CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => Headphone Measurements => Topic started by: Marvey on September 16, 2013, 08:51:55 PM
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This is the second headphone Thujone sent to me. Fuzzy Jerg pad vs. pleather stock pad on HE400.
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Thank you again for the measurements! I'm not really sure how to describe the bass department... maybe all that fabric is dampening the sub bass too much? This is a velour pad stretched around a pleather pad with the jerg holes cut out and rear vents.
Actually, even though I didn't want to mess with them, do you think you can pull off the spacers for the rear vent? There should be 4 foam pieces on each side, you may be able to grab them with pliers without having to take the entire pad off (they do have adhesive on the pad side FYI). You can take the whole pad off if you need to, I've got more tape here. I'm wondering what the vent is doing to the sound. If you wouldn't mind removing the foam pieces and letting the entire pad make a seal...
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I knew that sub-bass mod of Jerg's didn't work when I tried it out. Do you have a pair of stock velours for comparison sake?
It's kinda funny how the THD is different with just the pads. The Jerg-pads give more THD in the bass but the regular pleathers give more thd in the mids.
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There is still a significant bass hump though. Too bad it rolls off so quickly...
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Well, the rolloff isn't horrible - noting the ticks of the graph go down to 10Hz. It does result in nice bass boost at 50Hz.
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20-35Hz is kind of a bummer. Still though, I have been enjoying that hump. Also, the treble isn't as bothersome with these pads compared to stock. Not quite as tizzy.
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The bass behaviour is definitely strange. I don't get anything like that with my HE400s coupled with my modded pads, should still be fairly flat (if not a slight roll-off) going from 100 Hz to 50 Hz, a gentle roll-off between 40-28 Hz, then a real roll-off below 28 Hz. HE400 drivers are intrinsically rolled-off about 28 Hz so..
The lowered midrange THD is as expected, that was one of the main goals of the mod was to lower the midrange glare inherent in the pleather design; the improved congruence in the midrange~treble transition looks similar to how the HE500s with the early modded pads looked like, with the treble a bit more in line with the rest of the FR.
But yeah, very curious indeed! Thanks for measuring.
Edit: btw Marv, by "stock pleather earpads" do you mean the stock earpads with or without the inserted foam rings?
Also did you measure the HE400s with the modded pads as is, or after you've taken them off and put them back on? There is always the possibility that the adhesive feet are not bonded properly, or the mounting ring clips not clipped in properly. If anything the roll-off should be at least on-par with stock pleather earpads, there is nothing about the modding steps that feasibly reduce bass extension.
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I'd say do non-fuzzy jergpads. Fuzzy ones had subbass rolloff and some bass quality issue I couldn't exactly pinpoint, so I got rid of the fuzzy layer. (Plus this fuzz is harsh in touch.)
When I attached them using duct tape on the sides instead of two-sided tape in the center, the hump went away. The hump got worse when I rubber glued the pads to the ring. I bet this is due to vibration from the driver conducting into pads and then ears.
Caveat: HE-500.
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Also did you measure the HE400s with the modded pads as is, or after you've taken them off and put them back on? There is always the possibility that the adhesive feet are not bonded properly, or the mounting ring clips not clipped in properly. If anything the roll-off should be at least on-par with stock pleather earpads, there is nothing about the modding steps that feasibly reduce bass extension.
I'm guessing the stock measurement was done on a different pair of HE-400's. I'm leaning towards the back vent being the sub-bass thief... though I agree with you. Very curious.
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When I modded my D2000 to be open-back, I lifted the pads off the attachment plate/baffle. The locking pegs acted as "legs" then, so air vented under the entire pad (minus the pegs and velcro pieces I used to attach pads). For more information, here is the thread I made for the mod on HF:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/569094/open-back-mod-for-denon-d2000-5000-7000-fr-measurements-available-updated-11-1-2011
I got the idea from lmswjm, who actually sent purrin his version of the mod for measurements (available on this site). The primary difference between his mod and mine (besides D2000 vs D7000) was that he sealed that gap under the pads, and I don't believe he removed that small bit of paper(?) damping behind the driver or put a couple layers of foam in front of the drivers like I did (I was really trying to tame the peaks and ringing around 4-5KHz and 7-8KHz).
