CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => Headphone Measurements => Topic started by: Marvey on February 20, 2014, 05:59:44 AM
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Thanks to Thujone for sending these in. The HiFiMan HE-4 is sort of the oddball in the line. Few have it or have heard it. Essentially, it's a 5LE, but with magnets one on side instead of both. It's quite light - which is a change from the HFM 'phones which tend to weigh a tone. Unfortunately, the lighter weight of the HE-4 does make it any more comfortable. The top ridge of my head still hurts and the clamping force is still a bit too much.
Subjective Impressions (pre measurement):
Sort of light on its feet (very dextrous) and doesn't carry the bass weight of the HE-500 or HE-400. FR seems pretty even keel. Overall distortion seems lower than HE-400, however, there is some timbral weirdness in the treble which is sort of like an accentuated HE-400 treble or an IEM BA kind of quality. This is can both be a good a bad thing. Good in terms of definition, bad in terms or textural rendering. There appears to be slight dip in the mids around the female vocal harmonics region. Also some slight mid-treble brightness. I have mixed feelings about this one. While the overall FR seems good, the timbre is just too thin and the bass lacks authority. Quite resolving - moreso than HE-500.
Measurement Commentary:
In general, lower overall HD than HE-400 or HE-500 with exception of funky spikes in the R channel. Also notably high 3rd harmonic. Could this explain the BA quality of the sound? The 5k distortion spike is worrisome. Probably translates to possible 10k ringing and the timbral weirdness mentioned above. A lot more last octave air than the measurements would indicate.
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More thoughts:
The treble is just too much for listening sessions over 15 minutes. Hard to explain. It doesn't seem peaky. Just has a super-definition quality which tires me out. Gotta be those distortion spikes.
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CSDs. Fairly clean.
I thought there could be some ringing around 10k, but there really isn't any. I guess we'll have to chalk up the timbral weirdness and hyper-definition effect to the distortion spikes at 5k - which also seem to correspond to the ortho wall (tension). Normally this ortho wall isn't evident on a subjective basis, but in this case, I think it is.
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Surprised you call those CSDs fairly clean. That right channel is still ringing at 4.2k -19dB 5ms later with no signs of drop off within the next 5 ms.
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Rock on. headbang
Thanks a lot for the impressions and measurements, Marv. This headphone has needed to be measured and shown to the hobbyists for a long while.
I agree with your quick impressions to the HE-400 and HE-500 for the most part, though I personally find the HE-400 to have much more agonizing and 'off' treble. I guess I would use "sss" to describe the HE-4's treble and "zzz" to describe the HE-400. The timbre on the HE-400 was just not as pleasing to me. The HE-500 wins the treble shootout with flying colors. Bummer about the channel imbalance on these puppies though.
For anyone that's interested, I have a 3 way comparison thread for these three headphones over at HF: http://www.head-fi.org/t/692229/he-400-vs-he-500-vs-he-4-comparison
As for the measurements, lots of folks over there are interested in checking them out. If you'd allow me to distribute them to the HE-4 impressions thread, I'd appreciate it.
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Are you finding the treble on these as problematic as the HE-400,
purrin Marvey?
Overall distortion does seem quite high, but I would have guessed it'd be around those realms. Looks to share a similar 5khz distortion spike like the HE-400, and more distortion than the HE-400 in bass region.
A shame about the lack of bass weight in comparison to the other two Hifimans. Maybe an HE-4 user will come in and say it's being underamped and needs an Emotiva Mini?
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A shame about the lack of bass weight in comparison to the other two Hifimans. Maybe an HE-4 user will come in and say it's being underamped and needs an Emotiva Mini?
Lol, I fell for that Emotiva mini trap. Honestly, that amp does have more bass impact than the others I've tried with the HE-4 but I preferred the Ember (and Vali for that matter). Marv, did you have any issues with the Vali pairing? I felt like the Vali does a great job despite having to work pretty hard on some recordings.
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Thujone made a spot on observation of the nature of this: "I would use "sss" to describe the HE-4's treble and "zzz" to describe the HE-400".
