CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => Headphone, IEM, and Other Audio Related Discussion => Topic started by: OJneg on September 09, 2015, 03:24:50 AM
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Topic brought up by Mr. Katz in this article: http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/big-sound-2015-bob-katz-eqing-headphones-harman-target-response#kFQ8eBuXx6zYEP7Q.97
I think it's going to be very important in this thread to use the same recordings. Live stuff with minimal digital foolery and compression. If the Harman curve really is supposed to mimic the way we hear real life then the differences we hear should be positive. For those part of the Sennheiser ubermench, let's start with the HD800 and see what sort of results we get. Be sure to qualify impressions with state of modifications.
(http://cdn.innerfidelity.com/images/140202_Blog_HarmanResearchUpdate_GraphOlivewTargets.jpg)
(http://cdn.innerfidelity.com/images/BigSound2015_BobKatz2_Photo_HD800Plot.jpg)
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Everyone can use something like this setting in Jriver. Make sure to adjust level to avoid clipping on the digital side. Low Q curve on 1.5k (0.5) and high Q at 6k (5.0). High shelf Q of 1.0.
(http://i.imgur.com/enuF2dY.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/V5XLMp6.png)
Feel free to correct and adjust based on what you suspect. Must take cold shower before donning the HD800
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Hi OJ, sorry for a noon question, but how did you get the DSP studio to display the resultant response curve? U played a test tone? p:8
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Hi OJ, sorry for a noon question, but how did you get the DSP studio to display the resultant response curve? U played a test tone? p:8
Playback pink noise and use analyzer tool in DSP studio. I happen to have a rip of the Stereophile Test CD on my hard disc
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Unless I'm looking at it wrong, the amplitude scale on the target curve (hand drawn solid line) on the HD800 graph does not match the scale of the target curve on the other graph (solid black line). On the HD800 plot the 200Hz-3000Hz diff is ~7-8dB and on the other it is ~12dB. The bass boost on the HD800 graph is ~2.5~3dB and is 4dB on the other. I must be misunderstanding what the hand drawn black line is.
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Unless I'm looking at it wrong, the amplitude scale on the target curve (hand drawn solid line) on the HD800 graph does not match the scale of the target curve on the other graph (solid black line). On the HD800 plot the 200Hz-3000Hz diff is ~7-8dB and on the other it is ~12dB. The bass boost on the HD800 graph is ~2.5~3dB and is 4dB on the other.
I didn't notice that. But I'm definitely not boosting that region another 5dB
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Tyll already did the OW correction thing:
(http://beta.innerfidelity.com/images/140321_Blog_HarmanResponseFR_HD800.jpg)
In order to get the OW sound you just need to apply the EQ to this plot thus boosting the bass and 2kHz 'dip' and you will hear 'OW target sound.
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Tyll already did the OW correction thing:
(http://beta.innerfidelity.com/images/140321_Blog_HarmanResponseFR_HD800.jpg)
In order to get the OW sound you just need to apply the EQ to this plot thus boosting the bass and 2kHz 'dip' and you will hear 'OW target sound.
You mean to say we need to make the red/blue traces in that curve flat. So my proposed EQ should more or less do the trick?
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Can someone help me out and give this a listen. With lossless source obviously.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZV7akaSo0s
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You mean to say we need to make the red/blue traces in that curve flat. So my proposed EQ should more or less do the trick?
Yup a 'flat' line = OW target reached = OW's view on what sounds 'correct' to people in general.
It fits quite well with your method because the same raw plots and correction is used.
Don't own a HD800 but if I did I would likely have used roughly the same EQ.
There are some other well known headphones you can apply the same trick to.
http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/first-test-estimated-harman-target-response-curve-various-headphones (http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/first-test-estimated-harman-target-response-curve-various-headphones)
They should all sound the same tonally yet all still sound different in some aspects.
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For what it's worth, DSP correction curve based on my own measurements of unmodified HD-800 closely matches one based on Harman target and developed by Tyll (pictured above). Specifically +6db at 1.5 kHz is the same as well as -6db at 6kHz as well as +3db at 80Hz and +6db at 30Hz. Minor differences are: at 200Hz Tyll already has 1db added while on mine compensation starts at 220Hz and reaches 1db at 350Hz. While Tyll leaves everything above 7kHz uncorrected mine fixes few minor issues there as well.