I made several changes after that post on HF. You can see that I never got around to updating it. The modding spiraled out of control, and before I knew it, I had a really messed up, almost unusable headphone. I had to toss them eventually. But, to get on with my point, see the differences vs my open-back mod and the stock D2000 (mine was not the latest version of the D2000, so I'm using Tyll's older measurements of the two). This was also before I went crazy with modding them into total crap...at least somewhat, I think. It's hard to remember:
Stock: http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/DenonAHD2000.pdf
Open-back mod: http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/DenonAHD2000DIYModifiedHans030390.pdf
Now, I'm not sure if it was the lifted, vented pads that caused it, but the changes in the bass on the HE400 here remind me of my D2000 mod. At the time, I thought it had improved the bass, cleaned it up, and kept the same, low extension as before. If the measurements were correct, my ears were fooling me. I actually did quite like how they sounded, though...very open, yet still could be powerful and intimate/close. I thought the upper mids and treble were much smoother. I liked it...but that's a side point. (I actually sent them to LFF to listen to...doubt he remembers it, haha, but that's off topic..sorry)
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I'd say do non-fuzzy jergpads. Fuzzy ones had subbass rolloff and some bass quality issue I couldn't exactly pinpoint, so I got rid of the fuzzy layer. (Plus this fuzz is harsh in touch.)
When I attached them using duct tape on the sides instead of two-sided tape in the center, the hump went away. The hump got worse when I rubber glued the pads to the ring. I bet this is due to vibration from the driver conducting into pads and then ears.
Caveat: HE-500.
My focus is primarily on HE500s too, HE400s are just an afterthought really.
I think there is an unavoidable slight hump around 50 Hz if we use pleather earpads without the inserted foam rings, it may very well be linked to how shallow it is. But in terms of extension below 50 Hz, the pleathers (without inserted foam rings) just have no real extension to my ears unless I bond them to the cups.
Note that all my by-ear tests of extension etc are via SineGen.
Maybe distortion will still be high, but I'm darned sure that the FR extension with the pads Modulor will be sending to Marv for HE500s should be excellent.
I didn't notice anything weird that the velour cover shell did on the sound, it just removed some cupped-ness of the sound.
When I modded my D2000 to be open-back, I lifted the pads off the attachment plate/baffle. The locking pegs acted as "legs" then, so air vented under the entire pad (minus the pegs and velcro pieces I used to attach pads). For more information, here is the thread I made for the mod on HF:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/569094/open-back-mod-for-denon-d2000-5000-7000-fr-measurements-available-updated-11-1-2011
I got the idea from lmswjm, who actually sent purrin his version of the mod for measurements (available on this site). The primary difference between his mod and mine (besides D2000 vs D7000) was that he sealed that gap under the pads, and I don't believe he removed that small bit of paper(?) damping behind the driver or put a couple layers of foam in front of the drivers like I did (I was really trying to tame the peaks and ringing around 4-5KHz and 7-8KHz).
I made several changes after that post on HF. You can see that I never got around to updating it. The modding spiraled out of control, and before I knew it, I had a really messed up, almost unusable headphone. I had to toss them eventually. But, to get on with my point, see the differences vs my open-back mod and the stock D2000 (mine was not the latest version of the D2000, so I'm using Tyll's older measurements of the two). This was also before I went crazy with modding them into total crap...at least somewhat, I think. It's hard to remember:
Stock: http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/DenonAHD2000.pdf
Open-back mod: http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/DenonAHD2000DIYModifiedHans030390.pdf
Now, I'm not sure if it was the lifted, vented pads that caused it, but the changes in the bass on the HE400 here remind me of my D2000 mod. At the time, I thought it had improved the bass, cleaned it up, and kept the same, low extension as before. If the measurements were correct, my ears were fooling me. I actually did quite like how they sounded, though...very open, yet still could be powerful and intimate/close. I thought the upper mids and treble were much smoother. I liked it...but that's a side point. (I actually sent them to LFF to listen to...doubt he remembers it, haha, but that's off topic..sorry)
Hans did you test the extension with a sinewave generator or something similar, in that case? That's always been a trusty tool for me testing for extension, ringing, and clarity with headphones or modifications on headphones.
