CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => Pirate's Booty and Walking the Plank => Topic started by: Marvey on November 21, 2014, 06:47:54 PM
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Want to keep things fun and very irreverent a la Changstar. Members only. List five worst pieces of audio gear you guys have ever heard. I was made to do this by some dude who talked a lot about shlongs in the world of hi-fi.
Think of this as an update to the old walkin' the plank list. The flip side of the leaderboard. Shoot! Some explanation of why such an item makes your list is required.
BTW I don't get upset or take it personally when people don't like stuff I like. For example, I like the MDR-Z7. But lots of people don't. It doesn't rub me the wrong way at all. In fact, I understand why they don't like it. Thought I should say that because people can get all sensitive and stuff.
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In absolute scale it would be boring list of tv-s and cheap earpuds.
Instead i dug in my memory for some names that might ring a bell here or there:
1. older Skullcandy earbuds sucked hard for such hype, the whole sound signature was bloated
2. Technics RP DH1200, these were pretty bad sounding for the asking price, even for a DJ can. Highs rolled off from ~4k
3. Senn HD201 were pretty poor, hollow sounding, lacking coherency, but not too bad for the money
4. RME soundcards are way overhyped in terms of sq, outperformed by a ODAC, probably
5. Logitech computer soundsets in general, a decent pair of small active nearfields can be had for the money
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Yeah - updated the post to be more clear. I figure I'll go second or third to make things more interesting.
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HD-485 and MDR-700DJ just for their SQ / Build Quality / Comfort and Price.
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Violectric V200 - Bought this amp to help deal with the HD800's brightness. I found it dull, smeared and closed in. Tried to live with it for 3 months, then sold it. Definitely not a Violectric fan after that.
Grado GS1000 - Heard this at a local Hifi Shop. I don't remember the exact problem with it, but I was done with these in 15 minutes. It was being played through a hi end McIntosh Preamp (forgot the DAC) and probably $10,000 worth of cables, so it didn't have any excuse for sounding as poor as it did.
CENtrance Dacmini - crappy DAC + weaksauce headphone amp = why bother? This was a loaner from Cable Company, so I'm not too mad about it.
Burson Conductor - It was doing good (not great) until the driver installed spyware on my computer. That kind of puts a negative bias on how Burson products sound after that. This was another Cable Company loan.
So I feel good I haven't gotten burned on that many actual purchases so far. I'm having trouble coming up with a 5th, so I'll leave it there.
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Sony PHA-1
Original Beats Solo
Old Bose noise-canceling headphone (don't remember the model number)
Phiaton MS-400
Benchmark DAC1
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I thought the DT880 sounded lifeless and boring.
Denon AH-D5000 Markl Modded. LOL the sound signature of a circus tent. And the depressed looking elephant walking around is the bass. The stressed out midget on it's back is the treble. What a precarious situation.
Bel Canto DAC3. EW. Where is the musicality, the inner layering, the detail.
Lavry DA10. What an awkward attempt at neutrality.
Benchmark DAC1. Who is shattering glass while I'm trying to listen to these speakers.
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Fun!
1) Sennheiser HD700 - Oh shit is that blood coming from your ear? Na they ain't that bad. No they really are, total poo
2) Chord Hugo (yes, I'm so sorry but I did own one... one of the biggest regrets of my life) - Craptastic amp stage. Clean and clear gives the illusion of something hi-end but after awhile you crave emotion. Looks like a POS, horrible build and packaging. When I have a kid, I'll let them know that Chord is looking for applicants to design their Hugo 2. About 2K overpriced, yea enjoy it. Lifeless, boring, like one of those monotone professors that you are forced to listen to because they are the only one that teaches upper-division bio. :vomit:
3) JH Roxanne - Who is the idiot who came up with the idea that more drivers = better sound quality? I'd like to met the man and ask for tips how to rip people off.
4) Ultrasone - Named the brand because everything I've heard from them has been funky sounding. Get rid of that S-Logic crap, kthx.
5) Sony MDR-XB500 - Wub Wub
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Worst piece of gear factoring in price/reputation was this:
(http://jlvalin.zenfolio.com/img/s4/v68/p1471245470-3.jpg)
Albert von Schweikert’s $140k seven-driver, ribbon/cone hybrid VR100 XS, paired with two of Albert’s Shockwave subwoofers and bi-amped by Kronzilla tubes on top and Channel Islands Class D on the subs TAS considered them best in show contenders. They punctured my eardrums at like 70dB
(http://en.devialet.com/assets/a-systems/devialet-120-slide.jpg)
Worst component I've ever owned in my system was a Devialet 120. Flat when omitting, shrill beyond anything I've heard. (especially when paired with ceramic drivers.) Imagine all the GS-X's perceived flaws magnified 5x.
(http://uncrate.com/p/2013/02/meridian-explorer-xl.jpg)
Original meridian explorer suffered from the opposite kind of issue. Mushy sound, wooly bass, it was like listening to music submerged in a vat of jello.
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3334/3190678622_68e7a1575b.jpg)
Most disappointing headphone/amp combo was a pair of HE60's I bought from Spritzer that he did some kind of dustcover mod and retermination on. I'm not incriminating the headphone itself as it was probably the mods that rendered the highs piercing and shrill and the rest of the sound very anemic, save for the dynamic-like punch. Sold both headphones and amp to blue, even though he knew what I thought of them. He sold them both too.
(http://www.musik-produktiv.co.uk/pic-010061119_03xxl/ultrasone-pro-900_03xxl.jpg)
Ultrasone Pro 900. It was a while back and its almost beating a dead horse at this point, but man were these bad. No cyclical love/hate cycle can change this headphone from feeling like an anechoic chamber that slowly sucks your ability to hear into the walls while you listen to alternately dead and shrill EDM as that's the only kind of music anyone has ever claimed these can sound passable with.
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Tari, you've been holding out on us. You never told me you owned the Deviant stuff. Didn't I warn peeps? Or was it already too late.
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The Sonic Frontiers SFD2 Mk2 was thick and blurry, couldn't listen to it on headphones.
Sounded like the best DAC I've ever heard on speakers. Best sounding speaker set-up to this day in fact.
Was that the same DAC unit? I know tubes can make a difference. Another more likely issue might have been the input impedance of the pre-amp or head-amp. The SFD-1 I have barfed into an headamp which I think had a 10k pot or something like that. The SFD outputs are cap coupled and the caps may have been too small for effective transference of bass signals.
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Tari, you've been holding out on us. You never told me you owned the Deviant stuff. Didn't I warn peeps? Or was it already too late.
I think you said the rig sounded like being in a bathroom. Don't remember if that was before or after I bought it. Its rep is great though so it sold in a day.
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Sony earbuds ex71sl or somethingrather
- Sounded so bad it pushed me into the hobby really
Beyerdynamic T1
-To this day I do not understand why people like this headphone.
AKG K240 Studio
-Yuuuuuuck
Ps Audio Nuwave dac
- Huge disappointment
Stax Omega II mk 2
- Maybe it was the straight out of the box and unadjusted fit, but they sounded nothing like I would expect in the company of a mk1 and a 009
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- SHure SRH1840 .. awful. I hated this headphone the first second when I tried it at a meet. it's beyond all reason . I hate that . Honky as hell. I can only hear those shitty mids and nothing else around.
- Geek out 450 ( old FW I guess ? ) tried it with my SE535. exploded my ears , reduced the volume and heard Shrkkshrrrrkk shitty noise. sent back immediately.
- Beyerdynamic T70p. I can almost bear a DT880 or a T1 but T70p can rejoin the SRH1840 in my personal dustbin. kind of mix of a broken twitter and a kid who plays with foil paper
- Beats solo the first . Can't understand how it's possible to seriously send that crap.
- Sony XB5/700. Headphone for hydrocephalus I guess ?
- Hegel HD10 DAC. not bad but very bad association (harsh, harsh and ... harsh ? ) with my HD800. one of the worst period for me since i'm in audio business. Each time I turned on my rig, I was afraid to listen to music. a nightmare.
Ok I gave 6 examples. but I really need to exorcise them for my own safety.
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Starting at the top of the price scale:
(http://www.highendpalace.com/581e.jpg)
I've yet to hear a JM/Focal I've particularly liked, but this Grande Utopia Be (then $90K) was just an epic failure. I heard it in a dealer showroom with all ARC Reference amps and source components. It sounded like somebody fired a reverse shrink ray at an average $2K speaker. I've not heard the current split cabinet EM version that is now something like $140K+
Wilson Maxx at the same dealer driven by Krell FPB amps. I'm not sure which was the bigger contributing factor, but the results were horrible. Bright, thin, sterile. Sonic bleach. Yech.
(http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Site_Images/Magico_mini.jpg)
Magico Mini/II. These were Magico's first commercial products, and were $20K+. Total lack of coherency, super bright, edgy, unpleasant.
(http://a248.e.akamai.net/pix.crutchfield.com/ImageHandler/fixedscale/400/300/products/2007/681/x681GCC250-f_MT.jpeg)
PS Audio GCC-100. This was supposed to be the best sounding version of the GCC integrated amps. I hate to imagine how bad the GCC-250 and 500 were. ICEpower sound at its worst. I don't know what magic the Gaincell was supposed to have, but I didn't hear any of it.
(http://www.concertoaudio.com/images/productos/2419_Martin_Logan_Descent_i_detalles.jpg)
From the people completely incapable of integrating an electrostatic panel with a woofer comes the world's worst high-end subwoofer.
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MYTEK DIGITAL STEREO192-DSD DAC
(http://lghttp.17114.nexcesscdn.net/808784/vking/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/m/y/mytek_stereo192-dsd-dac_mastering_black.jpg)
Luis immediately sensed the glare of death within two seconds after I played music from it. USB was used. The DAC was used and left on for two days before evaluation. Perhaps we needed 400 hours.I looked at Luis and his eyes beamed "really dude, please stop torturing me". I replied "No no no, just give it chance. I want to make sure." Luis squirmed on the coach for 60 more seconds until I decided to end his pain.
Glare is the exact word. The night before, I had turned down the volume of my speaker system for background music. Sitting in the dining room, I could still hear the glare in the background. Gahhhhhhh! That's just so wrong.
SHURE SRH1440
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/812PliJcFGL._SL1500_.jpg)
Using words to describe this headphone does not do it justice. Instead, I submit these exhibits:
Upper midrange (and treble) galore.
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=463.0;attach=2105;image)
Distortion galore. The good thing about the massive distortion in the bass and lower midrange it that is sounds a bit warmer than the FR would indicate. Not much. I'm not sure that's a good thing either.
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=463.0;attach=2107;image)
RSA DARKSTAR
(http://pds.exblog.jp/pds/1/201210/29/75/c0098675_2303897.jpg)
I have nothing against Ray, and I'm trying not to call stuff out as pieces of shit because doing so is just unwarranted; but this was a colossal piece of shit. Flat. Boring. Veiled. Constipated. It sounded like six op-amps at unity gain chained to each other. It does look cool though.
MERIDIAN EXPLORER
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61t8bz2aLdL._SL1200_.jpg)
See what Tari wrote about it. I won't hold back on this one. Meridian are a bunch of boneheads for initially releasing this product with an output impedance of 45 ohms. This goes to show how Meridian wanted in on a market that they had no understanding about. When I first heard it, I thought it was broken, or perhaps that Meridian wanted to hammer it to their house sound. I wasn't surprised when I measured 45 ohms output Z. No one at HF believed me. Until Tyll confirmed my findings.
LEBEN CS-300X
(http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/leben/hero.jpg)
This is another piece of shit. Based on how it was described to me, I thought the Leben would sound warm and lush like a WA5, Decware, ZD, etc. A colored amp with nice bloom capable of sending to me the astral plane. But noooo. Never have I heard bass rendered so poorly. Slow, syrupy, bloated, muddy. I'm not even sure if there was even any treble either.
Already mentioned by others:
- Sony PHA-1: Dead and boring. amp section destroys all sound coming into it.
- Sennheiser HD700: Painful at worst. Strange bass at best. Sennheiser's attempt to make a Grado.
- Ultrasone ED8: I am so glad that I did not listen to people at HF.
Other stuff:
- Voxactiv Ampeggio (the wide baffle one): Lets make the naturally rising response of the driver even worse with baffles!
- Ayon GyrFalcon: Let's make a really bad speaker with the most expensive drivers around. Let's watch the drivers flop around in pain.
- Sonus Faber Stradivari: Ahhhhh! Run away. Run away. It's the bass monster! Even JA of Stereophile commented: "... have always featured complex behavior in the lower region of the audioband, and the Stradivari is no exception." Yeah, "complex".
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Violectric V200 - Bought this amp to help deal with the HD800's brightness. I found it dull, smeared and closed in. Tried to live with it for 3 months, then sold it. Definitely not a Violectric fan after that.
Burson Conductor - It was doing good (not great) until the driver installed spyware on my computer. That kind of puts a negative bias on how Burson products sound after that. This was another Cable Company loan.
So I feel good I haven't gotten burned on that many actual purchases so far. I'm having trouble coming up with a 5th, so I'll leave it there.
You are fairly new here, but I think it's interesting you mention those two. I don't think those two amps are horrible; but they are certainly very overrated, especially over on HF. The V200 is exactly how you describe it. In a strange way, a good match, or should I say compatible with the HD800's peculiarities. But it also kills a lot of what the HD800 is capable of.
I didn't know about the spyware crap with Burson. The Burson was kind of wobbly and lacked control.
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Longtime lurker here, longtime Head-Fier, have yet to take the plunge past mid-fi. headbang I tend to agree with your assertions that Head-Fi has gotten over-commercial and people get over-defensive there when you say mean things about their toys. I think you helped explain to me why the Gungnir and HD800 don't pair so well over there (I sold the Gungnir, but I didn't want to list it because I attribute the aggressive sound to the pairing).
I knew the reputation of the V200, but it had a weird effect on the music...like all the tonal colors went to a very well-defined black and white. I literally thought something was wrong with my ears. And again, smeared details on an HD800 isn't fun.
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Can you elaborate on what exactly the spyware was? That doesn't make sense to me, it's not like Sony and the CD rootkit where there's an obvious motive.
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Ultrasone headphones ...
At least 5 of them.
Piercing, raw and boomy
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Not having a great deal of experience, I'm going to offer just one.
This goes back to the days when I was just beginning to wonder if the stock earplugs supplied with what must have been a cassette player could maybe be improved on. I bought this conical-shaped (yellow? orange?) Koss thing. It sounded horrible.
