CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Main Deck => Discussion for Registered Members Only => Topic started by: Marvey on March 23, 2012, 05:14:06 AM
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BACKGROUND:
After the big meet in August, I will leave HF forever and go back to my speaker projects. My original intention was to build big a huge compression driver / horn system with 15" woofers. Until I realized I will never have enough room in my garage or house for such a monstrosity. These setups require a ton of space. Listening directly into a big horn at relatively close distances is not pleasant either. So I've decided to go with a more conventional design.
This will probably be my most challenging project yet because it's set to meet price constraints and the cabinetry will be better than anything before because of the use of CNC equipment.
DESIGN GOALS:
- Cost: $1k-$2k in parts depending upon drivers.
- Three way: tweeter, midrange, woofer. Floorstanding.
- Closed box, friendly for smaller rooms. Open baffle needs several feet from the back wall - so this idea was nixed. Besides, open baffle bass is waste of power.
- Trapezoidal top section for tweeter and midrange for precise imaging, even at close distances.
- Fairly narrow profile - within limits - to suit the wife-acceptance factor. That is no 15" woofers.
- Almost full range - at least down to 28Hz.
- Cabinet will be machined with heavy internal reinforcements. Will be extremely heavy. CNC will look nice- not like a stupid box.
- Moderate amping requirements. Target will be 90db / 1m 1W sensitivity.
- Tuned for reasonably close placement to walls.
CONSIDERATIONS:- Selection of well behaved drivers - instead of fast sounding exotic material drivers with ringing artifacts - will simplify crossover design - keep costs low. Some trade offs here.
- Future upgrades to more exotic drivers and active crossovers? Will require multiple amps.
- Two woofers or one bigger woofer?
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DRIVERS
In selecting drivers, I'm relying a lot on Mark K and Zaph's measurements. Those guys are awesome.
TWEETER:
ScanSpeak D2608/9130 (previously Peerless HDS) $81.40 ea.
http://www.audioheuristics.org/measurements/Testing/SS6600_peerlessHDS/SS6600_PeerlessHDS.htm (http://www.audioheuristics.org/measurements/Testing/SS6600_peerlessHDS/SS6600_PeerlessHDS.htm)
Excellent performance for the price.
MIDRANGE:
18Sound 6ND430-8 $139.95 ea
http://www.zaphaudio.com/6.5test/ (http://www.zaphaudio.com/6.5test/)
Really good CSD and non-linear distortion numbers.
WOOFER:
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reserved
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Schweet!
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Marv,
Are you familiar with Duke's designs (Audiokinesis)? He has a sub-forum at: [size=78%]http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=135.0 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=135.0)[/size]
I own a pair of Fritz Carbon 7s, but from what I've read Duke's designs are something special.
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I've used the same tweeter and all the woofers (the Seas and the Scanspeak) he's used on the 5" monitors. Interesting approach with the series instead of traditional x-over. I've never built one of those x-overs (too much of a pain in the ass with 3 ways.)
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I know we have talked about the full size statements but have you looked at the mini statements?
http://speakerdesignworks.com/MiniStatements.html
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Similar idea. Two woofers, one mid and one tweeter.
As for the layout, probably a separate box for the mids and tweeter - keeping the baffle area as small as possible - to have pin-point imaging. Probably end up looking like the VonSchweikert or Wilson WATT/Puppy. A separate mid/high box will also allow easier construction in modules.
I'm aiming more for a "monitor" sound than lush, bloomy, organic. Although with the more well behaved drivers I plan on choosing (paper / doped paper instead of metal), they will probably sound more like ES5s than UERMs.
I'm not a big fan of ribbon tweeters though. I would rather just go buy Maggies and call it a day rather than use a ribbon tweeter. I like silk domes because they just work. They integrate well with the midrange drivers without odd disparities in speed. The midrange on the Mini-Statement is 87db efficient which will limit the overall system efficiency to that. I may look toward higher efficiency pro-gear drivers that sound good for the midrange. I would also like something a little bit bigger than 4" for a midrange driver because I don't want to cross over too high (in the middle of the fundamental notes of voices and most instruments.)