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The stock pad measurement was on the same pair. I forgot about the "back-vent". That definitely would cause the measured response to roll off early with a slight hump, especially with planars. I'll measure the other side and on my own pair just to make sure.
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Hans did you test the extension with a sinewave generator or something similar, in that case? That's always been a trusty tool for me testing for extension, ringing, and clarity with headphones or modifications on headphones.
Yep, I used SineGen to test individual frequencies and did sweeps as well. And music, of course. I spent many, many hours on those headphones and testing them...
And it could be that the similarities between the two headphones really don't have a similar cause (or not as similar as it might appear).
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The stock pad measurement was on the same pair. I forgot about the "back-vent". That definitely would cause the measured response to roll off early with a slight hump, especially with planars. I'll measure the other side and on my own pair just to make sure.
Hey Marv, could you refer to this brief video tutorial (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8xZBgwJ9c4) with regards to how I install the modded pads? (I recorded it so it'll be included in the head-fi thread soon)
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The stock pad measurement was on the same pair. I forgot about the "back-vent". That definitely would cause the measured response to roll off early with a slight hump, especially with planars. I'll measure the other side and on my own pair just to make sure.
The same pair of pads or headphones? Did the stock pair have the foam ring under the pad? If you wouldn't mind taking the foam spacers off the pads (removing the vent) and measuring again, it would be greatly appreciated!
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The stock has the foam ring. Same headphones.
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The stock has the foam ring. Same headphones.
That's one of the things I worry about, whether the lower bass behaviour is dependent on the presence of the foam ring or not. I just really dislike the weird hollowness and the obtrusive treble when the pleathers have that foam ring tucked in, that's why I never bother with it.
The other possibility, of course, being the foam spacers messing up the bass, but I strictly made it cover only 1/4 of the pad so that the other 3/4 would contact the cup normally, sort of a elegant compromise (in theory).
Is your installation method of the modded pads similar to how I do it in the video I linked?
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I put in the back first (because of the raised indents), and then pop in the fronts by bending the plastic ring inwards. No screwdrivers around ortho magnets/drivers for me.
I would also remind folks not to worry about the bass measurement. It's -1db at 40Hz and -4db at 30Hz. If you could get most speakers to do that, that would be awesome. I mean, in relation to the DT880-2003s I just measured a few days ago, these sound like they have more bass extension. Mind you the Abyss (my #1 headphone) exhibits similar behavior. There is usually little material below 30Hz. Most "bass" resides from 50 to 120Hz; and most people who say they are hearing 25Hz tones are probably hearing the 50 and 100Hz harmonics.
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Right channel. Thujone HE500. Fuzzy Jerg pad.
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HE400 stock pad (HFM provided foam ring still in place)
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While I agree that most music doesn't reach frequencies below 40Hz, my library is primarily EDM :)p2. I would still be very interested in seeing measurements without the vent. Would you mind trying it out? If you have a ziplock/sandwich bag, you can just stick the foam pieces to that and I can reapply or ditch them once you send them back.
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HE400 modified stock pad (inner foam ring removed)
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While I agree that most music doesn't reach frequencies below 40Hz, my library is primarily EDM :)p2 . I would still be very interested in seeing measurements without the vent. Would you mind trying it out? If you have a ziplock/sandwich bag, you can just stick the foam pieces to that and I can reapply or ditch them once you send them back.
Already on it. Taping over the vent. Gimme a second.