Resulting tonality in my case ends up being quite a bit different from uncorrected original but closely matches DSPd HD-600s (correction curves for both are still very different).
Just to reiterate, I don't use Harman curve for target yet somehow arrive at the same main correction points. Wondering if our pairs sound any similar with mine being completely unmodified while probably employing a bit more sophisticated correction algorithm.
One more thing, based on my experience once headphone is being equalized throughout entire frequency range every single db matters, a lot.... . Unfortunately those db's are easy to miss and I suppose that is why EQ is not very popular with neither headphones or loudspeakers.
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I don't think Tyll developped an OW alike compensation curve.
He just applied the OW correction curves to his raw measurements.
Don't use the Harmon target myself but do use some compensation in the subbass.
So my plots will be somewhere between OW and raw measurements (on a flatbed rig) when the bass is showing a horizontal line.
An LCD2 will thus show some subbass roll-off when measured.
yes, every dB matters indeed. Problem is are those dB's rig/microphone related, acoustic related or headphone driver related ?
It is nonsense to try to extremely accurately EQ a headphone based on (someone else's ?) plots.
Even between (matched) drivers differences of several dB's can and do occur.
I have measured many T50RP drivers and none of them are the same.
Dips of 10dB and even peaks in that magnitude cand be hard to correct with EQ.
I feel that a 'general' direction (in other words a gentle correction curve) to get it closer to 'flat' works better than heroic EQ based on (incorrect) or other ones measurements.
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This is basically what our company does. In a plug-in and mainly marketed towards pro users.
(http://media.soundonsound.com/images/shop/covers/2015/05/1505_UK_L.jpg)
Supposedly, we're pretty good at it. Feel free to give a whirl - http://sonarworks.com/try-now/
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I should dig up my HD800 measurements. I don't think I ever posted them...IIRC it was actually quite linear stock aside from the boosted treble, starting with that 6KHz spot and on.
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This is basically what our company does. In a plug-in and mainly marketed towards pro users.
Supposedly, we're pretty good at it. Feel free to give a whirl - http://sonarworks.com/try-now/
No Audeze, No HifiMan, No Mr. Speakers, NO Fostex - Presets! What's Going on??
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No Audeze, No HifiMan, No Mr. Speakers, NO Fostex - Presets! What's Going on??
In the grand scheme of things, those are still niche products.
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The consistency with Audeze cans is all over the place. Pretty sure that there won't be a preset anytime soon. With that said, calibration really did help with my LCD-2's, added the much needed treble and got rid of channel differences.
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Must say that your plugin works quite nicely on my unmodded 800's(returned them to stock for resale). Haven't found any harshness yet i also don't feel i'm missing anything. Gonna try them out on the crack tomorrow and see how the curve works with a 120ohm output impedence.
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Downloaded the Sonarworks and checked both HD-650 and HD-800 presets via JRiver/Yggy/Rag. Sounds different from my own DSPd variants. Proper EQ is extremely difficult to do right ... .
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Yep i never got it right without modding, that 6k resonance cannot be EQed out. With this EQ it is just a minor annoyance but an annoyance non the less.
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I wonder how much that ~6k is headphone positioning variant. I don't think it would move from 6k to 10k, but a few Hz might render super-fine tunning difficult. Proly best to just do something rough that helps at different headphone positions.
In measurements, sometimes a notch will move a few Hz if you move the headphone relative to the mic.
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I wonder how much that ~6k is headphone positioning variant. I don't think it would move from 6k to 10k, but a few Hz might render super-fine tunning difficult. Proly best to just do something rough that helps at different headphone positions.
In measurements, sometimes a notch will move a few Hz if you move the headphone relative to the mic.
It changes a wee bit with positioning, but it's not going to go away. Unless you wear it inside-out.
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This is basically what our company does. In a plug-in and mainly marketed towards pro users.
Supposedly, we're pretty good at it. Feel free to give a whirl - http://sonarworks.com/try-now/
You're now a MoT. You're not allowed to talk about your products until you send us your first born child.
