the HD600 better too. I feel the bass of the Focals is better though, and to be fair I think Focal did a fantastic job considering these are closed cans.
Comfort-wise, unlike the HD600s, these SUCK!
(http://www.addamsfamily.com/addams/f_headache.jpg)
Moreover, I felt the narrow peak between 10 and 12 kHz (absent in the HD600s) was a little stronger than what the measurement suggests. It didn't hurt me and it's not a show stopper IMO though.
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Yes, this all makes sense to me. I agree. Thanks for doing this and for comparing to HD600!
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Doesn't look too bad overall. The treble could probably be smoothed out with some simple mods.
I'm disappointed the comfort is so poor. That's the biggest factor these days for me in determining how long I can actually wear a pair of headphones, which really sucks when you have the sound right where you want it.
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Thanks for measuring them and doing the comparison. This jibes with what I was hearing...and with their not-so-minor ergonomic difficulties. The comparison overlay between the NAD and FSP's midrange is surprising to me - because the sound from 300Hz to nearly 3k sure doesn't sound as similar to me as it looks.
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Most pro/studio phones I've been exposed to are real head squeezers for sure. Very few are comfortable while sounding good.
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The fit problem is compounded by the small cup size which ends up pressing on the ears. After a short while one needs a break.
The measurements are usually done so that 90 dB is reached at 1 kHz. In some cases this might make it seem as if the mids align. However, the NAD is putting out more power than the FSPs in the measurements given it's more U-shaped response. If measuring using 90 dB of pink noise, the NAD mids would seem sunken relative to the FSP.
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I actually don't mind the comfort/clamp too much considering their small earcup size because of the memory foam pads (which get warm and mold to your ears over time). I definitely mind the small earcup size though, and I can see how that can compound any possible clamping issue to other people, as it clamps down on the outer part of your ears.
Soundwise I thought these were a little lacking around 2khz, and a little hot around 10khz, but it was a very narrow peak. I thought the bass extended wonderfully and had superb balance, but wasn't as hard hitting as other headphones. I think they sound very open for a closed headphone (not open in a large soundstage sense but open in a cohesive, clear sense.)
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Yup, that's how I heard them. Warmish laid back sound with the exception of a small area of forwardness at 5-6k. They sound a lot like the some of the big Focal speakers, for better or for worse. I know a few of you guys have heard the big Focal speakers, so that's why I mention them.
The comfort is horrible. In comparison the Momentums (which simply did not fit me), the FSPs do fit me, albeit in a very very painful way. These Germans and Frenchmen need to understand that most people from other nations around the world do not have small ears.
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We
may need a clamping force mod. Sorry if my approval of the FSP has smashed anyone's ears. I will be trying to figure out how to keep mine around!
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I actually don't mind the comfort/clamp too much considering their small earcup size because of the memory foam pads (which get warm and mold to your ears over time).
I also found that warming up the pads helps quite a bit. When I first got mine, I tried the ol' bending the headband (top rubber-coated part) a bit. Although it feels like there is a metal band underneath there, the plastic on the outer sides sort of made me nervous. The bending helped comfort a little bit. My bigger issue is actually a hotspot from the thinly padded headband. I find if I move it to a different part of my head (more forward), it's not that bad.
Here is what I did to stretch my HD600s that I just got. I leave it like that for a day or two. It also works for the 650 of course.
(http://i61.tinypic.com/331i1bt.jpg)
BTW, if I tap fairly hard on my left ear cup I can hear a vibration that sounds like a loose wire or spring. Does anyone else get that? I ran some sweeps through the headphones at various dbs and don't hear anything that sounds like it shouldn't be there. So I'm not too bothered by it. But you know...
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I'm not sure I've found a single headphone that doesn't hurt the top of my head. This includes a softened-up HD598 that I also stretched out to nearly eliminate clamping force. CAL! also hurts, and it's almost too light to put pressure on the top of your head. I am broken.
The comfort is horrible. In comparison the Momentums (which simply did not fit me), the FSPs do fit me, albeit in a very very painful way. These Germans and Frenchmen need to understand that most people from other nations around the world do not have small ears.
Hey now, my family heritage is almost entirely German, and we're tall with big ears. :P
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I'm not sure I've found a single headphone that doesn't hurt the top of my head.
That's 'cuz you haven't tried the AKG K 272 HD. Most comfortable I've ever put on my head. Though the HD598 wasn't bad and sounded more detailed and richer, the K272 has not been beat for me in terms of comfort.
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IME, reducing clamping pressure just increases pressure on top of the head.
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I also found that warming up the pads helps quite a bit. When I first got mine, I tried the ol' bending the headband (top rubber-coated part) a bit. Although it feels like there is a metal band underneath there, the plastic on the outer sides sort of made me nervous. The bending helped comfort a little bit. My bigger issue is actually a hotspot from the thinly padded headband. I find if I move it to a different part of my head (more forward), it's not that bad.