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HE400 modified stock pad (inner foam ring removed)
Good, this rules out one of the possibilities. I guess we are honing in on the culprit. :-DD
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I already know the "culprit" if it can even be called that. Tape over the back of the fuzzy Jerg pads to make sure the seal is good. IMO, the boosted 50Hz (despite the rolloff at 35Hz) sounds better and is probably more in accordance with Jerg's vision.
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Wow, the hump completely disappears. I gotta say, I'm a little surprised about that! I guess this is a great explanation as to why these pads sounded much bassier than the jergs I made for myself (my vent was much smaller than the vent on these). That said, the sub-bass adhesion mod isn't actually increasing sub-bass after all (unlike the HE-500).
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I already know the "culprit" if it can even be called that. Tape over the back of the fuzzy Jerg pads to make sure the seal is good. IMO, the boosted 50Hz (despite the rolloff at 35Hz) sounds better and is probably more in accordance with Jerg's vision.
:)p7
That's why we needed to send these in for measurement haha, so that you could do some ad hoc diagnoses on things that seem off, but that can't be known for sure without measuring before and after. So it's basically due to a lack of seal then...
If it's just the 1/4 of the pads (with those rubber risers) that need to be taped over, then it could be an easy additional step in the mod process.
I'm still adamant that the rubber risers are good mostly because with HE500, they distance the ears from the metal bars glued across the drivers, and the slight angling helps center-staging. It might need to be renamed from "back-vent mod" though, maybe just "slant mod". And perhaps recommend it for HE500 only (since HE400s don't have those nasty metal bars strewn across the drivers).
Depending on how the measurement comes out with Modulor's batch 2 Jergpads being sent to Marv for HE500, there might be the need for some major revision with regards to the adhesion tape step and the backside riser step.
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I would definitely say that this troubleshooting is a success! Thanks to jerg for the idea, modulor for the pads, and purrin for the measurements :)p1
I think the vent mod is still something that should be noted on the jerg pad thread (even for the HE-400). Angling the pads will help some with comfort but it will also give more room for your ears, as you have stated. Then, whether or not you want a bass hump or for the bass to be untouched, add/remove the tape layer.
I reckon I'm going to probably remove the vent all together. I don't need the angle or the extra space for comfort as I have no issues. I had noticed a fair amount of hollowness with these pads compared to my 1.0 pads and I'm guessing it is a result of the vent now... that or possibly the broader recession range in the upper mids? Something tells me that the upper mid behavior is going to be the same with the 1.0 pads. I think the hole mod is what is causing the difference in that range anyway. I guess I got some things to try out when I get my babies back :)p15
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I would definitely say that this troubleshooting is a success! Thanks to jerg for the idea, modulor for the pads, and purrin for the measurements :)p1
I think the vent mod is still something that should be noted on the jerg pad thread (even for the HE-400). Angling the pads will help some with comfort but it will also give more room for your ears, as you have stated. Then, whether or not you want a bass hump or for the bass to be untouched, add/remove the tape layer.
I reckon I'm going to probably remove the vent all together. I don't need the angle or the extra space for comfort as I have no issues. I had noticed a fair amount of hollowness with these pads compared to my 1.0 pads and I'm guessing it is a result of the vent now... that or possibly the broader recession range in the upper mids? Something tells me that the upper mid behavior is going to be the same with the 1.0 pads. I think the hole mod is what is causing the difference in that range anyway. I guess I got some things to try out when I get my babies back :)p15
Yeah the damping holes are the meat and gravy of the mod, they help remove the midrange resonance inherent with these earpads. As to what exactly causes the dip around 1.5-2kHz (observed in both the early version I sent to Marv, and this one, measured across HE500 and then here HE400), it may very well be due to the holes. Ditto goes for the reshaping of the upper midrange / treble region.
Overall the pads when modded do change the sound signatures of either HE400 or 500 it's used on in a complex manner. Clarity is boosted, while the tonal balance shifts toward a very cohesive yet relaxed state.