Ideally, I would like at least 91db efficiency. Huge expensive mono-block mega-wattage amps are not my thing anymore. I'm just getting sick of all these audiophile speakers that require 1000 watts to run properly. In any case, I've found that more efficient speakers sound more dynamic regardless of amp. It's a trade off between "detail" and dynamics.
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Similar idea. Two woofers, one mid and one tweeter.
As for the layout, probably a separate box for the mids and tweeter - keeping the baffle area as small as possible - to have pin-point imaging. Probably end up looking like the VonSchweikert or Wilson WATT/Puppy. A separate mid/high box will also allow easier construction in modules.
I'm aiming more for a "monitor" sound than lush, bloomy, organic. Although with the more well behaved drivers I plan on choosing (paper / doped paper instead of metal), they will probably sound more like ES5s than UERMs.
I'm not a big fan of ribbon tweeters though. I would rather just go buy Maggies and call it a day rather than use a ribbon tweeter. I like silk domes because they just work. They integrate well with the midrange drivers without odd disparities in speed. The midrange on the Mini-Statement is 87db efficient which will limit the overall system efficiency to that. I may look toward higher efficiency pro-gear drivers that sound good for the midrange. I would also like something a little bit bigger than 4" for a midrange driver because I don't want to cross over too high (in the middle of the fundamental notes of voices and most instruments.)
Ideally, I would like at least 91db efficiency. Huge expensive mono-block mega-wattage amps are not my thing anymore. I'm just getting sick of all these audiophile speakers that require 1000 watts to run properly. In any case, I've found that more efficient speakers sound more dynamic regardless of amp. It's a trade off between "detail" and dynamics.
Well put sir....
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Looking forward to this project! Maybe I can copy your project just for fun/education.
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Do you want in on it? I will be buying a 2 1/2D CNC routing machine for carving the parts. The cabinets are always the hard part.
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you dredge distant memories , fond ones non the less.
I really liked the work of Tony Gee - http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/download.html , looks like his main focus is kits now but when he started it was all about experimenting. I first read about series crossovers on his webpages and moddified the crossover of the speakers I was building to a series crossover and the improvement was not small.
His andromeda sounds along the lines of what you are trying to do http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/download/Humble%20Homemade%20Hifi_Andromeda%20Mk-I_copy.pdf , it might give you some ideas.
The biggest pain when I was building speakers was the cabinetry , that CNC is going to save you much cursing and spanner throwing.
Just to keep ideas afloat, did you consider planar or ribbon tweeters / midrange units. They are generally pricey if you buy them retail but there is so much turn around on diy audio that it would make it worth keeping an eye open.
If I were to do it again, I would opt for an isobarik bass chamber, a ribbon ( but I prefer the simplicity of a 2 way - for a 3 way , probably look for a good soft dome upper bass / lower mid unit )
..dB
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Do you want in on it? I will be buying a 2 1/2D CNC routing machine for carving the parts. The cabinets are always the hard part.
I think so. It definitely sounds fun and interesting, but I have no idea what the project entails or how much work is involved so I was going to see how yours went. Looks to be a good idea for hands on learning. If you're not starting until closer to August, I'll have some time to do some pre-research.
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you dredge distant memories , fond ones non the less.
I really liked the work of Tony Gee - http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/download.html (http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/download.html) , looks like his main focus is kits now but when he started it was all about experimenting. I first read about series crossovers on his webpages and moddified the crossover of the speakers I was building to a series crossover and the improvement was not small.
..dB
Oh yeah, I love that guy. I've long studied his designs.