I got into a heap of trouble on some USENET group for saying, without putting "IMHO" every other word, that no, I was not interested in the mods doing the rounds, as I thought they were fit only for the bin. Gave them away.
OK, a general mention for "two." The days when soundblaster sound cards were completely aptly named: it's what they did.
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Adware, not spyware, sorry...It started redirecting pages and opening small video ads on pages they shouldn't have been opening on. I uninstalled the Burson driver, cleaned the hell out of the computer and everything was fine after that.
Details of my experience when it happened:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/627954/burson-conductor-dac-amp-successor-to-the-ha-160d/1485#post_10254974
Some people below me said it wasn't an isolated incident. But this is the ONLY time I've had this issue installing a driver for a piece of equipment.
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1.) Ultrasone Proline 750 : The sound is virtually defective by design. Redefines the meaning of 'harsh' and 'crazy treble'. Hmmm, thinking as a headphone-type reincarnation of delta-sigma sound of a badly implemented Sabre DAC.
2.) Ultrasone Pro 900 : Similar to 750, just slightly in less degree.
3.) Grado PS-1000 : Bass is completely made of distortion... The bass is the distortion itself. Painful high does not help much either.
4.) Sony SA-5000 : Q010 was slightly better, but both headphones were painful treble galore. Only reason I ranked these below PS-1000 is that at least bass was clean enough. SA-3000 was far better headphone in both sonic and comfort.
5.) Bravo Audio V2 Headphone amplifier : Wow, my crappy samsung laptop's audio out is far better than this...
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Ah I see, it seems like Burson is using a very sketchy hosting site for their driver because they can't be bothered to pay for a presumably tiny amount of bandwidth required to do it themselves. Lovely. That's likely where the adware is from, I would've been stunned if they had purposefully injected malicious code into their driver for no reason.
+1 on the Grado GS1000/PS1000. Total poop.
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Denon AH-D7100 $1000 Hamburger headphone
(http://static.trustedreviews.com/94/000023795/b9b1/ahd7100.jpg)
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Not the worst--more like "this is good . . . psych!"
HD598: Smeared everything. Ranges are badly integrated. The aural equivalent of used cheesecloth. And it looks like the Ford administration.
Sansa Clip: Tinny sound. Old casio databank screen. On the good side, it doesn't hiss and you can hide it in your ass in jail. Your smartphone sounds better.
ODAC: Why don't you love my sizzle? But it's good for you! Measurements said so. So did some anonymous engineer's blog. Who the f--- are you to have an opinion, based on what--your ears?! (To my surprise, it improved considerably after burn in, but a "good objectivist" doesn't believe in that sort of thing.)
HP50: Strident, aggressive treble. Earpads like sardine cans. Headband bears noise. Stupid shape. All of this is intentional. I don't want to meet the alien race that designed it.
PM1 with every pad they'll ever make: Treble shoved way down so you have turn the volume up too high but then that throws everything else off. Smoothed over and congested so you lack directional cues. (small earpads + above average clamping) * your $$$ = WTF-phonesTM
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I love these sorts of threads. As other pirates can attest to, I'm a magnet for terrible sounding gear. My least favorites:
(http://www.phileweb.com/news/photo/200811/ULTRAZONE-edition_big.jpg)
Ultrasone Edition 8 -- was looking forward to these being my end game portable headphones. I loved the styling and exotic luxe materials. I was SO ready to love these after Peter from the Great White North proclaimed them to be the best closed headphones ever. Within 10 seconds, I knew these weren't going to last. Glaring, sharp treble on these made even Diana Krall music hard to digest. They actually were the worst Ultrasones I had in my stable at the time -- the HFI-580's were much more balanced, and the Pro 900's at least had that bassy dance club charm to it.
(http://www.audiostream.com/images/8512mytek3.jpg)
Mytek 192 -- Same unit that Marv and Luis heard. I seriously wonder if this was a defective unit. Either way, their review says it all.
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/-FWcRZ74hJtg/TlK7j7zgNuI/AAAAAAAABOM/QWxPqYEwmGM/o2%252520v11%252520board_thumb%25255B1%25255D.jpg?imgmax=800)
Objective 2 -- It's hard to put this on the poo list because it's so cheap and it's a fun DIY project. But after all of the claims of complete neutrality and transparency, this thing sure did fall short of the hype. Biggest issue for me would be the treble glare that turns human vocals into cyborg vocals. Then there's just the lack of resolution and soft, thin sound that really gives me no compelling reason to go back to it.
(https://shop.audio-life.nl/sites/default/files/grado-sr325i.jpg)
Grado 325i -- I guess you can pick anything out of the Grado lineup if you're not a Grado fan (I don't have issue with them as much as others here). But I feel like the 325 is the most egregious example of all the things wrong with Grado.
(http://theoriginalwinger.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/skullcandy-double-agent0.jpg)
Skullcandy Double Agent -- I feel stupid for even posting these, but they are one of the worst things I've listened to. I used these for 3 years for snowboarding before I wised up and started wearing a helmet. Built-in mp3 player was cool, but they were terrible lo-fi headphones that needed to be replaced 3 times in the in 3 years because of failure. Gotta love a lifetime warranty though.
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(https://shop.audio-life.nl/sites/default/files/grado-sr325i.jpg)
Grado 325i -- I guess you can pick anything out of the Grado lineup if you're not a Grado fan (I don't have issue with them as much as others here). But I feel like the 325 is the most egregious example of all the things wrong with Grado.
I'll second the Grado 325is. Mine are sitting in a box somewhere with 3-4 hrs on them. They're like putting knitting needles in my ears.
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- Yulong DA8 -- strident, warm, oddly voiced midrange, no bass/odd bass
- WyWires Red cable on HE-6 -- rolled off, inaccurate, congested lump in the lower mid range/upper bass
- SkullCandy Aviators -- warm, low resolution
- Oppo PM-1 -- only tried it once but was immediately disinterested. Too warm/rolled off and low res if I remember correctly.
- dunno, will edit later
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Just going to +1 on the Mytek 192. You three didn't hear a defective model Questhate. I had the pleasure of listening to a stock HD800 + Mytek + GS-X combo a couple weeks ago. Dante put it best: "many groans pierced me, whose arrows were barbed with pity, at which I covered my ears with my hands."
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I don`t have much experience but...
Why I bought this shitty headset?! Costs about the price of the HD202 and Superlux HD681 on Brazil but :vomit:
(http://i.imgur.com/l2NHoOZ.jpg)
Glady I tried the Kraken before buying it, another shit (the bad one)
(http://i.imgur.com/udouZmm.png)
Sony ZX100...can`t say abou the sound, because they don`t make sound, don`t know what they make (Phillips cheap stuff seens to be much better than Sony cheap stuff)
(http://i.imgur.com/v2mlLiC.jpg)
Oh the Havis... walk the plank
(http://i.imgur.com/lF6XtG2.jpg)
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This is a fun thread! The following are more disappointments to me:
HD700 (paid $700) - Never have I heard a headphone that was artist-dependent and not genre-dependent. Such a shame because I found them supremely comfortable. I did notice however that they do scale well as they did sound noticeably better on the Taurus (compared to my Asgard 2) I was loaning from Cable Co. I might go back if I'm bored enough and can find them cheaper, say around ~$500 and pair them with a tube amp, as some trusted HF buddies have suggested will improve them greatly. Hopefully Sennheiser will have a replacenment at CES next year though.
*Update* I picked these up brand new for $550 and am enjoying them at this price point.
Chord Hugo - So I listened to this at Capital Audio Festival attached to the AK240. This is a $5000 setup that sounded no better to me than the AK240 by itself. I would have expected some wow factor for a $5000 setup. Very overrated and a stupid combination if you ask me given the lack of performance and price.
Z7 (paid $700) - I found it was too dark for my tastes and overpriced because of that. I did think the build quality and comfort was great though.
Sennheiser Momentum - I hate the fact that they call these things over-ear headphones (yes I'm sure I was usingbthe over-ear model and not the in-ear model). Sound quality was good though so I'm literally just adding these in my list out of pure spite.
Every Beats headphone out there (with the exception of the Studio 2013 which sounded alright).
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RSA A-10.
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(Not necessarily bad in terms of absolute fidelity)
JH16/Roxanne: The tuning on those things is just so effed up. I imagine it sounds acceptable for burnt-out rock stars that have lost significant parts of their hearing sensitivity
PSA DirectStream: Funky digititus + blunted transformer veil
Senn HD700: A disgrace to the HD line. How that thing ever got a green light by Senn as a "high-end" headphone is beyond me
O2: Building and listening to this amp as a noob (a rabid minion, I was) is what diverted me to path of "subjectivism". A combination of inner-harshness + op-amp veil + compressed dynamics
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Was that the same DAC unit? I know tubes can make a difference. Another more likely issue might have been the input impedance of the pre-amp or head-amp. The SFD-1 I have barfed into an headamp which I think had a 10k pot or something like that. The SFD outputs are cap coupled and the caps may have been too small for effective transference of bass signals.
You might be right. And I really liked the unit otherwise, definitely not one of the 5 worst pieces of gear I've ever heard.
Maybe I'll switch it with something else, since it is actually the best DAC I've ever heard for speakers, even if I hated in headphones. (in my experience)
I tried desperately to find a reasonably priced mk3 and D2D-1, but the only one I could find was 3k.
That Mackie HR824 mk2 and SFD-2 mk2 synergy tho o_o
O____O
( )____( )
I felt like I was hallucinating soundwaves, and swimming in them. lol So holographic, at that point who cares if it's a bit coloured.
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O2: Building and listening to this amp as a noob (a rabid minion, I was) is what diverted me to path of "subjectivism". A combination of inner-harshness + op-amp veil + compressed dynamics
Oh, the irony.
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Audio Technica ATH-M50: I cannot stand this fucker. It gives me headaches, isn't comfortable or even stable, and sounds ridiculously fucking smashed into your skull.
AKG K240 Studio: This is <THE> most veiled sounding headphone on the planet, I swear. The old K240 fucking slaughters them.
Sony MDR-SA3000: Weaponized distortion cannons. Seriously, ew. Their shit-tastic presentation (not present on the SA5000) makes it even worse.
Pioneer SE-700: Impossible to drive. Slow. Boomy. Nothing but midrange. The most uncomfortable headphone I've ever used. No redeeming qualities whatsoever... well, some people think they're pretty, I guess.
Fostex TH600: Distant, confused clusterfuck of excessive bass and treble energy. No midrange. Tizz galore. Beats + shitty treble. $800? Fostex can go fuck a cactus.
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LOL @Questhate. Stole my Grado 325 thunder!!
So far:
Sony PHA-1
Grado 325i
HD700
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Ultrasone Ed 9 - by far the strangest midrange I have ever heard.
I do love my PS1000s but I would never recommend them to anyone. They are truly overpriced pieces of shit.
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I rather enjoyed GS1000 and PS1000, albeit with mods (TP over drivers) to tame treble. GS1000 was nice for its flat mids.
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I am generally extremely forgiving on stuff - For example, I could simply listen to my pair of FAD Heaven II out of my iPod Shuffle and enjoy music immensely. I adore my V200, on my ex-Sennheiser HD650! Most of the time there is something for me to justify an item's existence (e.g., low price point so it's fine, unique sound someone may like it so it's fine....)... So I never quite had 5 items making it to my top 5 worst list.
However, there was one product impressionable enough which did made it to my poo list. And it's the ODAC+amp.
Grainy, digital glare, harsh. Mediocre sounding in all aspects. Not small enough to be portable, not big enough to be powerful.
Just gonna stop here as I have nothing good to say. :P
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Was your ODAC experience really that bad?
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Hi marvey! Yes. poo
On a gentler note - Could just be me, but I just didn't like it at all when paired with my ex-Sennheiser HD650. Tested a few affordable DACs I could get my hands on that one day I was freed to shop around (Fostex, ODAC, Centrance, some lower cost Govibe stuff.. etc). Was looking for something portable to bring along one of my business trips to Europe.
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No no. That's fine. Carry on. My experiences with the ODAC varied dramatically from laptop to big PC. Totally believable.
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Red Wine Audio Isabellina (Audeze Edition)-WTF is this crap? Imagine a syrupy and smeared Leben being run through another broken Leben as a preamp.
(http://assets.redwineaudio.com/images/products/heros/audeze3.jpg)
Antelope Audio Rubicon- 'Con' being the operative word. Think Benchmark DAC-1 but waaaaay more expensive ($25,000 Euros). Only listenable via upsampling. I'd say the price is worse than the sound. The ODAC and Geek Out get you closer to the actual music on your recording.
(http://www.electronichouse.com/images/uploads/article_large/Antelope-Rubicon-large.jpg)
Ultrasone velour pads (Pro 750)-If you ever wanted to know what earpads made of fiberglass insulation would feel like.
(http://multivu.prnewswire.com/mnr/owenscorning/35579/images/35579-hi-OCMNRphoto2.jpg)
AKG K812-The most deafening treble I've ever heard in any headphone. Not remotely close to HD800 technicalities even if it wasn't. Listening below 30dB recommended. Perhaps using 'Mute' would work too.
(http://www.madooma.com/onTEAM/fotos/maxi/91387560746.jpg)
Magnepans+Bryston-The acoustic version of braille. You're better off using your car stereo.
Already mentioned:
Mytek/Teac-distinction without a difference in treble
JHA 16/Roxanne-Bass!!/Why? WTH is this sound about?
Shure 1440/1840-Distortion monsters without peer
Oppo PM1 (original)-If live music sounds like this, then the orchestra is playing with AM/FM radios.
Leben-Can go from 15W-40 to 10W-30 if that's your thing.
Meridian Exploder-Hah! How stupid do you think we are?
Denon D7100 (original)-Beats meets You've been Punk'd
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How are the K812 earpads though? They look real comfy! Any consolation? HA HA HA HA HA
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How are the K812 earpads though? They look real comfy! Any consolation? HA HA HA HA HA
I like the look and build. Being half Austrian I've been looking for a good sounding AKG Made in Austria. This thing was aural rape.
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Red Wine Audio Isabellina (Audeze Edition)-WTF is this crap? Imagine a syrupy and smeared Leben being run through another broken Leben as a preamp.
Antelope Audio Rubicon- 'Con' being the operative word. Think Benchmark DAC-1 but waaaaay more expensive ($25,000 Euros). Only listenable via upsampling. I'd say the price is worse than the sound. The ODAC and Geek Out get you closer to the actual music on your recording.
Not surprised by either in the slightest. Do not get RWA hype. I've never heard that Antelope, but I have heard one of the Zodiacs with and without the VOLTIKUS (seriously?) power supply. Massively overpriced for the very little that it delivers. Borefest sound with a sterile aftertaste.