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FWIW, on a Mac, you can use the CoreAudio Audio Units that come with OS X for the parametric EQ. They're supposed to be very high quality implementations.
You will need a hosting app, since iTunes cannot use it directly. I use Audio Hijack --- it's OK, though it will glitch if your computer is under load. I don't have an HD800 (yet), so I eyeballed the settings based on Tyll's published raw HD650, and applied a rough curve just to get an idea of where the EQ's headed. I was especially interested in that weird 1-3kHz rise.
I used the AUNBandEQ module with:
+4 dB low shelf at 60Hz
+4 dB parametric EQ at 1000Hz, width = 3.2
+12 dB parametric EQ at 10Hz, width = 4
63% gain (to keep the bass from clipping)
This is guesstimated stuff, and is probably way off, so consider it only as a starting point. The gain is kind of hard to set because of the AU's silly interface, but if you're below 65%, you should be OK. I heard the onset of distortion around 72%. The track I used to test for this is Bundle of Joy, the first track from the Inside Out soundtrack: listen to the deep bass notes right at 34 seconds from the end, or 2:15 of this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jRHsRNIieQ
The bass is a little wooly in the YT video compared to the iTunes download, but it's OK for telling the distortion level.
Hope this useful!
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So...I don't suppose anyone has actually listened to the Harman curve on the HD800 yet..... :)p8
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Anyway, the boost in the upper-midrange just doesn't sound right to me. Sure Tyll is right in that it does bring out vocals, but it just totally kills the HD800's natural rendition of instrument and vocal timbre. Sting's voice definitely doesn't sound like that on my other headphones or any speakers I've ever built. Guitars aren't supposed to take on that plastic AKG quality. At the end of the day I can consider the possibility that I've just got used to the HD800's laid back upper-mids and don't want it to change. Either way I'd recommend a more subtle boost in that region (say 3dB), if at all.
Surprisingly the 6k adjustment isn't doing much for me. I did try playing with the Q a bit but it's actually not a dealbreaker here. Probably because the 3.0 variant of the mods are so damn good at removing that energy. The effect is there, but it's not really taking away any harshness. I was very surprised by this.
The bass boost is very welcome in my book. I've always considered the HD800 a bit bass-lite so the extra bottom does make things more palatable. I'm going to try to play a bit more by ear this time around and see what I find.
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I'm currently running the Sonarworks average EQ for my HD800's in trial mode.
Thus far I'm suitably impressed, but I'll need a bunch more time to hear more varying types of music in order to know if this a keeper, or not.
And I'm wondering what the end result will be if I go for the full meal deal and get the custom EQ curve for my modded 800's.
Curiosity has got the better of me with the possibility of this degree of FR precision (±0.9dB vs ±3.0dB)
This also includes L to R channel balance adjustment, which I have come to know can be very significant if it's off, even if only by a small amount.
This aspect of tweak, was confirmed yet again by The Roks matched, stepped MoarKnob.
And if the 2 drivers get matched to an even greater degree via DSP, well, like I said "Curiosity has got the better of me with the possibility of this degree of FR precision".
I just hope the overall SQ remains with respect to all of the sonic aspects I look for.