My previous builds used more expensive metal drivers (the Seas magnesium stuff) with horrible ringing that required complex crossovers with steep slopes, but this time around, I wanted to see if I could get away with simpler crossover designs, a la Thiel. I figure could always go crazy later with active circuitry and fancy drivers. The idea behind this speaker is really an efficient 2-way with a "sub" crossed over very high at 150Hz. The efficiency is why I'll be using two woofers. I'll be crossing over one woofer at a different spot to account for baffle step - a good way to "cheat" - something I've done with success before.
Some of the best sounding drivers are really inefficient - but I've since sold my big power amps. So compromises will need to be made. That's what its all about anyways. The fun part really is with the final voicing.
I think so. It definitely sounds fun and interesting, but I have no idea what the project entails or how much work is involved so I was going to see how yours went. Looks to be a good idea for hands on learning. If you're not starting until closer to August, I'll have some time to do some pre-research.
I'll let you know how it progresses. LFF and Anax are in. We can get slight discounts on high volume parts orders.
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You do understand that this will merely lead you down the path of big power amps of the first watt demeanor. ;D
I truly see the attraction of efficient speakers, mine were around 92, my new monitors are 83 and they are not so happy with a measly 50W. I also don't see the point of monitors on stands - much more sense to use your idea of a slim cabinet and use the space to create some low end worth listening to. It is a pity isobarik woofers are not more efficient, it would be pure win. Stepping the woofer crossover is pretty sneaky.
looking forward to seeing the progression ..dB
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At least the commercial sold First Watt stuff is somewhat reasonably priced. I'm hoping Anax can get away with his 3 watt Super 7 on the mid/highs and then we use a separate cheap power amp for the bass.
I've got kids now so I don't want to throw "money" to solve problems. Although I'm tempted by this driver:
http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-6-midrange/accuton-c173-6-090-6.5-ceramic-cone-midrange/ (http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-6-midrange/accuton-c173-6-090-6.5-ceramic-cone-midrange/)
Highly efficient and well behaved.
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Plus it looks awesome.
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LOL , talk about blowing the budget. They are tres sexy but I would encourage you no to lose your focus. You can build a superb system within budget , as you well know :)
Just a thought, have you thought of an active bass section? A 300w D amp - drive it off the speaker taps with a simple attenuation network as if you were driving headphones.
I will stfu now ..dB
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LOL , talk about blowing the budget. They are tres sexy but I would encourage you no to lose your focus. You can build a superb system within budget , as you well know :)
Just a thought, have you thought of an active bass section? A 300w D amp - drive it off the speaker taps with a simple attenuation network as if you were driving headphones.
I will stfu now ..dB
That's a very good idea. I'm considering running the mid/tweeter box full range with the bass cabinet just serving as sub-bass reinforcement. That way, I only need a low pass circuit on the midrange. And a baffle step circuit.
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Wow....that ceramic driver would kill my budget in one swift stroke. ???
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Love the accuton driver!
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I changed my mind. I'm going to make a high-efficiency full range speaker back horn that looks like this:
http://www.mothmuseum.com/mothaudio/empirehi.htm (http://www.mothmuseum.com/mothaudio/empirehi.htm)
The driver in that Moth is $7,000 or something like that.
Maybe add a super-tweeter and self-powered sub, and we're all set. Just need to find a suitable driver at a reasonable price. Maybe the a Fostex FE208EZ.
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good call on the FRers. i just recently sold off my ATC SCM12 monitors and Naim Audio floor-standers to fund a DIY FR project and a new pair of HPs. the FE208EZ with a required tweet is too rich for my blood with a 2 and 4 year old running around (also considering that you should buy a second back-up set of drivers). i'm looking at the FE166en or FE206en.
right now, my BR uFonken^2 with 2x FF85K per side isn't cutting it in my 14'x36' room. before: http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b353/fishski13/047-1.jpg (http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b353/fishski13/047-1.jpg), and after: http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b353/fishski13/008-4.jpg (http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b353/fishski13/008-4.jpg).