The HE-400's "zzz" in combination with its more apparent bass volume was more tolerable to me. But I think it's great we are hearing the same things, but coming to different conclusions based on personal sensitivities and sonic priorities. It has always been my experience (when we get people without defective hearing in the same room), that we all hear the same things, but clearly have different preferences. I don't believe in this "we all hear differently" or "your HTRF is different than mine" kind of shit.
I'll give the HE-4 a shot with the Vali and Project Sunrise amp Misterrogers sent to me. I used the ZD last night.
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The only thing I miss out on is the HE-400's bass, for sure. I can handle the HE-4's treble (especially with subtle EQ when required) but I can't EQ to create the HE-400's bass impact. Glad to hear we have similar impressions.
I mostly want you to try the Vali out so I can have some confirmation that I'm not a fucktard.
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Sounds great out of the Vali. A good match. The Vali's slight bass warmth helps out the HE-4's light-footed nature.
I also applied PEQ -3.5db @ 8.5k Q:3.5.
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Seems like a pretty good headphone for the money, just not quite the juggernaut that Head-Fi makes it out to be. I will be looking forward to the new 400i and 560.
And yea the whole 'we all hear differently' thing really bugs me. We all hear pretty much the same but have drastically different preferences.
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No - definitely not the end all be all. The 8.5k peak isn't that bad. But even after EQ, I'm hearing a lot of the 5k distortion spike (which manifests as a secondary signal at 10k).
In comparison to the HE-400, I'm torn as the HE-400 has this weird funky midrange distortion.
I'd probably take the HE-500 over the others as I've become more of a tonal balance kind of guy lately.
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Really interesting measurements purrin, thanks for taking the time to measure these!
Someone at our university has a pair of these and I got to hear them the other day. I don't think the peak sounds quite as bad as I remember my HE-400 being, and I feel it's probably priced fairly compared to the HE-400, but I really think it would be better to just spend the extra bit of money and get an HE-500, especially while it's on sale.
Oh and re: amps, since the guy didn't want to drag his Emotiva amp to the mini-meet we had, his excuse for why it sounded bad was that our O2s weren't good enough. Thoughts? I know Nwavguy isn't thought of very highly on Changstar, but it is what it is. Never had to use a headphone at more than 1x gain because I listen at low levels so I'm not too sure if the "more power makes orthos sound better" argument applies to me...
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My biggest gripe is that this headphone is greatly overlooked. I got it for $345 brand new from HeadAmp and it's silly when I think about the $400 I spent on the HE-400. The HE-500 is obviously in a different league than the HE-400 but I think the same goes for the HE-4 (though it is also quite different than the HE-500). Overall I find the 4 and 500 to be on par, I just prefer the aggression that the 4 provides.
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Really interesting measurements purrin, thanks for taking the time to measure these!
Oh and re: amps, since the guy didn't want to drag his Emotiva amp to the mini-meet we had, his excuse for why it sounded bad was that our O2s weren't good enough. Thoughts?
It's as you said: It is what it is. I find the O2 amp capable of producing good sound with these orthos. Maybe the Emotiva helps give the HE4 some bass weight with its damping factor or maybe that's how the Emotiva sounds. Without being more specific on why the Emo sounds better comparex to X with the HE-4, we are left grasping at straws.
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I listened to the Emotiva with and without 120ohm resistors and it had quite a bit more bass quantity compared to the Ember and Vali. I found it more congested and not as resolving either. I was unimpressed overall.
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But, but.. x headphone needs more power otherwise the bass isn't as strong!
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It's as you said: It is what it is. I find the O2 amp capable of producing good sound with these orthos. Maybe the Emotiva helps give the HE4 some bass weight with its damping factor or maybe that's how the Emotiva sounds. Without being more specific on why the Emo sounds better comparex to X with the HE-4, we are left grasping at straws.
I guess someone should do a shootout between different speaker amps for headphones and see how they compare.
On a sidenote, looks like I will be going to that person's house tomorrow evening and I can hear the Emo next to the LCD-X on both the O2 and Emo and figure out which setup is the best.
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Really interesting measurements purrin, thanks for taking the time to measure these!
Oh and re: amps, since the guy didn't want to drag his Emotiva amp to the mini-meet we had, his excuse for why it sounded bad was that our O2s weren't good enough. Thoughts?