JJ
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Here's my EQ-Preset for EasyQ:
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<Equalizer PatchFormat="2" StereoMode="Left/Right" GainRange="6 dB" GlobalGain="-1.93939394">
<Channel>
<Band Mode="Peak/Dip" Frequency="10641.5613" Gain="-1.93939394" Bandwidth="0.25"/>
<Band Mode="Peak/Dip" Frequency="5336.70134" Gain="-3.27272727" Bandwidth="0.4"/>
<Band Mode="Low Shelving" Frequency="58.1753471" Gain="2" Bandwidth="2.03"/>
<Band Mode="Peak/Dip" Frequency="247.030078" Gain="-2.24242424" Bandwidth="1.92"/>
<Band Mode="Peak/Dip" Frequency="3481.16203" Gain="2.39393939" Bandwidth="0.32"/>
<Band Mode="Peak/Dip" Frequency="7173.47624" Gain="-2.06060606" Bandwidth="0.25"/>
<Band Mode="Peak/Dip" Frequency="509.04393" Gain="-1.45454545" Bandwidth="1.36"/>
<Band Mode="High Shelving" Frequency="14071.0216" Gain="2.54545455"
Bandwidth="1.33"/>
</Channel>
<Channel>
<Band Mode="Peak/Dip" Frequency="3424.42573" Gain="2.39393939" Bandwidth="0.31"/>
<Band Mode="Peak/Dip" Frequency="247.030078" Gain="-2" Bandwidth="1.89996863"/>
<Band Mode="Peak/Dip" Frequency="509.04393" Gain="-1.45454545" Bandwidth="1.73"/>
<Band Mode="Low Shelving" Frequency="58.1753471" Gain="2.03030303"
Bandwidth="2.08"/>
<Band Mode="Peak/Dip" Frequency="10817.872" Gain="-2.66666667" Bandwidth="0.25"/>
<Band Mode="Peak/Dip" Frequency="5249.72328" Gain="-1.57575758" Bandwidth="0.62"/>
<Band Mode="High Shelving" Frequency="14071.0216" Gain="2.54545455"
Bandwidth="1.29"/>
</Channel>
</Equalizer>
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Being a cheap bastard i tried to copy the sonarworks settings in equalizer apo, which didn't work haha. Anyways i did come up with something i quite like so far:
(http://i.imgur.com/KmKw9mc.jpg)
I tried the harman curve and i didn't care for it tbh.
Edit: several revisions later i have to conclude that my sanity is worth more then being a cheap bastard.
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When we developed our software getting the filters to sound good was a real pain in the rear. Implementing FIR filters isn't that hard, but developing them so they don't sound like shite is less than trivial. Our first attempts sounded like spoons being banged on old radiators - crazy pre-ringing. We were lucky to find a mathematician who knew how to code and knew a lot about audio, thus the development process was hard science driven, but always reaffirmed by ear.
Our reference curve was developed independent from Harman, but our science guys did exchange e-mails with Sean Olive to get some tips from the best. The basic process behind our curve went like this - first we developed our digital room correction tool, so we could get a flat sounding AFR from our reference speakers. Then we went on a long journey to EQ a pair of headphones, so they sound tonally close to what we got from the speakers. The idea is that one should experience very minor tonal changes when switching from neutral speakers to neutral headphones. Sure, bass and soundstage is fundamentally different on speakers and headphones, but midrange is mostly the same and that's where most of the music is.
What's interesting, initially we only had pro audio guys as our customers. We give them better mix translation, more confidence, less double checking... but they also told me that their studio speakers and headphones became more enjoyable to listen to. There is a pro-audio myth floating around that good studio speakers/headphones should sound bad. Therefore if your mix sounds good on something bad then it should sound good on everything bad or good. I don't subscribe to that and neither do my friends at Sonarworks. If your mix sounds good on a neutral system, then there's a good chance that it will be good on 80% systems out there. Also, if you need a grot-box to check your mixes, then you can always DSP change a Genelec to an NS10. Much harder to do it the other way around.
P.S. We are okay with people being cheap bastards. Just don't steal the software, our main dev is a high functioning sociopath and I can't always be around to tell him not to build in some anti-pirate (not pyrate!) tripwire.
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No worries if i end up using it full time i will pay for a license. One question or suggestion perhaps you can create a consumer oriented version that works through an APO? That way it will be system wide and allot easier to use for other kinds of applications. I know you can use stuff like virtual audio cable but an APO is a much cleaner and easier solution for a consumer.
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We're thinking about making an app which sits at system audio level. Should make routing audio trivial. There should also be a switch to make going from headphone calibration to speaker calibration much easier.
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Honestly, I think a lot of people should be able to look at the publicly available FR plots and the vast swath of internet knowledge and come up with an EQ curve that works for them. Not to detract from your software; the plugin has a great UI and toolset. As to whether an EQ curve can be proprietary IP...... :-S :-\ :-X
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Implementing FIR filters isn't that hard, but developing them so they don't sound like shite is less than trivial. Our first attempts sounded like spoons being banged on old radiators - crazy pre-ringing.