It's not terrible for HE400 persay, because the upper midrange recession is actually slightly raised by the mod, which coincides with this drop in the mid-midrange, so midrange ends up being smoother / more cohesive (it no longer feels like there's a "chunk missing", so midrange is less wonky and treble is more natural). It's all quite readily presented if you toggle between the graphs in this thread.
As for HE500... I can't say much until Marv measures the pads that Modulor's sending in.
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It's not terrible for HE400 persay, because the upper midrange recession is actually slightly raised by the mod, which coincides with this drop in the mid-midrange, so midrange ends up being smoother / more cohesive (it no longer feels like there's a "chunk missing", so midrange is less wonky and treble is more natural). It's all quite readily presented if you toggle between the graphs in this thread.
+1
The treble is waaaay more tame/natural with these pads on. I guess the tizziness is in part due to the big upper mid dip followed by the steep incline to lower treble. The jerg pads completely fix that problem as well as smoothing out the rest of the recessed range in general.
EDIT: Do you think that the adhesion mod has anything to do with the lower bass distortion?
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Just got home and tried out sealing the backside with electrical tape. Indeed, with the openings there, my HE500s have some serious rumble between 25 Hz and 40 Hz; with the openings fully taped up, 25-40 Hz becomes much more subdued and (to my ear) rolled-off, but also a bit cleaner-sounding. This is in contrast with my HE400s which do indeed sound meh in the sub-bass regardless of opening or no opening.
I'm eager to see how the measurements look with HE500 now!
Hopefully Modulor's pads will get to you soon, Marv, and since you are quite familiar with HE500's sound signature, maybe you could give some subjective impressions as well then.
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Purrin, care to measure these without the fuzz front? I suspect the fuzz is unnecessary and might actually hurt the sound.
Hmm, mine have less of a vent too, 50% less thick. I'll mod them to 100% w/ extra tape to prevent leaks elsewhere.
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Purrin, care to measure these without the fuzz front? I suspect the fuzz is unnecessary and might actually hurt the sound.
Hmm, mine have less of a vent too, 50% less thick. I'll mod them to 100% w/ extra tape to prevent leaks elsewhere.
The velour is sewn onto the pads, no way to remove them without wrecking the modded pads.
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Oh, I used the two-sided tape instead.
Hmm. There is one other mod, but it's not related to the pads - check if removing the grille and/or cloth (front, back) does something interesting to the sound - to my ears, it does.
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Oh, I used the two-sided tape instead.
Hmm. There is one other mod, but it's not related to the pads - check if removing the grille and/or cloth (front, back) does something interesting to the sound - to my ears, it does.
It all does.
The dust screen fabric coupled to the pleather earpads helps attenuate the treble (relative to the thinner fabric in velour pads, or having no fabric at all).
The grill fabric seems to attenuate upper treble extension or something of that sort, because removing it definitely improves the clarity of upper treble / plankton extraction (whatever that means ::)).
The metal grills themselves add some minor resonance in the upper mids ~ treble region, it's evident in pink noise tests with / without the grills.
The grill cloth / grills change the sound at such a small scale that they are fairly irrelevant when you put them beside mods to the earpads.
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Wow, the hump completely disappears. I gotta say, I'm a little surprised about that! I guess this is a great explanation as to why these pads sounded much bassier than the jergs I made for myself (my vent was much smaller than the vent on these). That said, the sub-bass adhesion mod isn't actually increasing sub-bass after all (unlike the HE-500).
In a way it does increase sub-bass with HE400 still, well...maybe not sub-bass, more like low-bass and the upper end of the sub-bass.
With HE500 the low-bass hump linked to the open backvents may actually carry onto sub-bass. Like I mentioned in a post earlier, to my ears the hump at sub~low bass just flat out sounds better subjectively than without. Our hearing naturally rolls off at very low frequencies, and this boost (again, HE500) is like a slight EQ to counteract that.