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Molex earbuds, shit buy for me :(
E06 broke it within a week, shitty amp
PS1000
Govibe line
Fitear 334, yes, obvious coherence problems and slowness makes it impossible to ignore for me.
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My list:
1. My first HP - the Beats Solo..nuff said before
2. My second HP -- the Beats Pro...talk about boomy
3. My third HP - the Grado 325i---more than enough has been said about this. Pins and needles is a very apt description. Its had about 10 hours worth of use over 2 years
4. My first IEM - the RHA MA 600 (or 500)i --could never get comfortable with the fit..one of the reasons I quickly gave up on IEMs
5. The Burson Soloist -- Fell for the HF hype and got one...talk about a lazy amp...could never get into the music
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How did we make it 5 pages without the Edition 10 being mentioned? Considering the hype this thing had and the astronomical price, it will never be topped in terms of disappointment.
Any IEM made by Alclair. I have NO IDEA how anyone can like these. They are trash.
oBravo AMT (top model) - Heavy, hot, and sound that rivals Edition 10, but at a cheaper price, only $2000, what a deal!
Noble 8 (demo custom version) - If Mytek-GS-X-HD800 had a baby, this would be it. I wonder if they are actually tuned for +25dB in the treble.
Meridian $20k CDP > Apex Pinnacle $10k amp > Audeze LCD-3 $2k phones + ALO chainmail $1k cable = single vocalist coming from 10 and 2 o'clock with NOTHING in the middle. This setup was literally the worst thing I've ever heard in audio.
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Hmmm... between the headphones I've owned, the Audio Technica ATH-W10VTG. Great looking headphones, but they are by far the funkiest sounding headphones I've owned.
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Gots to be the NWAVG's JesusAmp. Bad sound, but good experience.
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Its not THAT bad, at least not till the price skyrocketed to its current retail. It was cheap and good at the time it was released.
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Sure, it isn't THAT bad - actually it's better than most single opamp Cmoys. The legend around it was its main problem. Sold it to a friend of mine, who actually liked the sound through some Beyer cans.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/t31.0-8/134718_454111141308359_1042410552_o.jpg)
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I can only think of two off the top of my head that I felt were utterly wretched.
The original Beats Solo
- sucks like a two dolla tranny that's all fanny and nothin' else
Grado HF-1
- dear sweet jebus these make the 325 tame by comparison
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Top of my list has to be the original Beats Studio. Compared it to an M50 and K271--the Beats was utter, utter rubbish. Muddy.
Other bad pieces of gear:
2. Marshall Major -- muddy
3. Denon D2000 -- sibilant on every track
4. Oppo PM1 -- not so much 'bad' as 'disappointing', after all the hype and even some pyrates saying they liked it. Dunno, felt completely uninvolved listening to it.
5. Shure SE425 -- mids were sucked out and artificial
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Sure, it isn't THAT bad - actually it's better than most single opamp Cmoys. The legend around it was its main problem. Sold it to a friend of mine, who actually liked the sound through some Beyer cans.
Definitely the legend around it that's the problem. When I had my O2, I liked it. I was able to enjoy it because:
1. I understood that it was an entry-level semi-portable amplifier;
2. It sounded better than a FiiO E11 or the amp section of an Audioengine D1.
I wasn't exposed to the rabid, Heaven's Gate-like fanaticism surrounding the O2 until after I had already *heard* how much better other better amplifiers sounded. As a result I knew that all of the "audibly transparent" talk was a bunch of nonsense. Add that to the very low expectations created by other entry level products available at the time, and it means I can look back with a little nostalgic fondness for the Harsh Sounding Amp That Could.
My own expectation-based pick: fuck the Sennheiser Momentum. I was so excited about that headphone because of its sexy looks and great materials...and when I put it on I was like, "Where's the treble? Do these things just *stop* at 7k? How are the mids that far back?" My ears even fit inside the pads, albeit with no room to breathe. I know rationally that the Momentum isn't that bad of a headphone. It's certainly not one of the worst headphones that I've ever heard. But the lizard brain still loathes what it loathes. >:D
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Expectation wise the Momentum really falls behind the M50X in every way. I almost forgot about the ED10, it basically was a clip fest when I listened to one, it was on my head for 3 seconds? That was with the Phonitor, totally forgot till you mentioned it, bad memories.
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This is a toughie. I've had some pretty bad experiences. This will be a mix of just bad and really terribly missed expectations:
PHA-1 - My unit that Marv and CT hated :) . I asked for a specific DAC from a buddy coming back from Japan and he was convinced by the shop owner to buy this instead...
Beats Solo 1 - First time I heard them I started laughing out loud at my buddy who had purchased them.
Leben CS300 xs - Probably the worst purchase I've made in my life. It's like someone poured Karo syrup on my sound
Goldenear Triton 2 - My buddy's father co-founded the company with Sandy Gross and offered me dealer pricing. I was so excited until I went to audition them and shut my mouth. They were worse than Energy RC-70s paired with a shitty Klipsch sub for both HT and music. This was also when I got to demo a pair of Philharmonic 3s and (secretly) fell in love with Dennis Murphy. The contrast between the two was pretty stark.
Dying LCD3 - when my pair was on it's last legs it made all music sound like it was being reproduced by a donkey's rear end.
BONUS:
Senn HD700 - Having owned the 580, 600, 650, and 800 at various times, I figured the 700 would be right up my alley. I figured wrong.
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Worst piece of gear factoring in price/reputation was this:
(http://jlvalin.zenfolio.com/img/s4/v68/p1471245470-3.jpg)
Albert von Schweikert’s $140k seven-driver, ribbon/cone hybrid VR100 XS, paired with two of Albert’s Shockwave subwoofers and bi-amped by Kronzilla tubes on top and Channel Islands Class D on the subs TAS considered them best in show contenders. They punctured my eardrums at like 70dB
(http://en.devialet.com/assets/a-systems/devialet-120-slide.jpg)
Worst component I've ever owned in my system was a Devialet 120. Flat when omitting, shrill beyond anything I've heard. (especially when paired with ceramic drivers.) Imagine all the GS-X's perceived flaws magnified 5x.
(http://uncrate.com/p/2013/02/meridian-explorer-xl.jpg)
Original meridian explorer suffered from the opposite kind of issue. Mushy sound, wooly bass, it was like listening to music submerged in a vat of jello.
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3334/3190678622_68e7a1575b.jpg)
Most disappointing headphone/amp combo was a pair of HE60's I bought from Spritzer that he did some kind of dustcover mod and retermination on. I'm not incriminating the headphone itself as it was probably the mods that rendered the highs piercing and shrill and the rest of the sound very anemic, save for the dynamic-like punch. Sold both headphones and amp to blue, even though he knew what I thought of them. He sold them both too.
(http://www.musik-produktiv.co.uk/pic-010061119_03xxl/ultrasone-pro-900_03xxl.jpg)
Ultrasone Pro 900. It was a while back and its almost beating a dead horse at this point, but man were these bad. No cyclical love/hate cycle can change this headphone from feeling like an anechoic chamber that slowly sucks your ability to hear into the walls while you listen to alternately dead and shrill EDM as that's the only kind of music anyone has ever claimed these can sound passable with.
I think anything that uses as many drivers as those speakers probably will mostly sound like shit. I tend to find simple 2-way/3-way designs sound much better in my experience.
Anyhoo, only thing on my mind so far is....
Akg 240 studio- probably worst of the 240 series. Overly warm, too much midbadss, veil warm midrange, treble wasn't too dark but the peircing was highly masked by it's bloated midbass.
Beyer dt48a- was so excited to hear these since I loved older studio headphones but...was extremely disappointed. Very dark, clear yet very shelved/scooped midrange and bass response was like gone from 500hz downward. Never recommend paying a premium price they usually go for. Not worth it
Pioneer sx1250 - while these legendary recievers are pretty to look at and very well built, my experience with one is they're very shrill sounding and can be grainy. I did not like it and for the premium big bucks they went for and still go today is not worth it. Spend your money on good pair of separates instead.
If I think of more I list them but that's for now.
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Goldenear Triton 2 - My buddy's father co-founded the company with Sandy Gross and offered me dealer pricing. I was so excited until I went to audition them and shut my mouth. They were worse than Energy RC-70s paired with a shitty Klipsch sub for both HT and music.
Thank you!!!! What is it with Sandy Gross' companies and slobbering audio press? Why do his lousy speakers get them drooling like a $100K Magico? How is it that they are continually allowed to print bold faced lies in terms of FR? The hype train that Def Tech used to get when Gross was in charge and now GE gets is unbelievable.
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One I forgot about when making my original list of five:
Beyer T50p. A really strange listening experience. Focus on the bass, the bass is really good for a small, closed on-ear. Focus on the midrange, midrange is good. Focus on the treble, treble is really good. Zoom out and listen to music ... What in heaven's name is going on here? Completely incoherent. Teeny and unstable soundstage. Big orchestral and choral works are smeared and anything that's not right in your face (e.g., the harpsichord in the first movement of Brandenburg 5) is MIA.
A lot of these issues were addressed in the T51p, but ... wow.
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I'll update this list as I/if I think of more items either to add or replace existing items. Do note that my experience with truly terrible or disappointing gear likely isn't as exhaustive as what others have experienced.
1. Sennheiser Momentum "Over-Ear" - Probably the weirdest headphone I've ever tried. Too large for on-ear, too small for over-ear. Maybe it would sound OK if it fit one way or the other and not somewhere in-between, but I just thought it sounded off. Very strange. Just could not make sense of it one way or the other.
2. Sony MDR-1R - Comfortable and look nice, sure, but the pair I received sounded like garbage out of the box. Super phat bass, but yet still lacked extension, large upper-mid bump followed by a large treble recession and upper-treble bump. Something like that. It sounds a lot better with mods, but I couldn't even stand them stock.
3. FA-003/HM5 - The particular HM5 pair I received just sounded weird and not good to my ears. Weird bass, harsh treble, very strange soundstage and overall presentation. Maybe I got a particular bad one, because I know these have generally been well-received. Even after extensive mods I could not get these sounding great. I was fairly disappointed. I gave them to a friend once I got them to a slightly better state (IMO).
4. SoundMAGIC HP100 - I got this under HF impressions that it was a relatively neutral, fairly budget headphone (already made a mistake there). WRONG on the neutral part. Phat, gross bass, recessed-mids and/or low-treble, uneven, artificial treble (but at least it wasn't too harsh sounding, I guess?). In fact, I was so disappointed with this, that I immediately returned it to Amazon and was compelled to write a review for it. I had a commenter claim I was wrong and linked to a measurement graph...which actually proved my point, but the guy just couldn't be bothered to read the scale of the graph.
5. Original attempt at modding the Monoprice 8323 - This is one of those situations where I got so wrapped up in modding something that my ears started to adjust to the bad sound. Made the mistake of not doing enough side-by-side comparisons. Once I got it back after Marv measured it, it just did not sound right. I felt pretty stupid. Unfortunate because the 8323 can actually sound good, I just modded it poorly (accidentally plugged the vent holes in the cups, main problem). Lesson learned!
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BONUS:
Senn HD700 - Having owned the 580, 600, 650, and 800 at various times, I figured the 700 would be right up my alley. I figured wrong.
What did you think of the comfort?
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What did you think of the comfort?
its almost HD800 levels of comfy
until you play music through it that is
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If they nailed the HD600 sound in the HD700 form factor they could charge $500-700 for them. Super comfy.
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If they nailed the HD600 sound in the HD700 form factor they could charge $500-700 for them. Super comfy.
Agreed!
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If they nailed the HD600 sound in the HD700 form factor they could charge $500-700 for them. Super comfy.
Exactly. My buddy in Bangalore bought the 700 (as you know its expensive here) and offered it for a listen. After 10 minutes, I gave it back to him with an exaggerated "Nice' (did not have the heart to tell him anything else). In turn I gave him my 800. The guy was speechless.
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I rather enjoyed GS1000 and PS1000, albeit with mods (TP over drivers) to tame treble. GS1000 was nice for its flat mids.
Thats whats weird, they are obviously inaccurate to my ears, but they are... fun I guess? They make me happy when I listen to them, so I guess that's a good thing.
Edit: I guess they provide a nice counterpoint to the HD800, which I primarily listen to.
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5 worst mostly iem edition:
1. JH Audio Roxanne
Jerry Harvey once again took pre-order $$$ to try and finalize a product that wasn't ready for sale. Of course it took months and months for him to figure out how to make a CF shell and every cable he sent out broke (and they smelled). He blamed the customers for that, putting out a video showing people how not to break their cables (they broke anyway). Hey, now it's all fixed so the cables only break after a while, not immediately (not kidding, all the cables on the JH Roxanne will fail if the bass is adjusted a certain number of times, around a 100).
They don't measure up, sound-wise, to his jh13fp. As another CIEM maker told me, "It's like people buy Jerry's products not for the sound, but just to be part of something."
2. The Tralucent Ref1
Gigantic, unwieldly shells with terrible ergonomics plus a bloated bass, mediocre mids and hype. Also, they were breaking left and right. Whee! They are terrible at $1600. Someone asked me if I'd buy them at $800. No, no I wouldn't.
3. The Tralucent Uber cable.
The shittiest cable ever made. Stiff stiff stiff, thick, and don't bend it too much (it breaks!). Completely unusable and totally overhyped by really dumb people. A clumsy, hyper overpriced piece of poo
4. The Astrotec AX-60
Mediocrity in the form of an iem.
5. The Askell & Kerns 120ii and 240
$1700 and $2400 daps that need an amp. WTF is wrong with stupid fanboys who are like "oh, yeah, spending an extra $500 for an aftermarket amp upgrade totally makes sense, yeah!" There is nothing in the sound that justifies the price and for these to need an amp is ridiculous. They sound okay and I like how the volume knob is like a game, will turning it in one direction turn the sound down? Up? Up, then down, then down, then way up? NOBODY KNOWS! Seriously, fuck you A&K.
Honorable Mention: Whatever Woo Audio did to that Abyss I heard at an audio meet last year. Amped by their monobloc, it sounded terrible, voices sounded artificial, it was awful sounding. I heard the Abyss again this year (Woo audio again, maybe same Abyss and they had it serviced?) and it was much better, although the set up only allowed you to hear 5 tracks of some jazz singer.