Most impressive. Your's doesn't have that low-fi grain/mud and lack of life that every other eq (or any dsp) has pro or consumer i have tried. I'm religious in this and usually hatered comes from me regarding dsp-s.
HD800 preset though coupled with my cranium + some rug liner mod have way too much bass and some weirdness in upper treble.
The upper treble thing is at least partly due the mod (guessing), though some dizziness is unlikely due to the mod. Bass is easy to fix with the bass slider.
Point by point:
- more depth and frontal projection in headstage, somewhat less width and slight confusion in imaging (needs verifing). Makes me wonder whether some cross-feed is being used?
- tonal balance is definently closer to Genelec 8050 than before. I don't know yet what to make out of this, will listen more.
- I like the bass quality. Though this is entry-basshead levels of quantity, generaly not my thing, but at times :D....
- No apparent lack of dynamics and fluidity.
- Treble is sometimes sizzling and slightly grating.
- Maybe some slight microdynamic compression
- Aids the mod in shelving excessive brightness
- Less shouty in some tracks mic-ed closely
Will report back with more complete impressions. Definently recommend to pirates!
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We're thinking about making an app which sits at system audio level. Should make routing audio trivial. There should also be a switch to make going from headphone calibration to speaker calibration much easier.
Forgive me for being thick, but where do I open the trial version on a PC after installing?
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You need vst host program, JRiver has it by default, Foobar needs add-in host.
Go to Program Files (x86) in Windows--> VST Plugins through the host menu. Activate. Done.
Mac players that have vst host should find AU plugin by themselves.
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Forgive me for being thick, but where do I open the trial version on a PC after installing?
You need something which is able to run plug-ins. If you use Foobar2000, VST Wrapper is the most painless. On Mac, either JRiver or Soundflower/AU Lab.
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We're thinking about making an app which sits at system audio level. Should make routing audio trivial. There should also be a switch to make going from headphone calibration to speaker calibration much easier.
Ok sounds cool!
Listening to some Trentemoller and that phat bass on the 800 holy fucking shit.
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Honestly, I think a lot of people should be able to look at the publicly available FR plots and the vast swath of internet knowledge and come up with an EQ curve that works for them. Not to detract from your software; the plugin has a great UI and toolset. As to whether an EQ curve can be proprietary IP...... :-S :-\ :-X
Not my call to make, OJ. Pretty sure, if you redraw our curves by hand from the plug-in and run them on another EQ tool, you'll be 80% there, depending on how good the EQ's dsp is and how steady your hand is.
At the same time - generating these correction profiles takes time and money. We buy the headphones we measure and every profile needs to be made from averaging out many samples from the same model to account for variation. Every measurement needs to be analyzed by an engineer to determine if we're not correcting for measurement artifacts. Then we do rounds of both sighted and blind testing to see if we can assure that you get the reference sound we promise. There are batches of headphones which we bought, measured and they didn't make to public release. Mostly due to reasons related to unreliable sealing or severe resonances.
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I figure most audiophiles are tweak-o's and would like to do things themselves, but, as I said, your plug-in offers a easy retard-proof way to "fix" things. Even if there are detriments to one size fit all approach.
But excuse me, I'll let the thread hijack continue :)p8
Mayhaps you guys could include a OW preset curve so people could correct their headphones to the newest FOTM curve
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Mayhaps you guys could include a OW preset curve so people could correct their headphones to the newest FOTM curve
Brownies for you . Why the fuck did this fuckin OW curve become the new standard for everybody ?
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Brownies for you . Why the fuck did this fuckin OW curve become the new standard for everybody ?
Someone published a white paper.
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Brownies for you . Why the fuck did this fuckin OW curve become the new standard for everybody ?
Why do you think headphones AFR wise are all over the place? There is NO standard how to measure headphone AFR. Not to mention that there currently are NO tools purpose made for measuring that. To my knowledge all head-cheek couplers and dummy heads are meant to measure SPL's so they can ban cans like MDR-7520 in EU.
The reason is that for a long long time headphones were the underdog for listening. Something for those late night listens to not wake the kids up. It just wasn't a priority for acoustic research. I fully agree with the guys saying that studio monitors in many regards are light years ahead of headphones.
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Someone published a white paper.
that didn't convince me that much. Interesting work though.