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This was a near path for me before I found my monitors. Not sure if you have looked at the full range drivers from Mark Audio - lots on DIYA about them, they measure very well and are very well priced. http://www.markaudio.com/ Dave of Planet 10 fame has a very attractive "frugel horn" kit for the alpair 7 http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planet-10-hifi/184088-frugel-horn-mk3-flat-paks.html , the development can be found here http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/172605-frugel-horn-mk3.html ( yes I need to remember how to embed html )
The other project that looked interesting was what I thought of as a downsized take on Nelson Pas's Jordan experiments - The zigmahornet http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/zigmahornet/zigmahornet.html , I heard these at VSAC and they were a wonderful listen.
jeez, who wants a pair of raal monitors, I NEED some frugel horns ;-) ..dB
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Yes forgot about the Alpairs - never tried them.
I may very well end up with an approach that uses a full-range driver, but uses a super-tweeter and sub for help. I also suspect I'll need at least a few passive components to shape the response of the FR driver. Compromises...
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Looks kinda like this $8800 (pair) Rethm speaker, but the Rethm has a pair (?) of drivers internally also.
(http://www.stereophile.com/images/032412Rethm_Maarga-600.jpg?1332624473)
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Similar idea. Two woofers, one mid and one tweeter.
As for the layout, probably a separate box for the mids and tweeter - keeping the baffle area as small as possible - to have pin-point imaging. Probably end up looking like the VonSchweikert or Wilson WATT/Puppy. A separate mid/high box will also allow easier construction in modules.
I'm aiming more for a "monitor" sound than lush, bloomy, organic. Although with the more well behaved drivers I plan on choosing (paper / doped paper instead of metal), they will probably sound more like ES5s than UERMs.
I'm not a big fan of ribbon tweeters though. I would rather just go buy Maggies and call it a day rather than use a ribbon tweeter. I like silk domes because they just work. They integrate well with the midrange drivers without odd disparities in speed. The midrange on the Mini-Statement is 87db efficient which will limit the overall system efficiency to that. I may look toward higher efficiency pro-gear drivers that sound good for the midrange. I would also like something a little bit bigger than 4" for a midrange driver because I don't want to cross over too high (in the middle of the fundamental notes of voices and most instruments.)
Ideally, I would like at least 91db efficiency. Huge expensive mono-block mega-wattage amps are not my thing anymore. I'm just getting sick of all these audiophile speakers that require 1000 watts to run properly. In any case, I've found that more efficient speakers sound more dynamic regardless of amp. It's a trade off between "detail" and dynamics.
higher efficiency is great idea if your not plan on needing tons of headroom and don't desire rock concert levels. usually though it's smarter to add more speakers in the room then trying to get bigger amp but more boxes in the room might cause an issue as well cause more boxes means more reflections and vibrations through the floors.
also those big 200 to 300lb ''audiophile'' speakers are usually heavy cause of the enclosure they're put in. lot is filled with concrete and other materials for special damping and of course the structure of the enclosure itself but like any other speaker they will operate fine with a few watts if the speakers are sensitive enough. i don't see a speaker being able to handle 1000w RMS unless the magnet and has an aluminum voice coil weighed a couple hundred pounds each. they probably can take a peak of 1000w for like fraction of a second before the voice coil melts but continuous is just not happening.
i like soft dome tweeters as well. they do the job well with no resonating issues like metal domes and some horn loaded tweeters. lot of ribbon tweeters are not true ribbons as well. they're labeled as ''ribbons'' but are actually planer tweeters. actual ribbon tweeters are usually very expensive. planers and ribbons just get confused a lot cause their concept of design is very identical.
if you don't mind you can always try the full-range driver approach too. fostex still makes excellent full-range drivers and they have diagrams on their site to build a special cab enclosure to allow their drivers to extend down to 30hz if you want it to. looks very difficult though and might need a professional carpenter maybe to do it.