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5. The Askell & Kerns 120ii and 240
$1700 and $2400 daps that need an amp. WTF is wrong with stupid fanboys who are like "oh, yeah, spending an extra $500 for an aftermarket amp upgrade totally makes sense, yeah!" There is nothing in the sound that justifies the price and for these to need an amp is ridiculous. They sound okay and I like how the volume knob is like a game, will turning it in one direction turn the sound down? Up? Up, then down, then down, then way up? NOBODY KNOWS! Seriously, fuck you A&K.
Thank goodness. I thought I was the only person who didn't get the hype on these DAPs. Tried them in a shop and just...I dunno, I didn't think it sounded special at all.
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Whatever Woo Audio did to that Abyss I heard at an audio meet last year. Amped by their monobloc, it sounded terrible, voices sounded artificial, it was awful sounding.
You're not the only one who has experienced this. There's some funny business going on with that rig. Either Marv's modded Abyss is that much better than stock, or it's just a shit match with that amp
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Headphones
1. Sony MDR1R-BT: Large bass hump and a treble spike with deep nulls results in a distinctly disjointed sound, as if three separate drivers with very poor crossovers were playing at the same time. Vocals are also pushed back a bit and generally hollow. It's wireless, comes with a mic and is very comfy though. Worth about half the price.
2. FA003/HM5: I really don't like this headphone. The sound is sterile and cold, with an upper mid emphasis. It might have been tuned to sound like a studio monitor, but it's an absolute failure at sounding musical. A lot of people seem to like it so many I got an oddity. Switching pads didn't help either.
3. Beyer T5P: How does this cost more than 1k? Very uneven sounding especially in the treble.
4. Grado 325i: Stop stabbing my ears with your treble spikes. This is the only headphone I'd deem unlistenable.
5. Oppo PM1: Muddy, dull and overly warm. Overpriced. Good build quality though.
IEM
1. ATH-CKM99: 325i in IEM form but with boomy bass. I felt bad for the person I sold it to.
2. JVC FXT90: Same as above but with more forward vocals and less stabby treble. Still peaky though.
3. ASG 1.2: Have you ever heard music being performed in a cave?
4. UE900 rev. 2: Sounds worse than previous version in all aspects, better build quality. Clarity and detail beaten by IEMs half its price.
5. FAD Piano Forte IX: It sounds very weird and totally not my type, others might appreciate it though. I also found it to be extremely uncomfortable.
(will be editing this post to add reasoning)
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You're not the only one who has experienced this. There's some funny business going on with that rig. Either Marv's modded Abyss is that much better than stock, or it's just a shit match with that amp
say what now? modded?
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It's the Woo amp.
I use the Abyss (stock) with the Liquid Gold, and I think it's on level with (if not better than in some areas) the SR-009. One of the best headphones ever made.
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I can only think of two off the top of my head, I know there must be others, but these two really stick out
the DarkStar from RSA, what a giant piece of poo that was...it made basically every headphone i plugged into it sound like garbage, made me hate the HE-6s quite a bit the first time I ever heard them, which certainly isn't how I feel now that I have heard them on decent amps.
Any headphone from Grado(newer ones), the RS1s especially though considering their cost. I felt like half the music was missing due to the absurd FR
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Interesting all the distaste for Grado in this thread. Trust me, I understand, but the RS-1 was the first "high end" can I heard, the first time I've experienced midrange like that. Brought me to the real understanding that the midrange is where music lives. Having said that, I have bought and subsequently sold the RS1 in various iterations five times, so its never managed to stick around in my rig.
Off topic but anyone reading this actually like any Grado?
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I loved the Grado HP1000 and my modded PS-1 with HP-1000 drivers.
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Interesting all the distaste for Grado in this thread. Trust me, I understand, but the RS-1 was the first "high end" can I heard, the first time I've experienced midrange like that. Brought me to the real understanding that the midrange is where music lives. Having said that, I have bought and subsequently sold the RS1 in various iterations five times, so its never managed to stick around in my rig.
Off topic but anyone reading this actually like any Grado?
I've heard Grado headphones that I can appreciate, but none that I would ever want as a daily, go-to headphone.
That said, the SR80i was my entry into this hobby, so kudos to them for having something respectable at a low price.
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I also started this hobby with the SR80. At the time, I'd never heard any better so I thought it was fantastic. Sorta like how the new kids these days go from earbuds to Beats and think it's the bee's knees.
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Off topic but anyone reading this actually like any Grado?
Joe Grado obviously.
John Grados: SR80/225, RS1. GS1k can work for chamber music. Haven't heard PS1k yet; FR looks like GS drivers in metal housing. Not much difference between the originals and the i series. I still have a woodied modded SR80i lying round for when I'm moody.
No Jonathan Grado e series so far. :gross:
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Its been so long since I've heard an HP1000, I did love it when I owned it. But I was so terrified of it breaking, with the only dubious avenue of repair being sending it in to Joe, I ended up selling it.
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I like the RS-2 with some pad tweaks. Everyone seems to forget about that one.
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Kinda just listing the first things that come to mind...
Klipsch Mode M40's: These are dual driver headphones where the tweeter is extremely sibilant and the bass driver is extremely slow and veiled sounding.
Burson HA160D: I've made posts along the lines of "eh, it's not that bad" before and I might still stand by that, but it's completely unremarkable at its price and old hype level.
Wyred4Sound DAC-2: Initially I couldn't hear too great a difference between it and the DAC inside the HA160D (which is pretty troubling given the price difference), but then I used an external USB->SPDIF and it got significantly better, though still not that great, really. I don't understand why a $1,500 DAC would have an awful (and buggy) USB module powered off the computer's bus.
HD700: Glaring at times, dull otherwise iirc. I listened to a couple of Talking Heads tracks with them at a meet and really didn't enjoy them at all. Maverick Ronin played some animu music through them and felt more positively about them afterward, though, so maybe I was just listening to the wrong genre.
Grado GR10's: I've referred to them as "interesting" before and still stand by that, but I don't regret selling them one bit. They sound like you have a bad insert even when you get a good one, which was difficult to do with the stock tips for me. Or maybe I never actually achieved a good insert? The crazy FR graphs of it I've seen here and elsewhere make me think I heard them at their best, though.
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Even older John Gradoes weren't that great.
Only John/Joseph Grado headphones worth for money are entry models (SR-60, 80) and PS-500. Rest of them are not-so-decent to absolute trash compared to other companies' models. PS-1 is good if you can get it, but it is way too boomy. Joe Grado headphones with HP1000 drivers (HP-1, 2, 3 and very early SR and RS series) are the best.
That said, everyone should pay some attention to Alessandro flavors. While sound a bit more boring, the sound itself is quite balanced for extended listening unlike normal Grado headphones.
So far here are my Grado recommendation after I heard pretty much every single Grado made in existence except HF-1 and that mythical wireless one (it became the base for PS-1 as far as I know)
SR-60
PS-500
Any Grado with HP1000
Alessandro series
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Interesting all the distaste for Grado in this thread. Trust me, I understand, but the RS-1 was the first "high end" can I heard, the first time I've experienced midrange like that. Brought me to the real understanding that the midrange is where music lives. Having said that, I have bought and subsequently sold the RS1 in various iterations five times, so its never managed to stick around in my rig.
Off topic but anyone reading this actually like any Grado?
I have a cherished HP1000 I am never selling. Alessandro MS-1 was one of my first entry level phones, liked it for the $$.
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I keep looking for reasons to re-purchase the Alessandro MS-1. That $99 phone/experience is the reason I am on these forums. Maybe better as a memory?
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CEE TEE: probably.
Nostalgia is unassailable--might as well keep it that way.
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I still keep my SR-80 around. In that price range, it's hard to beat. Tbh, I didn't feel the PS500 was enough of an upgrade to be worth the price when I tried them.
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The Joe Grado HP1000 is one of my all time favorite dynamics. It has a delicate quality only seen in some high end IEMs curiously enough, yet it still has the fuller sound of open headphones. With some mods they can be super awesome. Even unmodded however I'd take them over many other new flagships today.
The John Grado PS1000 gets some flack, but I think it's pretty good when paired with the right amp (like the ZDSE). I'd take it over a T1. Really prefer the older style cups to the polished chrome "rims" they have now however.
The John Grado PS-1 is more or less on the same level as the PS1000. Does some things better, some things worse.
The PS500 is a fun headphone.
Vintage RS-1 and SR320 are surprisingly smooth sounding.
Can't stand most other contemporary John Grados however.
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I like the RS-2 with some pad tweaks. Everyone seems to forget about that one.
Had this one and enjoyed it a bit but not enough to keep it. Is the RS2 very different from the RS2i ?
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For me the Grado SR-125i has been a terrible experience ... needles in my ears ...and the Antique Sound Lab HB-1 well ... :vomit:
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It's pretty hilarious that a "five worst pieces of audio gear you've ever heard" has become a Grado discussion thread. :-\
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My top 5 is simple.
- Beats Solo HD: first version years back, literally shit sound.
- Sennheiser HD265: almost Beats Solo HD terrible.
- Most laptop speakers.
- Beyerdynamic DT48S: the sound was completely unpleasant.
- Sony MDR V6: gave me headaches, just no.
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For me the Grado SR-125i has been a terrible experience ... needles in my ears ...and the Antique Sound Lab HB-1 well ... :vomit:
Does this "needles" feeling due to a potential lack of fit on the ears? I find that when I push the 325i ear cups forcibly against my ears, the bass is there when called for. Shucks, maybe I just need to bend the headband a little more.
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I like the RS-2 with some pad tweaks. Everyone seems to forget about that one.
I was perfectly happy with the RS-2 for about 18 months. Then i heard the HD 800. I got a surprising good amount of $ when i sold the RS-2. I think they are the unsung hero of the Grado line.
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It's pretty hilarious that a "five worst pieces of audio gear you've ever heard" has become a Grado discussion thread. :-\
No doubt... and if Grados are the WORST thing you've heard, you've been very lucky!!
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The worst sounding "audiophile" headphone ever IMO is the Ultrasone PRO 900 / 990.
The RS-1 may well be the most overrated however.
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It's pretty hilarious that a "five worst pieces of audio gear you've ever heard" has become a Grado discussion thread. :-\
I saw it as more or less inevitable :P
Like sure there's worse things out there, like random shitty in ears off the rack at Walmart or target, but as far as things that are considered worthy of audiophiles the most consistently bad brand has been grado for me. I think I've even heard more ultrasones I'd be willin my to live with than grados
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The worst sounding "audiophile" headphone ever IMO is the Ultrasone PRO 900 / 990.
I think I agree. The Ed. 9 was terrible, but at least it had serious SPL in the lower frequencies and high comfort, even if it got literally everything else wrong. The 900 is awful. I was hoping it would at least be a "fun" EDM phone, but the piercing highs pretty much ruin it for that purpose, and the bass isn't even that great.
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I think Grados get by on marketing than anything else. They are pushed by a lot of the hifi shops I've been to and they are ALWAYS sold there. I could be off base, but I think a lot of brick and mortar stores don't think too highly of headphone listening (vs speakers) and just stock the Grados to cover themselves for having a stock of headphones. Then when you talk to MOST (heavy emphasis on MOST for the Grado fans here) serious headphone fans, you find out Grados don't cut the mustard for a lot of people.
The SR-80 is a great entry level headphone to bigger and better things. Very few people have bad things to say about these.
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My friend's RS2i was relatively uninsulting to my ears ~2 years ago
I also thought his HD600 sounded very similar to my KOSS 4AAA from 1974 so take that with an entire cup of salt
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I think Grados get by on marketing than anything else.
That's very impressive considering they have an advertising budget of $0.
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Regarding the Ultrasone ED9, my first impression a long time ago when I was asked for my opinions, Cambridge CDP to Phonitor, "Is this thing clipping?"
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That's very impressive considering they have an advertising budget of $0.
Yes and no.
Grado recently did a PR thing with their first semi-closed / vented headphones and Bushmills Irish Whisky. They even got Elijah Wood to voice it and make stupid YouTube commercials for it.
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I'll cheat and split this up into to lists:
Crap I haven't owned
1. Audio Technica ATH-W5000 - anorexic sound, oddly unstable imaging
2. Grado GS-1000 - my first purchase was a Grado 125. I liked it and decided to go all out and get the best, which at the time was the RS 1. The RS-1 was marginally better and when the GS-1000 came out I listened to it at a store and became very confused at why someone would make such a thing. I then realized that John doesn't have Joe's ears and is most likely insane.
3. McIntosh RX100 - weird line-arrayish sort of thing with lots of tweeters on top and lots of woofers at the bottom. I was allowed to play a test track, a live recording with clipping and other distortion, to see if the speaker would overaccentuate such things. Oddly it did the opposite -- the whole track was smoothed into a drone, textureless extruded sludge. If Kim Jong Un had been there he'd have asked to have his picture taken with it.
4. MBL Reichstagcrawler, or whatever it's called - I listened to it, I moved around the room a few times and listened again. Yup, it's an omni and yup, it sounds just as mediocre on all sides. Needless to say that between that and the McIntosh abomination I've decided to stick to the point-source concept.
5. Beyerdynamic DT48 - yes, it's already a cliche in this thread. Still, lol, donate it to a museum already.
Crap I've owned
1. Grado RA-1 amp - cheap glued together pointless crap. Would've maybe had a point if it was priced comparably to other cMoys.
2. Shure 535 SE - treble replaced by a quivering sucking abyss, unremarkable over the rest of the frequency range.
3. Sennheiser IE 8 - traded the 535 SE for these, afterwards felt like I'd fallen into an O'Henry short story by way of Kafka.
4. Ultrasone PRO 900 - another ciche, richly deserved. Found them ultra cheap after looking over a bunch of glowing head-fi reviews, decided to give them a go. Listened to them, didn't like them, thought maybe there was something wrong with my ears. Loaned them to a friend for a weekend bus trip, he came back raving about them. Now I'm convinced that there's something wrong with my ears. Saw the measurements, went "aah".
5. Stock Fostex TR20 RP - boring, mushy. Wasn't until I heard modded Fostex till I realized that inhabitants of hf's ortho thread might not have been members of a crazy cult. Or at least that the cult was somewhat rational and had decent membership benefits.
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3. McIntosh RX100 - weird line-arrayish sort of thing with lots of tweeters on top and lots of woofers at the bottom. I was allowed to play a test track, a live recording with clipping and other distortion, to see if the speaker would overaccentuate such things. Oddly it did the opposite -- the whole track was smoothed into a drone, textureless extruded sludge. If Kim Jong Un had been there he'd have asked to have his picture taken with it.