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Tyll already did the OW correction thing:
(http://beta.innerfidelity.com/images/140321_Blog_HarmanResponseFR_HD800.jpg)
In order to get the OW sound you just need to apply the EQ to this plot ...
Not so easy with HD800. FR measurements are almost always with a long window (or at least a long window relative to short wavelength / high frequencies). Problem with the HD800 is reflections from inside the cups. Our ears and the supercomputers inside our heads may be able to distinguish to some extent between the original signal from the super early reflections that cause the 6kHz measurement peak.
Our ears don't hear in long FFT windows.
There is a lot of art that goes into measuring and EQ. Anyone who has taken measurements on speakers (with gated FFT windows to avoid floor, side, ceiling reflections) and un-gated full length FFTs understands this. This is why I've thought about also doing the V1 measurements of the past where I used a sponge as a coupler.
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that didn't convince me that much. Interesting work though.
But it's a white paper!
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I still would have liked to see the measurements of the reference speaker that was used for the OW curve. On-axis, 30 degree off-axis. Anechoic or gated, or in-room at listening position measurements. Correct me if I am wrong, but all I remember reading was something to the effect of "we used our super-duper high-end calibrated flat Harmon reference speakers and averaged the result on three microphones ... just trust us... it was totally neutral." It seems this would have been a crucial piece, but somehow the details of this went missing.
It's like fathom being based on the outstretched length of man's arms.
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While it is a logical possible target EQ curve to match a speaker in a room (which speaker, which room, placement within the room, etc), I am not sure if this is the "holy grail" for all headphone listening. When I made my own binaural recordings in college in the early 90s, I found the best headphones for playback of them for the most realistic experience were my 1990 DT990s which were diffuse field equalized. They were better than the AKGs and Sennheisers at the time for that application, in my experience. I suspect the HD800 would work well with binaural recordings.
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I have tried playing with the proposed EQ on IF for the HD800s. A little boost in the bass of around 3-5db (more db towards 20-30hz) is acceptable, as is EQ'ing down some of the treble. I think +6db at 1.5khz is too much though. The most I EQ'd up the upper midrange was 3db.
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I suspect the HD800 would work well with binaural recordings.
Oh god, it's freaking ridiculous how good those can sound.
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I have tried playing with the proposed EQ on IF for the HD800s. A little boost in the bass of around 3-5db (more db towards 20-30hz) is acceptable, as is EQ'ing down some of the treble. I think +6db at 1.5khz is too much though. The most I EQ'd up the upper midrange was 3db.
So you're hearing that same issue. That's clearly too much boost there for the HD800. Maybe OW curve would sound better with other 'phones. AKGs perhaps ;)
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Anyone have a recommendation for a VST plugin?
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Stupid question to reconfirm: Do the IF measurements actually use the OW compensation?
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Stupid question to reconfirm: Do the IF measurements actually use the OW compensation?
No, Tyll did an article where he applied the new OW curve to all the raw response, but everything in database is not OW corrected
http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/first-test-estimated-harman-target-response-curve-various-headphones
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Got it....
My quick assessment: WTF the bass? The did reference Harmon speaker/room have 12db, 8db, and 4db modes at 22Hz, 45Hz, and 90Hz?
Other consideration: How equivalent is Tyll's measurement system to Sean Olive's measurement system? This might be crucial. For example, maybe Tyll gets a better seal than Olive.
P.S. Oh shit, I forgot that I had commented on it about 1.5 years ago and said the same thing.
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Got it....
My quick assessment: WTF the bass? The did reference Harmon speaker/room have 12db, 8db, and 4db modes at 22Hz, 45Hz, and 90Hz?
Other consideration: How equivalent is Tyll's measurement system to Sean Olive's measurement system? This might be crucial. For example, maybe Tyll gets a better seal than Olive.
Someone more familiar with OW's work can correct me, but as I understand they used a fair bit of listener polling. Listeners wanted 4dB boost throughout bass region.
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Did the people they poll look like this?