It's as you said: It is what it is. I find the O2 amp capable of producing good sound with these orthos. Maybe the Emotiva helps give the HE4 some bass weight with its damping factor or maybe that's how the Emotiva sounds. Without being more specific on why the Emo sounds better comparex to X with the HE-4, we are left grasping at straws.
Well, I went over to the person's house that has the HE-4 and Emotiva setup. While I didn't compare the HE-4 between the O2 and the Emo, I did compare the Vali to the Emotiva and I don't really feel it was the extra power making it sound better, I think the Emotiva is just flatout a better amp. To me, the instrument separation and soundstage was leagues ahead on the Emo. It did also feel like the treble was a bit cleaner sounding, but I didn't really hear the bass being more "controlled" or whatever. I guess I wasn't listening to the bass very much either. I was busy listening to all the individual instruments that I couldn't perfectly make out on my O2 before.
I'm seriously considering buying one now for my Mad Dog, assuming I can add a headphone jack and massive resistors, I'm in. Add one to the Emotiva bandwagon. :)
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Any luck with Project Sunrise, Marv?
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Vali is brighter, but harmonically richer with better microdynamic contrasts and articulation throughout from bass to treble. Sunrise is quieter. Treble is more refined and laid back. More tubby or traditionally tubey (smeared) in the bass.
Although I feel the Vali is stronger technically, I prefer the Sunrise over the Vali with the HE-4 because the Sunrise synergizes more with the HE-4: it slightly tames the treble issues I have with the HE-4.
P.S. Not huge differences though. Sunrise isn't anything like the EF-5 which is kind of super forgiving and in my mind designed to work the HFM HE-5, HE-6 headphones.
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Just got the HE-4... Are you f*cking kidding me?! I feel ashamed for spending 1000+USD dollars when one can have near high-end SQ sound for 300USD (got them used). I am never going to spend that much again. Seriously, this headphone is better than both HE-400 and HE-500. Near high-end sound and I don't even miss HD800 that much now.
(I am going to do some modding and extensive listening... but these are definitely keepers, the best value headphone I've listened to so far)
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Pirate's booty material for sure. Along with everything else HFM.
EDIT: Aside from the whole "discontinued" thing...
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Pirate's booty material for sure. Along with everything else HFM.
EDIT: Aside from the whole "discontinued" thing...
Seriously, this headphone could be priced at 1000USD and I wouldn't be surprised at all... It's basically an orthodynamic version of HD800s, with slightly less technically-perfect sound but providing deeper bass, fuller and more coherent sound while still being surprisingly airy and dimensional, providing quite accurate imaging. HE-4 is subjectively almost as fast as HD800 are which is another win in comparison to the majority, normally slow-paced orthos. Macrodetail is absolutely stunning for the price, again almost on par with HD800 (not completely but close). They sound very clear and precise even at low listening levels.
What makes HD800 is better microdetail, better clarity/refinement (less distortion), less deep but a bit better textured bass and of course even more expansive soundstage with even more precise imaging. But the HE-4 is basically a dream-come-true headphone for those who want something like HD800 but with orthodynamic timbre to the sound.
The more I listen with HE4 the less I regret selling the HD800s... HE-4 are almost on par for me and definitely better than anything else I have heard up to 1000USD. And no, I am not joking, I am absolutely serious.
EDIT: Comfort is fine for me - surprisingly soft headband, good pads, low weight in comparison to other othos... Though the clamping force could definitely be lower - that is my only real complaint so far.
Oh and they for sure share some "hardness" in upper mids/low treble with HD800s... But it's absolutely non-problematic for me. I am going to try some modding though to see if I can improve on that.
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The HD800 will continue to intrigue me but it also scares me away. With the equipment that I have now (Uberfrost>Project Ember) I think I'm getting just about all I can out of the HE-4 but I am not certain it would deliver for the infamously scale-able HD800. It's not surprising that the HD800 does a better job with resolution and imaging.
I'm with you though, the HE-400 is almost pathetic given the similar price range (well, I suppose a little less pathetic now that it's at $299). The HE-500 is easily on par but it's just too intimate and polite. It's a lot like the HD600 in that it doesn't sound very spacious or airy, though the jerg pad mod helps (I'm sure the grill mod does as well). The HE-500 and the HD600 do have a more dependable treble than the HE-4 though. Nothing a little EQ can't fix.