4. MBL Reichstagcrawler, or whatever it's called - I listened to it, I moved around the room a few times and listened again. Yup, it's an omni and yup, it sounds just as mediocre on all sides. Needless to say that between that and the McIntosh abomination I've decided to stick to the point-source concept.
Lesson one on why you should never trust anything a professional audio reviewer says: "Yes, the storied maker of those gorgeously analog amplifiers, known for their glowing power meters, makes speakers and has been doing so for years. Simply put, the XR100 speakers uphold the McIntosh legacy. Reviewer Michael Fremer described the sonic presentation as all Ferrari, producing “sound fields that were astonishingly transparent, tight, vibrant, focused, punchy, dynamic, and most of all, utterly effortless—at any volume I cared to listen at.” I'm not a McIntosh fan in general, but their speakers are complete trash. The fact that the reader has to be informed that "yes, they make speakers too" should be a clue.
It's usually hard to know what an MBL actually sounds like because their demos at audio shows are so loud that you have to run away screaming within a few seconds. Compared to the typical MBL demo, standing next to a jet engine is sweet relief.
I'm not sure the omni concept in itself is fatally flawed, but I think it's better suited for casual listening or entertaining in a party situation than serious listening... which makes you wonder why you would ever spend serious money on an omni.
The XR100 is not a line-source. It's a conventional multi-driver forward radiator with four small woofers. The only significant difference between it and a hundred other floorstanders out there are the midranges. Instead of the typical 4-5.5" cone midrange driver or even a large dome midrange ala ATC, they use 10 2" midranges because reasons. An actual floor to ceiling line-source done by a competent designer can sound REALLY good.
(http://www.genesisloudspeakers.com/images/prod_1p2.jpg)
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The XR100 is not a line-source. It's a conventional multi-driver forward radiator with four small woofers. The only significant difference between it and a hundred other floorstanders out there are the midranges. Instead of the typical 4-5.5" cone midrange driver or even a large dome midrange ala ATC, they use 10 2" midranges because reasons. An actual floor to ceiling line-source done by a competent designer can sound REALLY good.
I liked the Wisdom/B&G planar strips and that curved array from parts express. Checked the McIntosh website and it was actually the 200 I heard at the show. Not entirely sure what the rationale behind the 200 was, other than maybe sheer volume and power handling.
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That's very impressive considering they have an advertising budget of $0.
I think when Goldfish says "marketing" he is referring to "asshat hi-fi shop dealer networks". Grado doesn't advertise per se (except for that Bushmills / Frodo mutual admiration "experiment" MF referrenced), but they got in early (decades ago) and locked down the aforementioned hi-fi dealer networks probably by virtue of their cartridge offerings and Uncle Joe's original work. This July, I went to a "hi-fi shop" to audition an audeze lcd-2 and this is what they had, buried in a corner: every grado, the lcd-2 and the lcd-3. I have never returned.
And not to be completely OT, the "worst gear" I have heard, in no order are:
SE-535: got this on massdrop a few months ago to see what all the fuss is about. turns out its just fuss. the "mids" are a muddied mess of "also the bass"
DT770: this was hyped on HF as an "awesome closed can, rock n' roll, jack of all trades, good enough for studio monitoring, lol!1!" and it was just bassy, mushy, claustrophobic, and made me sad. A step back compared to the dt150 and dt250.
LCD-3: yup. bought it, and after extended audition, even with the FAZOR set to kill, I didn't even "sort of" like it. I understand some like this headphone a lot, but for that price, and the promise that it would blow me away, I was, politely, "overall displeased" with the experience. Probably my biggest let down so far.
Upon review, I guess each of those "worsts" are colored by the hype that led to my acquisition of each item, but that is sort of the point, right?
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So worst:
1) Parts-Express 240-015: Yes, it's a < $2.00 headphone, and yes I only used it for its headband... But this is a true reference for crap. Just about everything that can go wrong with a headphone. See here (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1308.msg34924.html#msg34924).
2) Koss KPH7: A $5 example of how everything cheap from Koss (or most other vendors) does NOT always works out.
3) Perfect 8 Technologies "The Force": Again... $566K of WTFness.
4) Anthony Gallo A'Diva or Nucleus (can't remember which): Disappointing bright piece of expensive mini-shit. IMO, buy the popular Energy Take 5s or the Mirage Nanosats... not perfect either but better and cheaper.
5) GSX-II + HD800: YMMV, may be the cans, may be the amp, may be the source, may be the songs, may be all, but this combo did not work for me. Disclaimer: Not nearly as bad as the rest of the stuff I listed though. On their own and with the right set of equipment, they might be awesome, excepting the price.
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I liked the Wisdom/B&G planar strips and that curved array from parts express. Checked the McIntosh website and it was actually the 200 I heard at the show. Not entirely sure what the rationale behind the 200 was, other than maybe sheer volume and power handling.
Gotcha. Yeah they've been doing line-sources for a long time, with minimal success. You can probably imagine why this particular concept wouldn't work just by looking at it.
(http://www.roger-russell.com/xrt22d.jpg)
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So worst:
1) Parts-Express 240-015: Yes, it's a < $2.00 headphone, and yes I only used it for its headband... But this is a true reference for crap. Just about everything that can go wrong with a headphone. See here (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1308.msg34924.html#msg34924).
I was going to give a nod to this myself. Just think, before someone figured out how to use the headband for mounting Koss drivers, there were actually people who purchased this...to listen to. :shutter:
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Yes and no.
Grado recently did a PR thing with their first semi-closed / vented headphones and Bushmills Irish Whisky. They even got Elijah Wood to voice it and make stupid YouTube commercials for it.
I know, it's ridiculous. Like their Laphroaig Edition, a 125i with green glass earcups and a headband made of cork--when everyone knows the John Grado sound is really a lowland, given its light-body and sharpness. But that's the exception that proves the no advertising rule.
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Sennheiser HD419
put them on and after 3 seconds I wanted to throw them across the store.
Dark, thin, erratic mess
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It's usually hard to know what an MBL actually sounds like because their demos at audio shows are so loud that you have to run away screaming within a few seconds. Compared to the typical MBL demo, standing next to a jet engine is sweet relief.
I've listened to a pair of MBL speakers in their owner's room, with a range of music and at comfortable volumes. I enjoyed the experience. It was probably my only experience of speakers that cost as much as my car did. What can I say? I'm keeping the car. But listening did not cause me any pain.
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I've listened to a pair of MBL speakers in their owner's room, with a range of music and at comfortable volumes. I enjoyed the experience. It was probably my only experience of speakers that cost as much as my car did. What can I say? I'm keeping the car. But listening did not cause me any pain.
Comfortable volume is key. When MBL demos at audio shows they almost always are blasting at rock concert levels, and I don't want to hear ANYONE'S speakers like that. I don't hate the Radialstrahlers, or Duevels or German Physiks for that matter, but I think a properly setup forward radiator or dipolar open baffle will likely produce better results - provided that the listener is in the right listening window. If you're standing up, walking around the room, etc, that's where the omni advantages really come into play.
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Yes, they did a cool trick in that respect.
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My friend's RS2i was relatively uninsulting to my ears ~2 years ago
Yeah, I used to own a pair and felt the same way. I had trouble hearing why they were worth their asking price though, especially since I have/had numerous others around there, if not cheaper, which were more engaging. I agree with MF that they're overrated.
I used to go bike riding with them because they were light, open (for hearing traffic), and looked kind of cool. Then my bike was stolen, however, I didn't buy a new one, and had literally no use for them at all so they were sold. One of my least-missed headphones.
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That's very impressive considering they have an advertising budget of $0.
Yes, but a salesperson's word shows up outside of monetary ways. When the stores you go to stock everything Grado (and little else) and you hear multiple times, "Grados are the best headphone out there", you kind of know something's up. Especially if you're more aware of the more high-end headphone market and how poorly Grados normally compare.
I mentioned this in my other post, but you quoted me out of context. :/
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I picked up a pair of HD700s, brand new, for $550 and I am actually enjoying them at this price point especially for Netflix watching on my tablet. Gonna updat my previous post about them.
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- My old Triangle Comete E loudspeakers. Artificial and ear-piercing trebles, good bass but severe lack of medium to make the joint across the FR
- AKG K271/mk2. Flat, boring, plastic, too big for my small bald head...to be forgotten
- AKG K550. No life, no bass. Brighter sibling of K271, almost as boring.
- Beats Pro. Veiled, muddy, and atrocious build quality
- Sennheiser HD201. Big steaming pile of shit. Really. poo
Ali
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I picked up a pair of HD700s, brand new, for $550 and I am actually enjoying them at this price point especially for Netflix watching on my tablet. Gonna updat my previous post about them.
I'm very curious if Senn has tweaked the formula for the HD700.
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Maybe...OTOH, I know of someone that picked up a new pair recently, and they said it sounded terrible. I've still never heard one, so take that with a grain of salt.
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For my first post... I tell my worst. :gross:
1. Burson HA160 - so overrated...
2. AKG Q701 - tasteless, sterile, unpleasant,dull.
3. Asgard - Magni is far better option for my tastes.
4. Hifiman HM-101 - turned my money on a POS.
5. Sony SA-1000 - Worst HF of all. Complete lack of bass. It's like a tweeter attached to your head.
:ship:
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I'm very curious if Senn has tweaked the formula for the HD700.
FYI, Sennheiser did NOT bring one to CES. That's all I'll say about it...
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Sony XBA A2
POC, and sounds terrible. Design is cab too: The headphone body (fatness/thickness) is so huge such that it hurts and cranks my outer ear "knobs" next to my ear hole. Pains my ear after 5 minutes of insertion.
Junk, CCC-
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Speakers: Sonus Faber Venere series: gorgeous to look at but dull, boomy, lacking in detail, transient response and dynamics.
Amp: Several class D amps, declaring up to a gazillion watts and then fail miserably to produce an effortless sound. Nothing close to real music, lacking in harmonics, texture and flow.
Phono stage: EAR 834P, as bad as it gets from a well known and respected designer. Muddy, poor S/N ratio, poor channel separation. Never met someone who actually kept it for more than a few months
Cartridge: Ortofon 2M line, especially blue and red. Soulless is the word here. Make vinyl sound like crappy CDs
Headphones: Aedle headphones. Designed for hipsters and nothing more.
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Cartridge: Ortofon 2M line, especially blue and red. Soulless is the word here. Make vinyl sound like crappy CDs
First time I've heard this...
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Ι would pick the cheaper Shure 97xE or any Nagaoka, Goldring instead of the 2M red/blue any day of the week. I had all these a few years back and gave them several listening sessions on my descent-good system with proper phono stage and loading.
Thought it can come down to personal taste, i firmly believe that the 2M line is bad and will only fit for those who have a slighlty warm/less detailed/ laid back system as the only thing that works for these carts is detail. If the system is anywhere close at being balanced (even worst if detailed/crisp) the end result is razor sound.
(for the record the sessions result was from better to worst Shure V 15 III-Jico SAS>AT20SLa>Goldring 1012GX>Shure 97xE>Ortofon 2M blue>AT 95E) I conserve the V15III, AT20SLa and Shure97xE though i use my MCs most of the time.
besides that my motto remains de gustibus non est disputandum ..
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Headphones: Aedle headphones. Designed for hipsters and nothing more.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but that opinion is so completely wacky that I have to doubt that you've listened to them.
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Well, I have listened to them. I never comment on something that i have not had a first hand (ear) experience. As you said, everyone is entitled on their opinions, if you think that the Aedles are worth the money and that the sound is on par with other headphones of the same category that's fine by me. I simply think that a pair of headphones like the Aedles fail for several reasons:
A commercial product usually has a more or less predefined cost/ profit % and if the designer decides to throw a big chunk of that money on exterior design, packaging and leather trimming chances are he is taking that money from the drivers quality.
A second issue here is that the cups are designed with aesthetics in mind and i doubt this is the best way to optimize the contours/ wave reflections for pure listening pleasure.
Besides that the headband is quite stiff (though it gets a bit softer with time). Ergonomics are also sacrificed in the altar of "looks".
Gorgeous? maybe yes. VFM soundwise: definitely not.
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The Aedles are an interesting sound some could go for and others not so much. For the money I'd take the Bluetooth and ANC Parrot over an Adele based purely on sonics all day myself.
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Audio-Technica ATH-CKS1000 - bloated, boomy bass, shrill treble
AV123 X-Sub - literally the worst excuse for a subwoofer outside of HTiB. It was cheap, and souded like it.
Jamo S62something Floorstanders - Just anemic, poor imaging, flat sound.
Onkyo TX-SR508 Reveiver - I bought one for my other in-law, worst mistake ever. I wouldn't trust it to amplify a fart. Flat, zero dynamics, totally gutless.
Audio-Technica ATH-A500 - Ugh, so closed it sounds like you are listening to music in a telephone booth.
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I've heard a lot of cheap junk. Too much to list here. But maybe a list of most disappointing gear is more relevant:
Sennheiser HD500 - boomier than the old Beats and they're from Sennheiser? They should know better.
TakeT H2 - boomy bass, splitting highs, and not much in between. Plus the drivers rattle. What a ripoff. The technology is interesting, the implementation is total fail.
Westone UM Pro 50 - I can has not bass? These are like an HD650 in a bad rig. The detail is all there but the tonal balance is so screwed up. They're ok with certain types of music though.
Shure SE535 - Seriously, I don't think I can get a good fit with these no matter how I try, because for me they sound NOTHING like what people describe. The highs are super harsh, metallic, and shrill. The UM3x slaughters these.
Stax SR-404 - ok, these aren't technically bad. But they're so disappointing. The mids are screwed up, the upper mids are overemphasized and the tone is all wrong. Considering that these headphones do so much right, screwing up the most important part puts them on this list.
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I've heard a lot of cheap junk. Too much to list here. But maybe a list of most disappointing gear is more relevant:
Sennheiser HD500 - boomier than the old Beats and they're from Sennheiser? They should know better.
TakeT H2 - boomy bass, splitting highs, and not much in between. Plus the drivers rattle. What a ripoff. The technology is interesting, the implementation is total fail.
Westone UM Pro 50 - I can has not bass? These are like an HD650 in a bad rig. The detail is all there but the tonal balance is so screwed up. They're ok with certain types of music though.
Shure SE535 - Seriously, I don't think I can get a good fit with these no matter how I try, because for me they sound NOTHING like what people describe. The highs are super harsh, metallic, and shrill. The UM3x slaughters these.
Stax SR-404 - ok, these aren't technically bad. But they're so disappointing. The mids are screwed up, the upper mids are overemphasized and the tone is all wrong. Considering that these headphones do so much right, screwing up the most important part puts them on this list.