The problem with doing a headband stretch is...well...the headband construction isn't that great. I opened the headband up on my Head-Fi review. http://www.head-fi.org/products/focal-spirit-professional/reviews/10488 (http://www.head-fi.org/products/focal-spirit-professional/reviews/10488) The headband will snap at the seams if you try to spread them out too much.
Loved these headphones and I'm still trying to find a good mobile replacement. I just couldn't keep wearing them because of the fit.
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That's 'cuz you haven't tried the AKG K 272 HD. Most comfortable I've ever put on my head. Though the HD598 wasn't bad and sounded more detailed and richer, the K272 has not been beat for me in terms of comfort.
Is it comparable to the K702 65th AE? I actually think I remember that one being pretty good with comfort, but still got on my nerves after a couple hours. My skull must be part baby.
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The problem with doing a headband stretch is...well...the headband construction isn't that great. I opened the headband up on my Head-Fi review. http://www.head-fi.org/products/focal-spirit-professional/reviews/10488 (http://www.head-fi.org/products/focal-spirit-professional/reviews/10488) The headband will snap at the seams if you try to spread them out too much.
Oh, nice review! I think what also made me nervous about bending the headband was reading something like that elsewhere. Hmmm... so are you saying that even in the rubber part on top, there is plastic inside there? That's where I did most of my bending with my thumbs. When I do the bending, I try to avoid joints or connection points. Luckily, it didn't take much bending to make them fit me. I also agree that reducing the clamping force just increases the load on the other contact point- the headband. I think I have a decent balance now.
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That's 'cuz you haven't tried the AKG K 272 HD. Most comfortable I've ever put on my head. Though the HD598 wasn't bad and sounded more detailed and richer, the K272 has not been beat for me in terms of comfort.
Is it comparable to the K702 65th AE? I actually think I remember that one being pretty good with comfort, but still got on my nerves after a couple hours. My skull must be part baby.
The band on the AE isn't as broad as on the K27x phones. The effective area/wt yields nearly half the pressure on the K27x. One big consideration, though, is if you're bald or mostly so then the K27x's vinyl will have a different level of annoyance for sure. The shock band suspension is excellent. The K271 squeezes the ears more than the K272 because the former is a studio phone.
With headphones like the FSP or other studio phones like the K171 (AKG's on-ear studio phones) you're dealing with musical clamps so that you get predictable sound with minimum fiddling. The tradeoff is ear comfort. I find the K171 to have an awesome headband but my ears kill after a half hour. They smash my ears bad. I'm not too interested in the FSP for that same reason.
I'm pretty sure that when a headphone clamps hard on the ears, people pull it hard on the head as well. It basically hurts all around unless you have a massive pile of hair up top.
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Spent more time getting the adjustments right, they are feeling good today. Making them a little bigger is helping. I make them as small as possible when sticking them in the pouch.
Need to memorize the clicks per side if I pack them.
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I'm not sure I've found a single headphone that doesn't hurt the top of my head. This includes a softened-up HD598 that I also stretched out to nearly eliminate clamping force. CAL! also hurts, and it's almost too light to put pressure on the top of your head. I am broken.
I have the same problem, even the MA900 hurts my head after a while. The only headphones I can use for extended periods are the MDR1R and Paradox (with the added suspension). Anyway, I remembered marv posting the FR for his modded MDR1R (mod notes a few posts after):
http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1300.msg34961.html#msg34961
It seems to look somewhat like the FSP, and the 1R is so much more comfortable. Might want to consider it?
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The band on the AE isn't as broad as on the K27x phones. The effective area/wt yields nearly half the pressure on the K27x. One big consideration, though, is if you're bald or mostly so then the K27x's vinyl will have a different level of annoyance for sure. The shock band suspension is excellent.
Ahh, very nice. I'll have to consider those for sure!
I have the same problem, even the MA900 hurts my head after a while. The only headphones I can use for extended periods are the MDR1R and Paradox (with the added suspension). Anyway, I remembered marv posting the FR for his modded MDR1R (mod notes a few posts after):
Paradox was still not great for comfort, even after I added extra padding to the suspension headband. This is true of any T50RP I've worn, though. I've heard really good things about the MDR1R's comfort, so I'll look into those as well.
I would like to hear the new Focals sometime, at least. Probably not purchase due to comfort (unless, how is the Classic?), but definitely want to listen.
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IME, reducing clamping pressure just increases pressure on top of the head.
Hmm... just found these online:
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_68910_Beyerdynamic-C-ONE-HB-BLACK-Replacement-Custom-One-Pro-Headband-Black.html
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_78682_Sennheiser-HD-280-Pro-Headband-Padding-Cushion-Strip-083321.html
Might give one a try if I keep getting hotspots with the FSPs. I knew Beyer had these, but I hadn't seen the Sennheiser one which looks like it will fit the FSP a little better.