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Heh. I'm headphone full range so 1W tube amps can drive them.
Buying a 2 1/2D CNC Wood router.
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a little bump and maybe a little thread-jack to boot.
any impressions or thoughts on various compression tweets and larger woofer designs a la JBL? my only experience with these are your typical PA or movie theater speakers. after much mental dickering, i've decided to build a pair of 3 Pi speakers: http://www.pispeakers.com/contents.html (http://www.pispeakers.com/contents.html). Eminence drivers and basic crossover for now, but with upgraded B&C tweets. the Acoustic Elegance woofs are 6mo. lead-out and i want to decide if these are for me before i splash out the dough.
why this design? well, guess i just wanted to try something different than a typical 2-way or full-range speaker. i am a little worried that they might be a bit too forward in the upper midrange and treble. i just picked up the milled baltic birch from my CNC buddy today and am finalizing the crossover layout on G10 with turrets tonight. it's an expensive experiment.
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It's coming down to two projects:
- A modular speaker with mid/tweeter (desktop) and woofer section (floorstanding), which may morph into a 3 or 4 way possibly with a dome midrange since I've always wanted to use one of those for better integration (speedwise) with a tweeter. Analog active crossover will make up for low/moderate driver efficiency. After T.H.E SHOW, I'm more convinced than ever of the sonic advantages of going active.
- A full range crossover-less speaker, possibly with a back loaded horn, but more likely with a high QTS driver + ported box. The horns can be too genre limited. Thinking DSP EQ.
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You guys should figure out how to implement a plasma tweeter: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/studentrnd/plasma-speaker
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You guys should figure out how to implement a plasma tweeter: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/studentrnd/plasma-speaker
Implement it so you get only nitrous oxide instead of ozone, then bring it to an audio show and demo it in a tiny hotel room with no ventilation. Play the Flaming Lips or something.
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If only we can get all the guys who sell the snake-oil stuff in that room...
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If only we can get all the guys who sell the snake-oil stuff in that room...
BOOM!
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I think it's more like pssss pzzzz pooof.
I certainly wouldn't want George Cardas to turn into Dr. Manhattan though.
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I would just build the DTQWT MKII:
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/JA8008_DTQWT.htm
There's a very slim chance you will improve on that for the budget you have set.
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Does it sound like most incoherent multiple component systems?
Interesting design though. Nice capacitor selection too, ahem....
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These are the ones I want....so bad...
http://speakerdesignworks.com/Statements.html
or WATT speakers.
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Wilsons?
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As far as speaker coherency, has anyone given thought towards implementing the same concept that Focal uses in their Utopia line-up?
That is, go spend a large percentage of your driver budget on a tweeter with larger range to try to drop the cross-over point as low as possible?
(then maybe pair with smaller reaching but almost equally quick midrange/sub-woofers + make up the remaining difference with a nice active cross-over?
I'm thinking that keeping all the information used for imaging and detail under one excellent-performing tweeter should be desirable, no? The only problem, of course, is if no such tweeter exists outside of Focal hella-expensive inverted beryllium domes...
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Not sure where the focals xover but this is why I bought Raal http://www.raalribbon.com/products_flatfoil_70-20xr.htm
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The Raal tweeter you referenced is not available for individual resale or direct sales outside of a contract, so I guess my theory that such tweeters are not readily available still stands... Shame because that Raal tech is mighty tempting.
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readily available is the key, they do come up but you have to be looking.
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Might I recommend a google translate of this swedish page http://www.hififorum.nu/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=32545
From Engelholm Audio, a freebie-DIY done in cooperation with members from the biggest swedish Hi-Fi-site.
Costs about 1500-1900 USD parts. I've compared them to BW802Diamond. Not even close. I'm never (never say never) upgrading them.
/V
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Might as well go with something like the BG RD75 and have the ribbon all the way to the bass range.
After RMAF I'm a little enamored of line sources.