Sennheiser also made the HD265 to follow up on the HD250 Linear II-series. Thankfully the HD250 Linear II-series is still fondly remembered.
The HD265 was comparable to sonic mud invading you skull through your ears. The HD265 was topped by the Solo HD though. The Solo HD is literally a bass fart creator for idiots.
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Rein Audio X3-DAC - awful implementation of Wolfson WM8741, poor sound, meh everything else and you get it for a 1000 pound less from a Chinese ebayer version.
Perfect Sound D901 - Expensive Chrome Beats Pro, enough said.
Beats Pros - I bought a pair before I got into this and they were so bad I had to find something better and I'm glad I did.
Audio Technicha CKW1000ANV - being a reputable brand for both cans and earphones I never expect anything to bad but these were overpriced, muddy, boring, what as waste or time.
Minerva Mi-Artist CIEMs - with CIEM value drastically improving, you might expect something from these but just don't, keep you wallet away from these.
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Not in any order:
1. Wilson Alexandria IIIs (or IIs); in fact, most Wilsons except the Alexias. I just don't get why so many "audiophiles" flip for Wilsons. They must be too heavily influenced by all those reviews in the slick mags...
2. Anything by Spectral; for something that will drive you out of the room in < five minutes, pair the Spectral with the Wilsons. Ghastly, truly ghastly.
3. ModWright Instruments' LS 36.5 preamp and KWA 150 solid-state amp powering Emerald Physics CS2.3 open-baffle speakers. I heard this at CAS 2010; I still remember how dreadful it was to this day. Amazing that $25,000 of audio gear could sound this bad.
4. Beats orignal headphones
5. Luxman Integrated Amp powering Vivid B1s
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Shure SE535 - Seriously, I don't think I can get a good fit with these no matter how I try, because for me they sound NOTHING like what people describe. The highs are super harsh, metallic, and shrill. The UM3x slaughters these.
How can you condemn an IEM that you can't get a proper fit on?
That just doesn't make sense...
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How can you condemn an IEM that you can't get a proper fit on?
That just doesn't make sense...
I guess you could condemn it for not fitting. :-\
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I guess you could condemn it for not fitting. :-\
Then condemn the ears walk the plank
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I guess you could condemn it for not fitting. :-\
Fair enough, you could. For me, unless there is a fit issue with most users I'd have trouble throwing it out as "worst" evah...
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Fair enough, you could. For me, unless there is a fit issue with most users I'd have trouble throwing it out as "worst" evah...
Fit is important. I've had some IEMs that left me feeling... violated.
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Fit is important. I've had some IEMs that left me feeling... violated.
What's a little ear canal probing compared to pickles in the eye?
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How can you condemn an IEM that you can't get a proper fit on?
That just doesn't make sense...
Let me explain.
Fit is important. If you design an IEM that I can't get a good fit with no matter what I do (and no, I'm not a beginner when it comes to IEMs) I'm going to call you out on it. I'm not going to make excuses and say "well it's probably a good IEM, it's just not for me." I don't have these problems with other brands, why should I give you any slack for yours?
This is, of course, provided that I really can't get a good fit and they don't actually suck, without needing to blame the sound on fit. I also had the same exact issues with the e500. I honestly don't know if it's fit or if they just have harsh treble.
My family runs a small company, and I spend a fair amount of time designing and creating products that customers will use, and there is this one thing I've learned: if you create a product and a customer has a bad time with it, it's almost always YOUR fault. You can't blame customer stupidity, customer variance, or customers not having the correct background to use your product, because in most of those issues, either you didn't explain clearly enough, or your ergonomics suck. You have to account for people not being ideal customers, and you have to make sure that your stuff works as advertised - for everybody. And this is even MORE the case if you make a consumer-oriented product rather than a professional-oriented one.
Besides, isn't the idea of this place that you can recount your experiences honestly, without needing to sugarcoat... right?
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FWIW TrippleFi 10's did not cut the mustard for me also due to fit.
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Okay guys, can we consider the Tralucent Ref1 for worst ever based on the blonormoustm shells inspired by the rounded swells of a pregnant orca.
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Let me explain.
Fit is important. If you design an IEM that I can't get a good fit with no matter what I do (and no, I'm not a beginner when it comes to IEMs) I'm going to call you out on it. I'm not going to make excuses and say "well it's probably a good IEM, it's just not for me." I don't have these problems with other brands, why should I give you any slack for yours?
This is, of course, provided that I really can't get a good fit and they don't actually suck, without needing to blame the sound on fit. I also had the same exact issues with the e500. I honestly don't know if it's fit or if they just have harsh treble.
My family runs a small company, and I spend a fair amount of time designing and creating products that customers will use, and there is this one thing I've learned: if you create a product and a customer has a bad time with it, it's almost always YOUR fault. You can't blame customer stupidity, customer variance, or customers not having the correct background to use your product, because in most of those issues, either you didn't explain clearly enough, or your ergonomics suck. You have to account for people not being ideal customers, and you have to make sure that your stuff works as advertised - for everybody. And this is even MORE the case if you make a consumer-oriented product rather than a professional-oriented one.
Besides, isn't the idea of this place that you can recount your experiences honestly, without needing to sugarcoat... right?
Agreed. Every product on the consumer and industrial market is designed to fit the end user for its purpose. Headphones big and small are no exceptions despite the style choices you sometimes see.
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Seriously, all people have different ears so I'm with shipsupt here. If I can't fit an IEM I say "I can't fit this piece of shit " and I don't comment the sound. That's OK to criticize an iem about the fit. I did it many times because many ( if not all) IEMs fit are problematic for me. Even with my own SE215 I own for a long time , I discovered recently I could Improve the sound with different tips.
But in this case please, don't comment the sound.
Shure SE535 - Seriously, I don't think I can get a good fit with these no matter how I try, because for me they sound NOTHING like what people describe. The highs are super harsh, metallic, and shrill. The UM3x slaughters these.
Here, you say clearly that You didn"t find any good fit but you give a comment on sound and compare to another IEM. That does not make sense IMO.
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Sorrodje... nail on head. Thanks.
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Let me explain.
Fit is important. If you design an IEM that I can't get a good fit with no matter what I do (and no, I'm not a beginner when it comes to IEMs) I'm going to call you out on it. I'm not going to make excuses and say "well it's probably a good IEM, it's just not for me." I don't have these problems with other brands, why should I give you any slack for yours?
This is, of course, provided that I really can't get a good fit and they don't actually suck, without needing to blame the sound on fit. I also had the same exact issues with the e500. I honestly don't know if it's fit or if they just have harsh treble.
My family runs a small company, and I spend a fair amount of time designing and creating products that customers will use, and there is this one thing I've learned: if you create a product and a customer has a bad time with it, it's almost always YOUR fault. You can't blame customer stupidity, customer variance, or customers not having the correct background to use your product, because in most of those issues, either you didn't explain clearly enough, or your ergonomics suck. You have to account for people not being ideal customers, and you have to make sure that your stuff works as advertised - for everybody. And this is even MORE the case if you make a consumer-oriented product rather than a professional-oriented one.
Besides, isn't the idea of this place that you can recount your experiences honestly, without needing to sugarcoat... right?
I see your point, but it must be hard to give a warranty for a good fit with IEM's.
Maybe they should provide a wider range of tips with IEMs in general. I have about 10 pairs of tips, but only one pair fits me, so they don't slide out and loose the seal. Others are shit and don't fit good enough.
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Ask Anax how many universal tips he has!! :-0
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Ask Anax how many universal tips he has!! :-0
At least more than ten fingers plus ten toes combined I assume. Universally fitting tips for IEMs are always a challenge for producers and their global customers.
Is it so difficult to simply standardise some basic tip sizes?
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Like feet.
But then, we'd need a US standard, a UK standard, an EU standard... walk the plank2
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Ask Anax how many universal tips he has!! :-0
At some point fishing gear becomes a necessity.
(http://www.head-fi.org/content/type/61/id/1257296/)
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lol.. this should get you covered.
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Have you had the situation where the same exact tips that give a very good seal on one IEM fail to give a seal on another IEM? Even if the two IEMs are roughly the same shape, same stem diameter, similar driver/ear distance, etc?
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I don't think I have, but there are few types that generally seem to better with my hearing holes vs. others that never work for me.
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Have you had the situation where the same exact tips that give a very good seal on one IEM fail to give a seal on another IEM? Even if the two IEMs are roughly the same shape, same stem diameter, similar driver/ear distance, etc?
IME, the ways the nozzle is angled matters too . For example, Shure and Earsonics IEM have overally the same shape but the nozzle is not similary angled. induced comfort and sound can be slightly different. To have a seal in only a part of the story. To have the perfect fit to enjoy the best of an iem is another one.
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Have you had the situation where the same exact tips that give a very good seal on one IEM fail to give a seal on another IEM? Even if the two IEMs are roughly the same shape, same stem diameter, similar driver/ear distance, etc?
I haven't had that problem yet, but with the Triple Fi 10's it did not matter what tip I used, they did not fit properly. The nozzle was just too big from my ear-holes.
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Have you had the situation where the same exact tips that give a very good seal on one IEM fail to give a seal on another IEM? Even if the two IEMs are roughly the same shape, same stem diameter, similar driver/ear distance, etc?
Usually when this happens the nozzle angles are different.
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2. Shure 535 SE - treble replaced by a quivering sucking abyss, unremarkable over the rest of the frequency range.
*That's* what I remember hearing.
I found they excelled with highly percussive soundtracks, but I remember listening to some Anais Mitchell and really wishing there was just... more. Detail wasn't lost, per se, there was just something wholly un-remarkable about the sound, other than the fact of the isolation being a slight benefit.
I mainly used the Shure SE535's for mixing/monitoring. The mids and highs of anything I did on those, on any system, were always unremarkable/overshadowed by the deep and tight bass end. Which, back in the day, is what I was going for.
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Of the recent stuff mentioned, the Burson amps get my vote.
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Of the recent stuff mentioned, the Burson amps get my vote.
I agree. I got the Soloist some time back and the Mojo after that. The Soloist would put me to sleep. I use the Soloist as a pre-amp now. Marv, is there an issue with the Mojo as a pre-amp that you are aware of? Mine will not work as such when I connect to my Odyssey power amp. Just noise when I switch it on.
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Of the recent stuff mentioned, the Burson amps get my vote.
I was very tempted to buy a Conductor. I was saved by confirmation from that company that [at that time, at least] the USB interface would not work with Linux. Saved by the bell! ...or by the burson!
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Nice picture, Nick. What's the name ?
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Aimee :)
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Worst bit of headphone related gear I have heard was the Furutech ADL GT40 DAC/amp. Coming from an O2/ODAC combo, I found the GT40 dull and boring through my HD650. I disliked it immediately and it never improved. I did enjoy the phono section through headphones and speakers though.
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My biggest disappointments: (sold immediately)
1. O2
2. D7k...guess I had gotten used to planar mags at that point
3. m50-still on the HF greatest gift guide thingy
4. Koss dj100-caused me physical pain with a few minutes
5. Schiit Loki...never could get that damned thing to work.
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My biggest disappointments: (sold immediately)
4. Koss dj100-caused me physical pain with a few minutes
Huh. From the fit or the sound (or both)? Were you using stock pads?
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Worst bit of headphone related gear I have heard was the Furutech ADL GT40 DAC/amp.
I was tempted by one of those. I'm glad I didn't buy it!
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Huh. From the fit or the sound (or both)? Were you using stock pads?
It's been quite a long time ago, but I think stock pads. The physical pain was from the fit. But the sound was almost enough to cause the same type of pain.
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It's been quite a long time ago, but I think stock pads. The physical pain was from the fit. But the sound was almost enough to cause the same type of pain.
The stock pads suck--both fit and sound. That's why everyone replaces them, usually with M50 pads (but SRH1540s are much nicer). The headband is metal and can be bent to fit right.
With those mods + a piece of adhesive felt in front of the drivers, I thought they were amongst the better cheap phones and especially well-suited to vocals. But the steep spike in the upper treble remained bothersome so I didn't keep them. Falls into the "I wouldn't throw her out of bed" category for me.
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I'll make my list more "Five Worst Pieces of Audio Gear I've heard [that were praised elsewhere]"
Headphones: Number 1 worst, Number 5, slightly better.
1. Skullcandy Aviators ( Ew :vomit: )
2. Razer Kraken Forged Edition ( Holy shit, worst expensive headphone I have ever heard, period. Thankfully I didn't pay for mine, I got it through a friend that works for Razer. But damn, it looks good, and the build quality is top notch, better than some $1000 headphones... But seriously, why does it sound like I am listening through a seashell and somehow, everything above 2khz is cut off? )
3. Marshall Monitor ( Terrible, just terrible. Still better than the Razer. Solid build and looks good though )
4. Sony 1R and 1A ( Super comfortable, very relaxed sound. Just not that good )
5. Sennheiser Momentum Over-Ear ( These are over-ear? Yeah right. Light across the frequency response. Meh, I still use it for Skype calls )
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For me, I was surprised by how poor sounding the Hifiman EF-6 was. just not musical at all. I also would second the post from a few pages back on modwright; heard them quite a few times and I do not get it.
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I was tempted by one of those. I'm glad I didn't buy it!
Yeah. I mainly bought it for the phono stage but the DAC/amp section really sucked.
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Sony MDR-SA3000: Hyper cupped presentation. No bass. Shitty power handling.
Bang & Olufsen U70: Irredeemable mess of ortho fart. Compressed. Distorted. Grainy. Ugh.
Audatron SH-608R: You think Grados have problems with resonances? Try this fucker.
Pioneer SE-6: Nothing but hot, syrupy midbass. Seriously, ew.
Audio-Technica ATH-M50 (old version): Shrill, compressed, and unpleasant.
*AKG K812: Only a candidate when factoring price into the equation. Not bad sounding, but nowhere near its price bracket.
*Audio-Technica ATH-6: Electret. This was probably broken; nothing but distortion.
*Fostex TH600: Again, only a candidate when factoring price. Shitty bass, sucked out mids, splashy hissy treble, zero soundstage capabilities.
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1. H
2. D
3. 7
4. 0
5. 0
Ok the HD700 is only one product but its the most disappointing by far. I got them for about 500 on eBay and thought I got a huge deal. They were, sadly, as advertised. Painfully bright as the measurements predict and unlistenable. I like Senn products so to hear their "second-best" headphone be flat out bad was a huge downer. I am very happy with my HD600 and hope to hear news of a proper follow-up. HD 750 anyone?