It's funny, I started with the HE-400 and finally bought the HE-4 after several recommendations. I was so blown away that I couldn't resist the urge to try the famous HE-500. After getting a great deal from RazorDog (Brian is great by the way, highly recommended) they were on my desk in a week. Needless to say, when I had them all in front of me, the price of the HE-500 was laughable. I put them up on the classifieds within a couple days. Fastest turnaround I've ever had with a headphone.
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The HD800 will continue to intrigue me but it also scares me away. With the equipment that I have now (Uberfrost>Project Ember) I think I'm getting just about all I can out of the HE-4 but I am not certain it would deliver for the infamously scale-able HD800. It's not surprising that the HD800 does a better job with resolution and imaging.
I'm with you though, the HE-400 is almost pathetic given the similar price range (well, I suppose a little less pathetic now that it's at $299). The HE-500 is easily on par but it's just too intimate and polite. It's a lot like the HD600 in that it doesn't sound very spacious or airy, though the jerg pad mod helps (I'm sure the grill mod does as well). The HE-500 and the HD600 do have a more dependable treble than the HE-4 though. Nothing a little EQ can't fix.
It's funny, I started with the HE-400 and finally bought the HE-4 after several recommendations. I was so blown away that I couldn't resist the urge to try the famous HE-500. After getting a great deal from RazorDog (Brian is great by the way, highly recommended) they were on my desk in a week. Needless to say, when I had them all in front of me, the price of the HE-500 was laughable. I put them up on the classifieds within a couple days. Fastest turnaround I've ever had with a headphone.
I personally do not find HE-500 on par as they are too slow, too blurred and too low on both macro and micro detail to be considered a truly high-end (though I can certainly understand someone could prefer this). Nice for 600USD but still overpriced when compared to HE-4. HE-400 is a joke, again when compared to HE-4.
HD800 provide a bit more "ultra-resolution" kind of sound but they are absolutely not worth 1500USD. If HE-4 cost 450USD, I would only spend like 600USD on the HD800s because of their awesome comfort level (primarily) and more technically perfect sound (not as importantly). I value HD800 very high and I haven't seen anything better so far than them overall (if everything is taken into account) but yes, HE-4 is that good for me that I don't care that much for the Senns anymore. I even know at least one person who prefer HE-4 over HE-6 and any other Hifiman so far. Also be warned that HD800 doesn't have the most natural timbre out there. If you like orthodynamic type of sound/timbre, definitely stay with orthos as HD800 are not as grain-free and smooth sounding... I praise HD800 very high but in terms of tonality/timbre, I would even get HE-500 over them most probably. With Changstar's Anax mod, it would be a draw most probably.
To sum up, for me the HE-4 is a near-perfect mix of HD800 clarity, technicality and sort of monitoring-reference tonality with Hifiman's timbre, coherence and naturalness.
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Glad to hear you found something you like my friend!
I had low expectations of HE400 when I briefly heard them and was pleasantly surprised. Curious to hear the HE-4 now.
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Glad to hear you found something you like my friend!
I had low expectations of HE400 when I briefly heard them and was pleasantly surprised. Curious to hear the HE-4 now.
You should definitely give them at least a try... I am absolutely serious when I praise HE-4 high here. Especially as I know how much you like the HD800s :-) But the Code-X may be even better, who knows (I haven't heard it).
Once again - HE-4 is not for everyone and it's not a typical slowish bassheavy ortho headphone... But for those who wants something HD800-like, HE-4 are absolutely stunning. I havent heard anything better in terms of price/performance regardless my preferences as well.
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Lol, ultra resolution kind of sound? You haven't a hint of what that can is capable of based on your statements. Yes, if you aren't committed to the HD800 driver and maximizing their potential, Hifiman's lower line sure is the way to go for plug and play convenience.
I'm not a fan of the HE500 but your comments also leads me to believe you are likely under driving the 500s like the 800s.
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Lol, ultra resolution kind of sound? You haven't a hint of what that can is capable of based on your statements. Yes, if you aren't committed to the HD800 driver and maximizing their potential, Hifiman's lower line sure is the way to go for plug and play convenience.