(http://www.maplewoodonline.com/tech_images/biz_markie.jpg)
(http://www.soulbounce.com/soul/wp-content/uploads/blog_images_07_13/robin-thicke-headphones.jpg)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-P6SrXTk9Yqg/U3KvLrg_dMI/AAAAAAAAAGQ/v1X8OZxz36U/s1600/Britney-Spears-Work-B-tch-04.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/07/Skylab_(SL-4).jpg)
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We're thinking about making an app which sits at system audio level. Should make routing audio trivial. There should also be a switch to make going from headphone calibration to speaker calibration much easier.
Yes that would make the transition easier as now in I need to go into JRiver DSP and fuss.
However using the wet/dry control can also be handy…
And the more I learn of the plugins functionality the more 'handy' it becomes.
It would be even more handy if the headphone correction could be toggled on/off while leaving the other 'reference curves' active.
JJ
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Can the Sonar Works plug in be accessed through jRiver on PC? I just can't seem to figure out how this works.
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Can the Sonar Works plug in be accessed through jRiver on PC? I just can't seem to figure out how this works.
Yes, once you have it downloaded go to DSP Studio > manage plug-ins > VST > find the .dll file
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Thanks. I had tried that, but the ones I used did nothing. BTW, there are 23 .dll files in my jRiver.
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Yes, the 3db bass boost is the listeners' preferred curve. The bass boost is iffy for me, because some headphones just have natural, extending, and potent bass. Others don't. So some need the boost, some don't. The HD800 has natural, potent, and well extending bass. The only EQ it needs in the bass region is to compensate for rolloff, but it definitely doesn't need a boost throughout the entire region. It already has a little hump in the mid-bass to begin with. Other headphones with measurably flat bass like the older LCD2 and now the LCD-X, don't need it either. Some headphones, like the Focal Spirit Professional have that 3db hump, and it sounds nice and balanced.
Bob Katz is all 4 of those pictures, yes.
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Could the .dll files be applied to work with Apple Music on a PC?
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Sonarworks made HD 25s semi listenable but didn't really improve the current HD 600 and HD 650 enough. Maybe if I were mixing on the HD 650 but I wouldn't mix on the HD 650 on the go as then I would need to carry around an amp powerful enough to use their DSP with the HD 650.
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Besides compensating for bass roll-off, there isn't that much to correct on the HD650. These and the HD600 are one of the most neutral headphones currently on the market.
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How equivalent is Tyll's measurement system to Sean Olive's measurement system? This might be crucial. For example, maybe Tyll gets a better seal than Olive.
He uses a Kemar from B&K. Theoretically it should be quite close.
Please folks remember that the current Harman curve is their first pass guestimate and existed to include in blind testing vs. other compensation curve to see if it was preferred----which it was. It does not represent a finished proposed standardization curve to be added to any of the international standards. So, it should be strongly considered a work in progress still.
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https://youtu.be/J-q4J4OY4EM?t=1897 (https://youtu.be/J-q4J4OY4EM?t=1897)
I'd just like to qualify my take on the previously mentioned OW curve. It turns out the 3.0 variant of the Anax mod already has a similar boost/compensation in the upper mids which would (as I understand) make my proposed EQ curve wrong. Would also explain my negative reaction.
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Speaking of VSTs, is there a way to apply VSTs system-wide?
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If you are just looking for a system wide parametric EQ I would recommend Equalizer APO.
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on windows, I integrate VSTs with HifiCable and VSTHost.
http://vbaudio.jcedeveloppement.com/Download_CABLE/HiFiCableAsioBridgeSetup_v1007.zip (http://vbaudio.jcedeveloppement.com/Download_CABLE/HiFiCableAsioBridgeSetup_v1007.zip)
http://www.hermannseib.com/english/vsthost.htm (http://www.hermannseib.com/english/vsthost.htm)
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on windows, I ...
Not VST, but, on Linux, using JACK, I use Calf plugins. Ido feel that the is a small loss of sound quality, though.
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Most impressive. Your's doesn't have that low-fi grain/mud and lack of life that every other eq (or any dsp) has pro or consumer i have tried. I'm religious in this and usually hatered comes from me regarding dsp-s.
HD800 preset though coupled with my cranium + some rug liner mod have way too much bass and some weirdness in upper treble.
The upper treble thing is at least partly due the mod (guessing), though some dizziness is unlikely due to the mod. Bass is easy to fix with the bass slider.