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Wow, the hump completely disappears. I gotta say, I'm a little surprised about that! I guess this is a great explanation as to why these pads sounded much bassier than the jergs I made for myself (my vent was much smaller than the vent on these). That said, the sub-bass adhesion mod isn't actually increasing sub-bass after all (unlike the HE-500).
In a way it does increase sub-bass with HE400 still, well...maybe not sub-bass, more like low-bass and the upper end of the sub-bass.
With HE500 the low-bass hump linked to the open backvents may actually carry onto sub-bass. Like I mentioned in a post earlier, to my ears the hump at sub~low bass just flat out sounds better subjectively than without. Our hearing naturally rolls off at very low frequencies, and this boost (again, HE500) is like a slight EQ to counteract that.
What I meant to say is that the adhesion mod by itself is not actually doing much. The vent is what is causing the bass boost. It seems possible that the chamber between the driver and your ear is leaking sub bass frequencies when vented, and this makes some sense. However, the boost at 50Hz may be because the back pressure caused by closed chamber between the driver and ear (when not vented) is no longer there and the driver is allowed to push more air without resistance. I can't think of any other way to describe why the bass is nearly 5dB louder at 50Hz.
When I look at the FR, the HE-500 has a slight decline from 50Hz up to 1kHz. I think that this would make the transition into the vent mod much more gradual to the ear. Don't get me wrong, I was enjoying the hell out of the bass hump on my HE-400, I just think that I can make a better compromise (i.e. a smaller vent for a more gradual bass boost and more gradual roll off). As I've said, I would like to find why they sound somewhat hollow with modulor's revision of the pads. All of this trouble shooting seems to point to the vent mod because this particular vent does not provide for a very smooth curve. Bottom line though, I can't stress enough that his pads are far superior to mine overall. The build quality and the velour top mod are awesome. Also, I think his extra line of holes might be contributing to the smoother treble (treble was still on the tizzy side with my jergs).
What it comes down to is that these pads are a wonderful asset to these two headphones. Especially now that we can pin point several steps within the mod so that others can choose to do use them or not. :)p5
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I just wanted to note that I have since removed the vents completely and the hollowness that was heard is now gone. The 50Hz boost provides for a fun listen, no doubt, but I wanted my mids back.
Mmmm...pianos... headbang
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I just wanted to note that I have since removed the vents completely and the hollowness that was heard is now gone. The 50Hz boost provides for a fun listen, no doubt, but I wanted my mids back.
Mmmm...pianos... headbang
It (the back vents) does seem quite detrimental to HE400s, unlike the more mild measurable changes on the HE500s. If I had designed the mod around HE400s in the first place, I would not have done the back vents anyhow, because HE400s do not have a metal bar welded across the middle of the drivers that like to irritate ears; also, HE400s are open-sounding enough, the backvents would not offer nearly as much soundstaging improvement as they do on the HE500s.
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It (the back vents) does seem quite detrimental to HE400s, unlike the more mild measurable changes on the HE500s. If I had designed the mod around HE400s in the first place, I would not have done the back vents anyhow, because HE400s do not have a metal bar welded across the middle of the drivers that like to irritate ears; also, HE400s are open-sounding enough, the backvents would not offer nearly as much soundstaging improvement as they do on the HE500s.
The vent definitely seems to work better with the HE-500. The measurement changes are minimal (especially when compared to the HE-400) and I'm sure that the open-ness is an improvement. Wonder if it's worthwhile to measure with a vent in the front and the back simultaneously (on the HE-500 ofc). From your impressions as well as other users on HF, the front vent seems to add even more air to the sound, but it doesn't help the driver irritation from the lack of space. Having two vents would solve that issue but I have a feeling that you might see a quicker bass roll-off... Alas, I don't even know what the HE-500's sound like!
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It (the back vents) does seem quite detrimental to HE400s, unlike the more mild measurable changes on the HE500s. If I had designed the mod around HE400s in the first place, I would not have done the back vents anyhow, because HE400s do not have a metal bar welded across the middle of the drivers that like to irritate ears; also, HE400s are open-sounding enough, the backvents would not offer nearly as much soundstaging improvement as they do on the HE500s.