I'm not a fan of the HE500 but your comments also leads me to believe you are likely under driving the 500s like the 800s.
Well, my comments for sure aren't based on experience using multi thousand dollars audio chains... So yes, I haven't heard any headphone in my life to its full potential (maybe except some very crappy ones). But I don't care - this is the real life and 99.9% of people on this planet cannot afford spending that much on sound - I am one of them. I am absolutely aware that HD800 can scale almost infinitely while HE-4 most probably not... But again, I don't really care. Whatever I improved on my audio chain, HD800 improved a bit as well... But they still sounded like a HD800, with all its advantages and disadvantages.
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Yea I have the same feelings as you about the HD800. If I had to choose something to match with my Anedio D2 headphone out (probably pretty similar to your DA8) it wouldn't be the HD800.
Since adding the OR5 the HD800 are another level above anything else I have heard in resolution. I used to think that my Tzar 350 in my portable setup got me pretty close to HD800 on the go but since seriously improving my desktop system they aren't even close. As a result I sold all my portable stuff and just use the RE-400 with my iPhone because it was no longer worth it for me when compared to what I had at home.
This hobby is just as much about finding something that fits your budget and needs as it is chasing the ultimate sound. While I doubt that the HE-4 come close to the HD800 on a top of the line system I know that isn't feasible for you. Downstream equipment is the equalizer of HD800 performance.
Enough off topic from me, are you using the HE4 off the DA8 pre-out or from the headphone out?
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Downstream equipment is the equalizer of HD800 performance.
I really like this statement, as it is what I've come to understand. As much as my curiosity tells me to jump on the HD800 I doubt I'll be doing them any justice until I want to spend at least 1.5x their price on a new amp (then another 2-3k on a new DAC and another 1.5k on an OR5, etc.).
Actually, understanding the magnitude of diminishing returns we encounter with better equipment, what would you guys consider as a really good budget setup for the HD800? I'd like to think my Uberfrost will be sufficient for the time being but what about amp? Crack+Speedball?
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Downstream equipment is the equalizer of HD800 performance.
I really like this statement, as it is what I've come to understand. As much as my curiosity tells me to jump on the HD800 I doubt I'll be doing them any justice until I want to spend at least 1.5x their price on a new amp (then another 2-3k on a new DAC and another 1.5k on an OR5, etc.).
Actually, understanding the magnitude of diminishing returns we encounter with better equipment, what would you guys consider as a really good budget setup for the HD800? I'd like to think my Uberfrost will be sufficient for the time being but what about amp? Crack+Speedball?
I think Vali is considered as a very good match...
Enough off topic from me, are you using the HE4 off the DA8 pre-out or from the headphone out?
Both but I haven't really focused enough to do any definite impressions on what I prefer... So far I am still evaluating the headphone, mostly enjoying. My first impressions shared here are completely valid - I usually don't change my opinion with time much - but they are not accurate enough to form a quality review.
I completely understand that HD800 is a difficult headphone to get right... But it was the same all the time - I upgraded this or that and sound improved considerably but they still sounded like a HD800s - better but still the same, with all the advantages and disadvantages. They didn't transform into something completely different. The same thing with HE500 - I heard them on multiwatt headamp and they still sounded like a HE500 - very nice tonality but otherwise nothing really special, especially considering high prices in Europe.
People all the time talk about how upgrading DAC, amp, cables or whatever makes a huge difference... Well, I certainly can enjoy my now fully tuned audio chain from audio PC to headphone cable... But I really don't hear any life-changing improvements. I may sounded a bit more strict but if I compare 300USD I spent on HE-4 to 1200USD spent on the HD800s - it's absolutely no question that HE-4 are a far better value. To be honest, the older I am the less I care about chasing unicorns. My friend recommended me to get a HE-4 and I can completely understand why since he also loves Sennheiser HD800.
If I offended anyone, feel free to report or minus my post or whatever... These just were my honest impressions. I really feel that HE-4 is a spectacular value and I am not the only one who thinks the same. HD800 are better but not 3-4x better - absolutely not for me.
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Downstream equipment is the equalizer of HD800 performance.