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1. H
2. D
3. 7
4. 0
5. 0
Ok the HD700 is only one product but its the most disappointing by far. I got them for about 500 on eBay and thought I got a huge deal. They were, sadly, as advertised. Painfully bright as the measurements predict and unlistenable. I like Senn products so to hear their "second-best" headphone be flat out bad was a huge downer. I am very happy with my HD600 and hope to hear news of a proper follow-up. HD 750 anyone?
Try to find a HD250 II Linear, it is a discontinued Sennheiser and one of the best Sennheiser headphones if you want a closed dynamic headphone that can sound very right.
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My experiences:
1. Carver amps - Horrendous, flat, lifeless and bland.
2. Sony MDR-V900 - Pads are too small, the letherette coating on the pads started to chip off 3 months later, and muffled sound
3. Monster Cable interconnects Reference 2 - Bloated bass besides odd sound (no detail) - Kimber PBJ's were major improvement.
4. Carver "Amazing" Loudspeaker - Two bridged carver amps couldn't bring these to life, nor Yamaha M-80 amp (250w/ch). Boston Acoustics bookshelves were better at imaging.
5. Grados (already mentioned)
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Bang & Olufsen U70: Irredeemable mess of ortho fart. Compressed. Distorted. Grainy. Ugh.
Audatron SH-608R: You think Grados have problems with resonances? Try this fucker.
*Audio-Technica ATH-6: Electret. This was probably broken; nothing but distortion.
LOL. The way you described these two, gave me a good laugh. I'd say the ATH-6 has lost most of it's sensitivity due to increased resistance across the "dormant" electret film most likely stored away for too long or in poor conditions, leading to distortion. Got a well taken care of Numark ES-701 that does the same thing, just collapse as soon as sub bass kicks in, had my Sony ECR-400 and 500's do the same shit except I've converted them to full blown stats now.
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Cannot think of 5, but my Sony XBA-40's simply sound wrong. Truly cannot see how Sony can consider selling these.
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I might be struggling here, in part because I rather praise the good than criticise what I consider, er, not good.
Audeze LCD 2 and 3 - I got very excited about these...twice as you can see. HF is partly to blame, but I accept 98% for the rest. I thought that the amp was the problem (all that praise in reviews, so it must be something wrong with the rest of my rig, right?). I tried them with three amps - a Violectric V200 (hey, this amp is not bad at all IMHO), DAC/amp separates from Audio GD's top end and a Lehmann HP amp. I had some very nice pure silver cables made for them, and that did add some sparkle and speed, but...
What can I say? Firstly, they sound muddy across the frequency range (although through the veil I think they had an extended FR). Secondly, they seem to squash dynamics a tad and suck a bit of life out of music, especially rock and dance. Poor PRaT? The bass (lower and upper) is fulsome but without enough zing or definition. The highs are there, but they are veiled without much sparkle. Thirdly, these cans are very uncomfortable - heavy, hot and awkward to wear. Lastly, from memory and it was a while ago, I think the sound staging and channel separation were just average.
Over the years, there have been other pieces of kit that have dissappointed:
Paradigm studio monitors - I bought a model from the basic line, thought the studio series would be better...I was wrong.
Sennheiser HD280 - I bought these to monitor while I edited video. Like listening to 'sound' using two paper cups.
And other gear that I am trying to forget...Spendor loudspeakers, single ended valve power amps, valve pre-amps, multi-channel/surround amps, Rega turntables and so on.
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p:0
Over the last 50 years I've heard a lot of bad, very bad, most of it I have forgotten, because it was bad! I will probably get into trouble for posting here, so forgive me for not mentioning a lot of the obvious.
1. Monster Cable speaker wire, being someone with an electronics background, I was very hard to sell on the idea that speaker cable (given sufficient current capabilities) could possibly make any difference, but a friend lent me his Monster Cable to replace my 14 gauge with the assurance that I would hear a difference, and I was completely blown away by the result. It sounded worse, much worse! The bass was tubby and undefined, and all the detail had vanished. The sound field collapsed entirely. So I was forced to research, and do a lot of listening, and finally come up with my own cables that I use to this day (this was sometime in the early 80's).
2 & 3. The worst "A" rated speakers I ever heard were the Infinity Betas (the high frequencies are so harsh that they give me headaches after only a few minutes listening) until I heard the Watts, which have the same issue only to a greater extreme, actually I have a problem with a lot of High-end gear that mistakes over emphasized high frequencies for greater detail.
4. Most car audio, especially supposed high end rigs, or factory set ups.
5. Having just dipped my toe into this new world of high-end headphones, IEMs, DACs and Amps and this complex market of "objective" vs "subjective" sound, I am sure the worst is yet to come.
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1-5 for me were all various motherboard onboard audio solutions, including several that were "audiophile" oriented. Pro tip - if one of the major selling points is that it uses audiophile caps, then they're overcharging you. A lot. Nothing bothers me like the noise a gaming graphics card makes when it fires up and wrecks havoc on the audio chipset right next to it. Try it sometime, it will make you cry a little.
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I was very hard to sell on the idea that speaker cable (given sufficient current capabilities) could possibly make any difference ...
Yeah, me too. Although without the electronics education to back it up, I am now convinced that 99% of the audiophile cable stuff is absolute bullshit. However, it seems that there was a speaker cable that had electrical characteristics that tended to blow up some amplifiers. That's a pretty blunt way to prove that cables can make a difference! :)p7 .
I think it might have been called cobra, but if I am wrong, and thus maligning some cable that may be innocent of everything other than being overpriced, then I apologize.
No idea what it sounded like before the explosion, but I guess it was pretty bad during ...and afterwards :boom:
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Yeah, me too. Although without the electronics education to back it up, I am now convinced that 99% of the audiophile cable stuff is absolute bullshit. However, it seems that there was a speaker cable that had electrical characteristics that tended to blow up some amplifiers. That's a pretty blunt way to prove that cables can make a difference! :)p7 .
I think it might have been called cobra, but if I am wrong, and thus maligning some cable that may be innocent of everything other than being overpriced, then I apologize.
No idea what it sounded like before the explosion, but I guess it was pretty bad during ...and afterwards :boom:
It's actually pretty easy to blow up a Naim amplifier - don't use Naim NACA5 speaker cable. Naim builds its amps without a zobel network on the output, they think it sounds better that way. The downside is that the amp must see a low capacitance load from the connected speaker cable, or it can become unstable. NACA5 is 16pF per meter, and you must use at least a 3.5 meter run of it, even if your speakers are two feet from the amp. From what I've read you can use a similarly low capacitance cable and probably get away with it, but if you use a high capacitance cable, you'll very likely kill the amp.
I remember reading about a test done between a heavy gauge, zip cord style speaker cable and a higher end type that showed around 0.4dB of difference in response in the mid-treble region, which is nothing to sneeze at. Does that mean you should go out and spend $1K on speaker cables? Perhaps not, but it does suggest that the idea that there is NO difference between ALL speaker cables is untrue.
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Last weekend I had the distinct displeasure of having to play a DJ set using some Behringer Eurolive (model??? I think 1220) active PA speakers. They had possibly the most offensive high mids/treble I have ever heard from a speaker system. Even with heavy handed EQ to drop the treble down it was still piercing, grainy, rough.... just about every negative attribute you could possibly attribute to sound reproduction. Literally headache inducing. I realize the retail on these is sub $200 but man..... I beg anyone considering these as a budget PA to stay the F away and buy some used entry level EV or Yorkville for very slightly more. ANYTHING else really.
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Ugh, I'd rather DJ off a guitar amp than a Behringer. For $250 a pop you can get some dinky Mackie SRM150's that'll sound better. Into $300-ish and you'll find a couple ok Yamaha or Peavey cabs, skip the Mackie Thump and Yorkville Pulse range stuff here, but heck at this price range just rent your gear. At $400 you can get the entry Mackie SRM350, Yamaha DRXsomething, JBL EONsomething which should be your bare minimum, maybe luck out on a sale and get the one step up in the line. I like Yorkville stuff and have used their NX and Elite line, but their prices aren't cheap anymore, and they're not really popular outside of Canada. Once you're into that price range then you've got QSC and the higher range Yammies, JBLs, etc.
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Think it's about time I updated this...
In no particular order:
Audez'e LCD-1: Stock HD800? Nope. Grados? Nuh-uh. These take the cake. The cold, shrill, piercing, shrieking cake. Think TH600, tilted up, plus peaks, without a single iota of warmth or bass emphasis. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/34404748/noDel/BL_F/resc/emote/bleed2.gif)
Sony MDR-SA3000: Lowest fidelity known to man. Grainier than fucking sandpaper. Bass and treble have been lopped off with a machete. Distant, cupped presentation only makes it worse.
Pioneer SE-700: Place a headphone inside a C clamp and attach it to your head, and you have the general idea. No padding, no bass, no treble. Headstage has been smashed into skull with a jackhammer. Less efficient than the HE-6.
Bang & Olufsen U70: Just tried this one again yesterday. Nothing but huge low quality bass. Ortho Beats. Except I'd take the old Studios over these based on sound alone. Factor in comfort, and I'd rather be deaf.
BEYER DT48S 5 ohm: PFFFFF. (http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/BeyerdynamicDT48S5Ohm.pdf) This? Are you fucking kidding me? THIS is the crown jewel of vintage DT48s? I mean, if you listen to nothing but transients, this would be perfect... Oh wait.
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p:0
Over the last 50 years I've heard a lot of bad, very bad, most of it I have forgotten, because it was bad! I will probably get into trouble for posting here, so forgive me for not mentioning a lot of the obvious.
1. Monster Cable speaker wire, being someone with an electronics background, I was very hard to sell on the idea that speaker cable (given sufficient current capabilities) could possibly make any difference, but a friend lent me his Monster Cable to replace my 14 gauge with the assurance that I would hear a difference, and I was completely blown away by the result. It sounded worse, much worse! The bass was tubby and undefined, and all the detail had vanished. The sound field collapsed entirely. So I was forced to research, and do a lot of listening, and finally come up with my own cables that I use to this day (this was sometime in the early 80's).
2 & 3. The worst "A" rated speakers I ever heard were the Infinity Betas (the high frequencies are so harsh that they give me headaches after only a few minutes listening) until I heard the Watts, which have the same issue only to a greater extreme, actually I have a problem with a lot of High-end gear that mistakes over emphasized high frequencies for greater detail.
4. Most car audio, especially supposed high end rigs, or factory set ups.
5. Having just dipped my toe into this new world of high-end headphones, IEMs, DACs and Amps and this complex market of "objective" vs "subjective" sound, I am sure the worst is yet to come.
It took me about 30 seconds to figure out the significance of your username, which is kinda embarrassing for someone who started playing at age 12. Tuned down a whole step, eh? Why would one do that?
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In no particular order...
Grado RS1e. Everything just sounded completely wrong for me.
HD700. I have no idea how Sennheiser put this in between the HD6X0 and HD800. The pair I had had no bass at all.
Westone W60. No soundstage and extremely boomy and unresolving for me. Slow.
Closed EL-8. I felt the upper-midrange and treble were just done completely wrong. It was so distracting that I couldn't have any focus on other spectrum.
Lenovo computer headphone jack: this might be the reason that I started this whole journey.
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Lenovo computer headphone jack: this might be the reason that I started this whole journey.
So it definitely was the Lenovo... when I tried out he Hammo
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So it definitely was the Lenovo... when I tried out he Hammo
After some years when my Lenovo dies I'll do an anatomy on it to see what's wrong. Seriously this is so fucking wrong.
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Think it's about time I updated this...
In no particular order:
Audez'e LCD-1: Stock HD800? Nope. Grados? Nuh-uh. These take the cake. The cold, shrill, piercing, shrieking cake. Think TH600, tilted up, plus peaks, without a single iota of warmth or bass emphasis. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/34404748/noDel/BL_F/resc/emote/bleed2.gif)
Sony MDR-SA3000: Lowest fidelity known to man. Grainier than fucking sandpaper. Bass and treble have been lopped off with a machete. Distant, cupped presentation only makes it worse.
Pioneer SE-700: Place a headphone inside a C clamp and attach it to your head, and you have the general idea. No padding, no bass, no treble. Headstage has been smashed into skull with a jackhammer. Less efficient than the HE-6.
Bang & Olufsen U70: Just tried this one again yesterday. Nothing but huge low quality bass. Ortho Beats. Except I'd take the old Studios over these based on sound alone. Factor in comfort, and I'd rather be deaf.
BEYER DT48S 5 ohm: PFFFFF. (http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/BeyerdynamicDT48S5Ohm.pdf) This? Are you fucking kidding me? THIS is the crown jewel of vintage DT48s? Oh, wait, nevermind. This is the exact headphone you want if you listen to nothing but transients. Makes perfect sense.
I am grateful Tyll measured the DT48S-5. That is a serious WTF result...
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In no particular order:
-Audeze EL-8 open&closed back: See know reason to buy these. Not awful in a particular way but the sound balance just makes me think WTF? (even more than HD700s).
-Burmester speakers with some really bright sounding amp/dac chain: Burmester speakers are known to be having aggressive, bright treble but with the wrong pairing, it felt like someone was scratching my ears with a nail (okay, maybe not that bad but the worst treble I've ever heard).
-Fake Beats headphones that my friends have: No need to explain.
-Sennheiser Momentums: Bass is too loose, bloomy, and uncontrolled. Mids are artificial and almost plasticky. Highs are... where are they? Strange soundstage as well.
-AKG headphones in general (except for the K450) (Sorry to AKG fans out there): Bass: loose, uncontrolled Mids: artificial, plasticky and this made string instruments in particular terrible Highs: also artificial sounding, same thing happened with mids
Soundstage with the K550 and the K701: It's so weird. Never heard anything like it and I don't think I ever will. The soundstage goes sideways. I mean left and right, and that, really deep. It's like having sound come through two long pipes on each sides of your head. Elsewhere than that, it's bad.
And you know what, the K812 isn't all that bad but the price makes me cringe.
-Naim DAC-V1 (I think that's what it's called): simply put, the worst dac/amp I've ever listened to.
Thank you for reading me whining about some bad equipment.
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Bose Acoustimas Speakers - Boom tiss, boom tiss, boom tiss, 'nuf said
Grado SR-125 headphones - I did all sorts of things to get them to sound less grainy and peaky in the treble, only to learn years later, that is their signature.
Etymotic ER4 - I did not dislike them so much for the sound (although I could not get any realistic sounding bass out of them) but for the torturous, painful, deep insertion necessary to get the intended sound.