The vent definitely seems to work better with the HE-500. The measurement changes are minimal (especially when compared to the HE-400) and I'm sure that the open-ness is an improvement. Wonder if it's worthwhile to measure with a vent in the front and the back simultaneously (on the HE-500 ofc). From your impressions as well as other users on HF, the front vent seems to add even more air to the sound, but it doesn't help the driver irritation from the lack of space. Having two vents would solve that issue but I have a feeling that you might see a quicker bass roll-off... Alas, I don't even know what the HE-500's sound like!
You need at least a partial direct contact between the mounting ring and the cup for HE500's bass extension; having both sides lifted by vents (or anything else really) = literally no low~sub bass left. That's one of the first things I noted when I played around with pads.
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You need at least a partial direct contact between the mounting ring and the cup for HE500's bass extension; having both sides lifted by vents (or anything else really) = literally no low~sub bass left. That's one of the first things I noted when I played around with pads.
Hmm, yeah, I figured as much. I like the idea of creating a pad system similar to the MA900 though (as you've mentioned several days ago). Obviously this would throw a lot of sub-bass out the window but I'm sure that wouldn't be a problem for a lot of users. It's just a matter of making a pad with two rings (one to mount to the headphone, one for the pad to mount to) which are at a 20° angle or so. Should provide for a fun, airy listen. Not sure if the HE-400 or HE-500 would be a better candidate though.
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You need at least a partial direct contact between the mounting ring and the cup for HE500's bass extension; having both sides lifted by vents (or anything else really) = literally no low~sub bass left. That's one of the first things I noted when I played around with pads.
Hmm, yeah, I figured as much. I like the idea of creating a pad system similar to the MA900 though (as you've mentioned several days ago). Obviously this would throw a lot of sub-bass out the window but I'm sure that wouldn't be a problem for a lot of users. It's just a matter of making a pad with two rings (one to mount to the headphone, one for the pad to mount to) which are at a 20° angle or so. Should provide for a fun, airy listen. Not sure if the HE-400 or HE-500 would be a better candidate though.
Kinda like an exaggerated backvent mod.
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You need at least a partial direct contact between the mounting ring and the cup for HE500's bass extension; having both sides lifted by vents (or anything else really) = literally no low~sub bass left. That's one of the first things I noted when I played around with pads.
Hmm, yeah, I figured as much. I like the idea of creating a pad system similar to the MA900 though (as you've mentioned several days ago). Obviously this would throw a lot of sub-bass out the window but I'm sure that wouldn't be a problem for a lot of users. It's just a matter of making a pad with two rings (one to mount to the headphone, one for the pad to mount to) which are at a 20° angle or so. Should provide for a fun, airy listen. Not sure if the HE-400 or HE-500 would be a better candidate though.
Kinda like an exaggerated backvent mod.
Bingo. Ortho soundstage monsters.
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You need at least a partial direct contact between the mounting ring and the cup for HE500's bass extension; having both sides lifted by vents (or anything else really) = literally no low~sub bass left. That's one of the first things I noted when I played around with pads.
Hmm, yeah, I figured as much. I like the idea of creating a pad system similar to the MA900 though (as you've mentioned several days ago). Obviously this would throw a lot of sub-bass out the window but I'm sure that wouldn't be a problem for a lot of users. It's just a matter of making a pad with two rings (one to mount to the headphone, one for the pad to mount to) which are at a 20° angle or so. Should provide for a fun, airy listen. Not sure if the HE-400 or HE-500 would be a better candidate though.
Kinda like an exaggerated backvent mod.
Bingo. Ortho soundstage monsters.
Something like the HE6 or perhaps the HE4 might be very suited for it then.
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You need at least a partial direct contact between the mounting ring and the cup for HE500's bass extension; having both sides lifted by vents (or anything else really) = literally no low~sub bass left. That's one of the first things I noted when I played around with pads.