Point by point:
- more depth and frontal projection in headstage, somewhat less width and slight confusion in imaging (needs verifing). Makes me wonder whether some cross-feed is being used?
- tonal balance is definently closer to Genelec 8050 than before. I don't know yet what to make out of this, will listen more.
- I like the bass quality. Though this is entry-basshead levels of quantity, generaly not my thing, but at times :D ....
- No apparent lack of dynamics and fluidity.
- Treble is sometimes sizzling and slightly grating.
- Maybe some slight microdynamic compression
- Aids the mod in shelving excessive brightness
- Less shouty in some tracks mic-ed closely
Will report back with more complete impressions. Definently recommend to pirates!
+1 x 10^100
Some well recorded pipe organ music, with non-overloaded extreme bottom end, is MOST impressive.
But there is some zizz in the upper mids that can get seemingly 'triggered' by certain complex harmonic 'voices' (both organic and instrumental), which is or can be disconserting when it 'goes off'.
I'm hoing that this can and will be 'fixed' somehow someway…
Because thus far even with the (I assume) mismatch between the correction of the 'stock' cans and my modded 800's, the results are better in most of, if not all of, the key aspects I use to decide what IS better.
JJ
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I did also EQ my HD800 according to the harman curve.
I have been using an EQ with them ever since and kept refining the settings.
(basically it was a bass boost + reducing treble peaks before)
The first few minutes I wasn't too sure about that quite significant change in the 1,5khz region.
I'm using the new settings for a few days now and the "new" sound has really settled on me
and I think voices are really sounding better. First I thought they sounded slightly nasal to me after the change.
But it's actually like the voices now sound more distinct and less distant and have more character to them.
I think it's really worth trying out.
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Why don't you guys make your own target curves. The Harmon / OW curves is like beating a dead horse.
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Why don't you guys make your own target curves. The Harmon / OW curves is like beating a dead horse.
Well there might be something to it if that's what Anax 3.0 is doing. But 3.0 also does other really good things so maybe I'm getting them confused.
We still don't have a lot of people posting listening impressions of their OW-ized headphones. Has anyone tried OW-ing their HD6xx, LCD, Hifiman, Stax, etc?
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I have ATH m50 MkII and I am trying to figure out how to go about getting them to match the curve. Can someone explain? I have jriver and several VST eqs.
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I have ATH m50 MkII and I am trying to figure out how to go about getting them to match the curve. Can someone explain? I have jriver and several VST eqs.
Does MkII mean M50x?
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Does MkII mean M50x?
Audiotechnica retuned the m50 to be slightly less bass bloated before they made the current x version.
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Late to the discussion but regardless: Does anybody know which revision of anax mod was used in the HD800 Tyll measured and Bob EQed?
P.S As an EQ first timer I tried to recreate the EQ according to Tylls notes. This is the results: http://imgur.com/leWdmw9
Feel free to let me know if I fucked up big time.
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Late to the discussion but regardless: Does anybody know which revision of anax mod was used in the HD800 Tyll measured and Bob EQed?
P.S As an EQ first timer I tried to recreate the EQ according to Tylls notes. This is the results: http://imgur.com/leWdmw9
Feel free to let me know if I fucked up big time.
They might have been using stock...or the mods that are outlined in the Innerfidelity article. Which as I understand is different from Anax 2.0.
You need to make the treble EQ much higher Q. You want to kill that 6k peak, not bring down everything
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They might have been using stock...or the mods that are outlined in the Innerfidelity article. Which as I understand is different from Anax 2.0.
You need to make the treble EQ much higher Q. You want to kill that 6k peak, not bring down everything
When they showed the EQ on Bob's laptop it looked like the db decrease was from 6k and up. It was probably just "zoomed in" on a spectrum of 10hz - 6 or 7k.
Regardless they used some kind of anax mod. They said that they did, but never specified which one, not in the article and not in the video. Doesn't matter, I was just curious.
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Check the 2nd image in the first post again. That drop is inherent to the curve and the 800 follows it fairly well. It's just that 6k region that they're bringing down
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It's Tyll's version with a large felt ring. No liner material+dust covers.