I really like this statement, as it is what I've come to understand. As much as my curiosity tells me to jump on the HD800 I doubt I'll be doing them any justice until I want to spend at least 1.5x their price on a new amp (then another 2-3k on a new DAC and another 1.5k on an OR5, etc.).
Actually, understanding the magnitude of diminishing returns we encounter with better equipment, what would you guys consider as a really good budget setup for the HD800? I'd like to think my Uberfrost will be sufficient for the time being but what about amp? Crack+Speedball?
Why don't you ask in the wonderful HD800 thread on HF :P
I think the Vali is very nice with the HD800. If you could pick up a cheap HD800 it might be worth it. Thinking back to the improvement I have noticed with the HD800 I have a hard time suggesting to pair it with the Vali as a full time end game. I think of it more as a stop gap if you own the HD800 and are considering moving up the amp/dac ladder. In my experience HD800 are so resolving that with lower end gear they end up picking up a lot of graininess unless you go the other way and overly smooth out the sound with your amp/dac.
I would wait and see how the new Hifiman's turn out before I went to a minimum HD800 setup. Since you already like the HE-4 it seems like a better idea to me. I am listening to my new old HE-5 right now and they have a bit of the HD800 flavor. Based on Jerg's initial 560 impressions 560's may give you what you want without having to deal with the downstream issues the HD800 can have
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What Staps said. Vali for $119 or Crack for a bit more + elbow grease. Speedball upgrade is really amazing.
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HD800 are better but not 3-4x better - absolutely not for me.
The problem I have with absolute statements like this is how would you know? People take their limited experiences and make universal exclamations about them without any expression of what gear, music, methodology, preferences they utilize. I have no problem liking any phone over another and value propositions are fine, but when you start making universal claims with limited data or experience that's just tantamount to misrepresentation. It's something that HF is famous for promoting without any counterbalance. Perhaps I'm just a philosophical prude, but when you say stuff like that, rest assured I will chime to offer a counter balance.
On it's face, I find most of your comments no different then the plethora of Shure 840/1840, Sony sa-5000, Beyer 880/T1, AKG K812 claims that those phones equal or better the HD800. It's fine to have that opinion, but without knowing exactly why you feel that way it's pretty pointless.
If you say that for my gear and age, I just like the price performance proposition of the HE4 then that's fine. Extrapolating that by stating the HD800 is absolutely not worth X amount of dollars (ergo insinuating it's a rip off) or not X times better is a logical leap to say the least which by definition is a fallacious conclusion.
Consider your idea that the 800 is not 3x's better or worth $1500. If there is not one song or one moment in time over the course of my life that I prefer to listen to the HE4 over my HD800 on my rig, then how is the 800 not 3x's better or worth $1500 to me? This is why I don't like statements like you made. They also lead to a potential hype scenario where some people to buy an HE4 expecting an HD800 level of performance on the cheap only to be let down with false expectations. Another phenomenon quite common on other forums.
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Yeah, I really need to get my schiit together and buy a Vali...
This is why I don't like statements like you made. They also lead to a potential hype scenario where some people to buy an HE4 expecting an HD800 level of performance on the cheap only to be let down with false expectations. Another phenomenon quite common on other forums.
As I always say, if the handjob is this good, might as well stay in the circle.
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:)p13
I wonder how the Vali would pair with the HE-4. I think the Vali does a good job of controlling the HD800 treble and still providing resolution. Could work for the HE-4 if they aren't too inefficient. I need to go back and look at all the FRs for the Hifiman stuff.
Edit: Nevermind I just went back to look at the graphs and saw Marvey's comments on the pairing
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I really enjoy the Vali with the HE-4 as well. A little smoother bottom end than Ember and maybe a bit more intimate as well.
I need to steal a Vali from my buddy's place. He's no longer hooked on microphonics, he's so hooked on Crack right now it's not even funny. Should be getting the Speedball upgrade soon as well. I already love the pairing with the HD600 so I'm excited to see what's next!
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HD800 are better but not 3-4x better - absolutely not for me.