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Now I know why I wasn't complaining about smashed ears when I first got them. I spent enough time adjusting them.
Then I started collapsing them to bring with me to work. And not spending enough time to adjust them after un-adjusting them.
Comfier again. :wheel:
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Need to memorize the clicks per side if I pack them.
One minute to Wapner... one minute... uh oh... one minute to Wapner... ;)
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(http://i1325.photobucket.com/albums/u629/ginrim/Headphones/misc/fsp_zpsdcb97019.jpg?t=1397803688)
Quite interesting, Tyll's measurements show a dip around 6k, whereas ultrabike's show a peak in that region. Quite a difference beginning at around 4kHz. What do you make of this?
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Well, I don't use an ear for one. Also, probably differences in coupler material.
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The Pinna may well make the difference.
On my endeavours creating a test rig I found that (rude approximations) of a pinna can cause substantial differences (between 5 and 10dB) in the area between 1kHz and 10kHz.
Strangely enough the effect differs per headphone as well.
Didn't investigate the reasons but clues may be found in differences in the amount of air trapped inside and absorbing properties of the pad material.
A way to check the measurements for 'validity' is by listening while tone sweeping that area and look for obvious peaks and dips (10dB dips/peaks are audible), when they coincide the measurements could be called 'valid', if they don't placing a fake Pinna when taking measurements may help.
When comparing Tyll's measurements with the ones on this site (UB and Marv's) you also have to undo the 'room compensation' Tyll used/added.
This will make no differences for this 'phenomenon' though.
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This is an interesting subject. I would think it could be wise to remove the pinna out of the equation. With speakers the most usefull measurements are the one taken inside a anechoic Chamber. So why do it different With headphones. They try to remove reflections from the equation With speaker measurements. Using a dummie head with a fake pinnae and ear canal is the exact opposite as it adds loads of reflections. I say try to make it as non-reflective as possible but with a realistic seal. The direct sound is the most important one as we have a natural ability to phase out reverberation and some close reflections.
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Agreed on the 'natural ability to phase out reverberation and some close reflections'.
Speaker and headphone measurements have nothing in common and am still surprised some treat them similarly.
Speaker sound comes from the front and this is where the Pinnae come in for sound localisation.
Headphone sound comes from the sides (when we forget about certain Stax for a while) a completely different situation.
The Pinna doesn't affect the incoming sound waves that much, like it also wouldn't do when we were to place our speakers completely to the left and right of us and close by.
The air volume the Pinna takes up alters the amount of air trapped inside the cups though, and does so in a non-symmetrical way as well.
I 'suspect' this does alter the playing field for the driver (no proof and no real investigations on my part).
I am all for it to remove the ear canal in test rig, it only adds to the confusion and must be 'undone' with compensation anyway.
The Pinnae, however, do have some influence, certainly when measuring on-ear headphones.
Still, if the measurements and what we actually hear during a sweep have a high resemblance than the measurements aren't that bad.
If they differ either our ears are fooling us (yet again) or the measurements aren't as accurate as we hoped in an absolute sense.
In this particular case (checking using a sweep) I am inclined to believe the sweep somewhat more.
Calibration of a test rig is difficult to do unless you have a known reference.
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I've been a longtime advocate of changing the method of headphone measurement away from the standard HATS with compensatory HRTF. It only matters for IEM measurement and for...
[wait for it]
...determining safe listening levels of audio equipment with frequency detail. That's it.
Taking the measurement should occur in a place that requires no deconvolution. The measurement methods employed on the super high end calibrated systems still don't do frequency dependant deresonation filtering... because such compensation algorithms haven't even been established, as far as I can tell. Why would they be on a device that isn't designed around such purposes?!
Dude, you correctly pointed out air volume as a design need on a measurement system. It needs to be tuned to portray the same kind of resistance/impedance on the driver. I do advocate for a system with that feature. The ear drum as a measurement location for our wants is too mathematically dirty, though.
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Personally, I'll be building a fully anatomic ear clone for my measurements (both pinna and ear canal, in silicone)- we'll see how that goes. Right now I have the outer ear done, making the ear canal is easy (I've done such pouch mold already), next I'll be making the cheek and back of the head, but it's still a lot of time - I'm too busy and the CIEM project is not proceeding as it should anyway.
For IEMs, it seems that the ear canal volume is everything, while the shape does not matter.
For headphones though... without the pinna you will get a "wrong" measurement, but same goes for a different pinna. I'm pretty sure now this is all due to directional properties of the outer ear, somewhat due to ear canal volume and total trapped air volume, and not the ear canal shape itself.