Hmm, yeah, I figured as much. I like the idea of creating a pad system similar to the MA900 though (as you've mentioned several days ago). Obviously this would throw a lot of sub-bass out the window but I'm sure that wouldn't be a problem for a lot of users. It's just a matter of making a pad with two rings (one to mount to the headphone, one for the pad to mount to) which are at a 20° angle or so. Should provide for a fun, airy listen. Not sure if the HE-400 or HE-500 would be a better candidate though.
Kinda like an exaggerated backvent mod.
Bingo. Ortho soundstage monsters.
Something like the HE6 or perhaps the HE4 might be very suited for it then.
Why do you say that? I'm not too familiar with those two...
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You need at least a partial direct contact between the mounting ring and the cup for HE500's bass extension; having both sides lifted by vents (or anything else really) = literally no low~sub bass left. That's one of the first things I noted when I played around with pads.
Hmm, yeah, I figured as much. I like the idea of creating a pad system similar to the MA900 though (as you've mentioned several days ago). Obviously this would throw a lot of sub-bass out the window but I'm sure that wouldn't be a problem for a lot of users. It's just a matter of making a pad with two rings (one to mount to the headphone, one for the pad to mount to) which are at a 20° angle or so. Should provide for a fun, airy listen. Not sure if the HE-400 or HE-500 would be a better candidate though.
Kinda like an exaggerated backvent mod.
Bingo. Ortho soundstage monsters.
Something like the HE6 or perhaps the HE4 might be very suited for it then.
Why do you say that? I'm not too familiar with those two...
I know HE6 is quite airy-sounding by nature (both in measurements and in subjective auditioning I did of them), even with crappy pads like stock pleathers. HE500, on the other hand, doesn't come close to that amount of "air" even if I have them playing without any pads. So it would make sense that you work with airy drivers to achieve the next level of soundstage, not something that is more handicapped.
HE400 is airy / open-sounding enough, however I find its soundstage presentation rather artificial (more-so than HE500).
As for HE4, it's all hearsay so don't take my word for it, just musings.
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How do you know if a soundstage is artificial or not?
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I'll be honest, I don't have a great ear for soundstage in general. I can understand the "airy" sound from the HE-400, due to the coloration, but I've never felt like they provided an out-of-head experience. This is partially due to my genres of choice being largely computer based -- not recorded.
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It's been my experience through multiple headphones that a more neutral or even emphasized upper midrange will make the headphones sound more up-front and in my head. HE-400's upper-mid coloration helps make it seem very out of your head and layered at times.
Commenting about accuracy of a soundstage though, that's slippery terrain.
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It's been my experience through multiple headphones that a more neutral or even emphasized upper midrange will make the headphones sound more up-front and in my head. HE-400's upper-mid coloration helps make it seem very out of your head and layered at times.
Commenting about accuracy of a soundstage though, that's slippery terrain.
I suppose that makes some sense. The K702/65's are the only headphones I've tried that had me thinking, "wow, this is what soundstage is," and they are very forward with their lower mids, but not upper mids. With the HE-400's though... I just want bass punching my ears.
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It's been my experience through multiple headphones that a more neutral or even emphasized upper midrange will make the headphones sound more up-front and in my head. HE-400's upper-mid coloration helps make it seem very out of your head and layered at times.
Commenting about accuracy of a soundstage though, that's slippery terrain.
There's definitely much more to soundstage than the macro-scale tonal balance; micro-nuances and distant cues / room reverbs in recordings help define the realistic portrayal of the staging, if they are properly delivered by the transducers. HE400 overemphasizes those nuances/cues in the upper treble region, and it's so overwhelming that its soundstage presentation sounds off to me.
Yes I do realize it's a slippery terrain, but I try my best :-\
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Well I never did say that there wasn't more to soundstage than just tonal balance.
I guess since I EQ the upper treble down on the HE-400 I really don't have that problem.