The problem I have with absolute statements like this is how would you know? People take their limited experiences and make universal exclamations about them without any expression of what gear, music, methodology, preferences they utilize. I have no problem liking any phone over another and value propositions are fine, but when you start making universal claims with limited data or experience that's just tantamount to misrepresentation. It's something that HF is famous for promoting without any counterbalance. Perhaps I'm just a philosophical prude, but when you say stuff like that, rest assured I will chime to offer a counter balance.
On it's face, I find most of your comments no different then the plethora of Shure 840/1840, Sony sa-5000, Beyer 880/T1, AKG K812 claims that those phones equal or better the HD800. It's fine to have that opinion, but without knowing exactly why you feel that way it's pretty pointless.
If you say that for my gear and age, I just like the price performance proposition of the HE4 then that's fine. Extrapolating that by stating the HD800 is absolutely not worth X amount of dollars (ergo insinuating it's a rip off) or not X times better is a logical leap to say the least which by definition is a fallacious conclusion.
Consider your idea that the 800 is not 3x's better or worth $1500. If there is not one song or one moment in time over the course of my life that I prefer to listen to the HE4 over my HD800 on my rig, then how is the 800 not 3x's better or worth $1500 to me? This is why I don't like statements like you made. They also lead to a potential hype scenario where some people to buy an HE4 expecting an HD800 level of performance on the cheap only to be let down with false expectations. Another phenomenon quite common on other forums.
I didn't make any universal exclamation... I just said that HD800 are not 3-4x better FOR ME. And I explained why - HE-4 are simply better than all the mid-fi headphones I've heard (all the Beyers, AKGs, HD600/HD650, Shures etc.) so far and they even very slightly overperform entry-highend orthos (LCD-2, HE-500) for me. HE-4 are considered as a hard-to-drive headphone and yet they overperform HE-500 for me without needing a beefy speaker amp.
IMHO IMHO IMHO... IMHO.
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it's important to be clear about IMHO's and stuff, people are easily confused. ;)
while I like the HE-4 I have heard the HD800 be way better, which of course is IMO. those phonies are just so darn picky about pairings.
I also prefer the HE-500 to the HE-4, so of course it varies a lot.
but they're definitely a good phone for the $300 or so you got them for. no doubt. you should try it with Vali if you can!
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I can only hope it's clear enough now! :-DD
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Update on the HE-4, basically confirming my previous opinion:
Surprisingly comfortable headphone due to soft headband (I am serious), low weight (in comparison to other Hifimans) and absolutely tolerable clamping force (much better than Audeze, not as good as with HD800). Subjectively a well-constructed headphone - I am not worried about manipulating with them or carrying from place to place. Also quite compact. Definitely happy in terms of overall build quality.
Sound quality is absolutely superb for the price... Stunning macrodetail, tight+deep analytical bass, mild U-shaped FR (not offensive by any means - mids are still there... just not lush or warm, rather neutral), quality soundstaging (that width and separation!). They are fast and clear sounding... HE-500 simply cannot keep up with them in terms of technicalities, though I would call HE-500's FR a bit nearer to neutrality (both HE-500 and HE-4 not completely there).
Downsides of HE-4? None if you consider their price and other products in the same range. If you compare with significantly more expensive headphones, then I can hear some lack of microdetail and higher distortion somewhere in lower treble, resulting in a slightly less clean sound... I agree with purrin that general timbre is slightly off with these headphones - but it's not as bad as it can look like. HE-4 are just the analytical Hifiman headphones - more technical and less natural-sounding than something like HE-500. As the headphone is slightly brighter than neutral + provide a good portion of air, background is not as black as with something like Audeze headphones.
For me, they belong among the best headphones I've heard up to 1000USD, rivalling LCD-2 and HE-500 for sure (slightly surpassing them IMHO). Simply a hidden gem - IMHO.
IMHO.
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Just chanced on this thread. I bought the HE-4 last year at $245 and after a few listens with the Emotiva mini-X (good bass but little else), put it in cold storage. Now that I have the Vali and the Ember, time to give these guys a fair shake. Thanks all.
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@Kothganesh : If you don't like it and want to sell it. Don' hesitate to PM me here or on HF. I'm interested to have one back ;)
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@Kothganesh : If you don't like it and want to sell it. Don' hesitate to PM me here or on HF. I'm interested to have one back ;)
Sure, you will get right of first refusal.