Kingrex UC192 and power supply - I tried it on a few decent dacs and always came away saying why is it so analytical, bright and thin.
Ack Dac- As much as the idea of NOS appealed to me, I never could get past the crunch in the upper end. I suppose a lot may have been with the regular use of the Grado SR-125s above, but even in the main speaker system it did not deliver. Perhaps it was the early days of tryng to wring greatness out the old Philips chips.
SPL Phonitor - Looks great, sounds relatively boring on a variety of cans, especially given its price. Perhaps it only synergized with a chosen few.
Oops - Looks like I can't kount.
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Confession: I drool over pics of the SPL Phonitor when alone in the night. Never been near one in the flesh, though.
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I might be struggling here, in part because I rather praise the good than criticise what I consider, er, not good.
Audeze LCD 2 and 3 - I got very excited about these...twice as you can see. HF is partly to blame, but I accept 98% for the rest. I thought that the amp was the problem (all that praise in reviews, so it must be something wrong with the rest of my rig, right?). I tried them with three amps - a Violectric V200 (hey, this amp is not bad at all IMHO), DAC/amp separates from Audio GD's top end and a Lehmann HP amp. I had some very nice pure silver cables made for them, and that did add some sparkle and speed, but...
What can I say? Firstly, they sound muddy across the frequency range (although through the veil I think they had an extended FR). Secondly, they seem to squash dynamics a tad and suck a bit of life out of music, especially rock and dance. Poor PRaT? The bass (lower and upper) is fulsome but without enough zing or definition. The highs are there, but they are veiled without much sparkle. Thirdly, these cans are very uncomfortable - heavy, hot and awkward to wear. Lastly, from memory and it was a while ago, I think the sound staging and channel separation were just average.
I'd probably get flamed for such heresy on HF :P
You're not alone in not finding the LCD2/3 not being your cup of tea.
If I have not Hifimans (for orthos) or the HD650 I'd probably would have been happy. But I can't get over the heavy bottom sound no matter how good it is...they just lack the uppers that complete my listening experience.
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HD650. The most boring sounding headphones I've ever heard that are worth discussing. Rolled off bass and treble was as dull as a butterknife. If I never hear them again I'll be okay with that.
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(http://www.mememaker.net/static/images/memes/4200290.jpg)
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HD650. The most boring sounding headphones I've ever heard that are worth discussing. Rolled off bass and treble was as dull as a butterknife. If I never hear them again I'll be okay with that.
Based on my experience I highly doubt if Senn has tweaked the reciepe of HD650 over the years
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HD650. The most boring sounding headphones I've ever heard that are worth discussing. Rolled off bass and treble was as dull as a butterknife. If I never hear them again I'll be okay with that.
Try a DT250-250. Don can recommend that headphone too. If you want true Sennheiser goodness there are some (semi-)vintage ones that have might be interesting.
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My five worst pieces of audio gear (in no particular order):
Grado 225i: piercing treble on some tracks and they never fit quite right over my glasses
iPhone ear buds: crappy plastic in both materials and sound. p:0
1993 era laptop audio jacks - they are responsible for me getting into this crazy hobby in the first place. I picked up a Headroom Total Bithead and the rabbit hole has only gotten deeper since.
Sony headphones - I've never heard one I like. There's something about the treble that make them unlistenable to me.
Does whatever audio equipment allows bands, labels, and mixers to suck the dynamics out of a lot of modern music count?
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While not the five worst in absolute terms, these are some of the gears which I had lots of expectations for but in the end turned out to be overhyped upon actual listening.
Caveat: I personally favor a well-amped HD800 over anything electrostatic. The best electrostatic headphone system I've owned was a BHSE/SR-007 MK1--yes, I prefer SR-007 MK1 to SR-009--but even that got me bored eventually so they had to go.
1. Woo Audio WES
This was undoubtedly the most regrettable purchase during my journey as a headphile. I had it paired with my SR-009 at the time, only to my utter disappointment. Made me wonder if I had been cheated into buying a faulty unit. Later I got to hear another WES at a meet, and it sounded as awful as the one I had. The BHSE which I purchased later was a much better amp in every way, albeit at the same price.
2. Sennheiser Orpheus
I had very high expectations for this system, considering its legendary status among headphiles, so I was very excited when I got to hear it for the first time several years ago at an exhibition. While it wasn't bad per se, I thought to myself 'this is the sound of a so-called legendary system?' I understand some folks who like their music to sound romantic may enjoy the Orpheus a lot more than I did, but it just wasn't for me. The BHSE/SR-007 Mk1 was superior.
3. Ultrasone Edition 5
I was never a fan of Ultrasone. Shamelessly overpriced POS is what I would call them at best. However, seeing the price tag of $5K on the Edition 5, they must sound at least good, right? I mean, price ain't everything but it was even more expensive than the Abyss or SR-009. But heck no, it sounded horrendously metallic as most Ultrasones are and I would take a sub-$500 HD600 or HD650 over it any day.
4. Audeze EL-8, both open and closed
I heard both open and closed back versions, and they all turned out to be POS. Among all Audeze headphones I've owned/listened to, I personally liked my very first Audeze headphone--LCD-2 Rev.2--the best. F'ck me, right?
5. AK240/JH Layla
The AK240/JH Layla, which I believe costs over $4000, was the single most overpriced portable setup I've had the misery of listening to. Call me crazy, but I actually preferred my RWA-modded AK100 driving JH13 Pro FP over this combo for only about half the price.
While a bit off-topic, the following are my personal "leaderboard."
1. HD800 (best with ecp L-2)
2. SR-007 MK1 (best with HeadAmp BHSE)
3. HD600/650 (best with EC ZDSE)
4. JH13 Pro Freqphase
5. Sonic Frontiers SFD-2 MKII, SE+ modded by pcX --> the single best DAC I've heard, bar none. Stomps MSB Analog/Master 7/Metrum Hex/Bricasti M1/PWD2 with unmatched resolving power to detect even the tiniest microdynamic planktons while capturing the macrodynamics that just blew me away. While I'm not sure how it would hold its own when faced against the Yggy, but I'm confident it won't be a slouch.
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1) Ultrasone Headphones: what's the all the fuss about. Never heard anything so expensive sound so crap :spank:
2) Bowers & Wilkins Zeppelin mini. Big name - poo sound
3) Audeze EL-8 - Micheal Mercer likes them! No where near the LCDs - no matter how much some people would like them to sound good.
4) Bose Headphone - all of them. The bloated bass is doing my head in.
5) Devialet Speakers. Oh boy!!! Soul destroying. The worst bit > The people who are demoing them think that the sound fantastic :vomit: :vomit:
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I'm lucky and inexperienced enough not to have had five worst experiences. I have had a worst experience, however: The beyerdynamic T90 Jubilee. Goddamnit. Felt like icepicks fresh from the freezer and wrapped in sandpaper.
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HD650. The most boring sounding headphones I've ever heard that are worth discussing. Rolled off bass and treble was as dull as a butterknife. If I never hear them again I'll be okay with that.
(http://www.mememaker.net/static/images/memes/4200290.jpg)
See, there worse heresies, aren't there?
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5) Devialet Speakers. Oh boy!!! Soul destroying. The worst bit > The people who are demoing them think that the sound fantastic :vomit: :vomit:
That whole brand is criminally overrated.
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HD650. The most boring sounding headphones I've ever heard that are worth discussing. Rolled off bass and treble was as dull as a butterknife. If I never hear them again I'll be okay with that.
(http://media.giphy.com/media/6OPbJtEDdy824/giphy.gif)
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I'm lucky and inexperienced enough not to have had five worst experiences. I have had a worst experience, however: The beyerdynamic T90 Jubilee. Goddamnit. Felt like icepicks fresh from the freezer and wrapped in sandpaper.
Trust me, the worst Beyer is not that one. It's the headphone that Beyer worked on with Mcintosh. Utter rubbish, yet it's 2.5K dollars.
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HD650. The most boring sounding headphones I've ever heard that are worth discussing. Rolled off bass and treble was as dull as a butterknife. If I never hear them again I'll be okay with that.
That's pretty ironic considering http://www.head-fi.org/t/715547/review-oppo-pm-1-oppo-hit-the-nail-on-the-head (http://www.head-fi.org/t/715547/review-oppo-pm-1-oppo-hit-the-nail-on-the-head). :)p13
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Those who think the Grado 325 or others in the SR series are bright clearly haven't heard the hot mess that is the HF-1.
I don't even like Grados, but they make good trade fodder, and at one point I had the 325 and HF-1 at the same time. I was expecting the 325 to be bright from everything that I'd heard, but next to the HF-1 it was like a wet dishrag.
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I'm lucky and inexperienced enough not to have had five worst experiences. I have had a worst experience, however: The beyerdynamic T90 Jubilee. Goddamnit. Felt like icepicks fresh from the freezer and wrapped in sandpaper.
Are you the dude from this video? LOL
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWnsB__VMMQ
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Are you the dude from this video? LOL
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWnsB__VMMQ
Hah! No, and I'm sorry to see the T90 has claimed another victim. He captures the spirit of my reaction to the sound of these headphones. I found the signature deeply unsettling.
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See, there worse heresies, aren't there?
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Even if you don't like the HD650ses, I think there are far worse for a lot more dough.
I think keanex comes from Grados and ATs. As Claritas pointed out however, keanex seems to like the PM-1s, and those remind me a lot more of the HD650s than Grados and ATs.
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Even if you don't like the HD650ses, I think there are far worse for a lot more dough.
I think keanex comes from Grados and ATs. As Claritas pointed out however, keanex seems to like the PM-1s, and those remind me a lot more of the HD650s than Grados and ATs.
Yes, I like bright headphones. The pm1 may not have been treble forward or even prominent, but, based on memory, I never had to overly compensate with the pm1 by turning the volume way too high to hear a desired level of treble the way the I had to with the hd650
I'm actually somewhat flattered that the poster knew that I reviewed the pm1 and linked it. I don't mean that in an egotistical way, I mean it more in a surprised way that my review was even on his radar
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Trust me, the worst Beyer is not that one. It's the headphone that Beyer worked on with Mcintosh. Utter rubbish, yet it's 2.5K dollars.
I'm not familiar with that headphone. I can't imagine paying $2.5K for a beyer.
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Let me start by saying that I can usually find a DAP or DAC/Amp and some genre of music that will make a headphone or IEM tolerable (and I have lots of headphones and IEMs). I even found a good use for the HD700 - watching TV - it's comfort and soundstage and my slightly age-diminished high-frequency hearing combine to make a good combo. I have some albums from the 60's and 70's that sound like the mixing engineer mixed them specifically for Grados. I have even found some music to redeem the W50 a little bit. So I almost always find a good use for all of my stuff.
Some exceptions:
1. Sennheiser hd25-1 ii - Changed to a decent cable and I still can't find anything that will make this headphone click for me.
2. Earsonics SM1 - This thing looks and sounds like something out of a Cracker Jack box. I don't know what I was thinking.
3. Fiio E10 - I must have gotten an early one, but it clicked and popped like a dirty, scratched record, no matter what USB source it was fed from.
4. Early Meelec wood IEMs - sounded like a speaker just under the surface of a mud pit.
5. V-Moda Crossfade LP - never heard a headphone with so much bass and nothing else.
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Yes, I like bright headphones. The pm1 may not have been treble forward or even prominent, but, based on memory, I never had to overly compensate with the pm1 by turning the volume way too high to hear a desired level of treble the way the I had to with the hd650
I'm actually somewhat flattered that the poster knew that I reviewed the pm1 and linked it. I don't mean that in an egotistical way, I mean it more in a surprised way that my review was even on his radar
I tend to agree actually. The HD6xx tends to be better for listening at reference levels, or else things can seem boring. Also upstream components are important but we have other threads to go into that
On the other hand, the Oppos sound like that regardless of level so in that sense they are better suited for low volume listening :P
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I tend to agree actually. The HD6xx tends to be better for listening at reference levels, or else things can seem boring. Also upstream components are important but we have other threads to go into that
On the other hand, the Oppos sound like that regardless of level so in that sense they are better suited for low volume listening :P
What levels are considered reference listening levels?
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I don't think there is one. I listen as close to what I recall live instruments performing at because that's the experience I'm trying to get lost in, and that's the level dynamics tend to perform best at. I can't think of an instrument that can normally be played at less that 70dB. I think most will average around 75-85dB, with some like drum kits going past 100dB depending on how they are played. Lively horns can be very loud as well.
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I don't think there is one. I listen as close to what I recall live instruments performing at because that's the experience I'm trying to get lost in, and that's the level dynamics tend to perform best at. I can't think of an instrument that can normally be played at less that 70dB. I think most will average around 75-85dB, with some like drum kits going past 100dB depending on how they are played. Lively horns can be very loud as well.
Gotcha. People have told me that I tend to listen loud, generally in the 80dB-90dB range according to my sound meter app, it just sounds more lively.
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The pm1 may not have been treble forward or even prominent, but, based on memory, I never had to overly compensate with the pm1 by turning the volume way too high to hear a desired level of treble the way the I had to with the hd650.
That's the main thing I dislike about PM1! ;D No matter what pads I use. I remember listening to a Brahms symphony, and to get the violins right I had to crank it up, which made the lows much too loud.
I've never had that problem with the later production HD650. But we can chalk up the difference between our experiences to a whole list of possibilities; foremost, differences between earlier and later HD650s, different listening volumes, and synergies.
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5 headphones I just don't like:
AKG 701 - They have some weird resonance in the upper mids that just grates on me. Otherwise OK, but I just can't get around this.
ETY ER4 - I am always amazed that some folks see this as some kind of a reference, like "Obviously, it's totally accurate and the IEM all others are judged by". To me, it's dull and sharp simultaneously, undynamic, opaque, bland, uninvolving and must have some kind of distort-o-matic circuit that adds a layer of nasty on top of it all. But at least it has weak bass... I use mine only for spoken word recordings (I kid you not) on the train when I need good isolation.
ANY OF THE OLD STAX/AUDIO TECHNICA ELECTRET PHONES - Back in the day, the Stax electrostatics were about the only really good phones you could get. These were a big step down and in my mind, Stax should have never put their name on them. Something for the punters, I guess.
ANY GRADO THAT WASN'T THE HP-1000 OR THE CHEAP ENTRY LEVEL ONE - These aren't "I can't wait to tell my buddies about them" bad, but with so many other alternatives, why?
SENNHEISER IE-8 - Bassimus Maximus, all over the lower mids. And that's with the adjuster set for minimum bass! Aside; what's the point of an adjuster if it goes from way too much to mega too much? The only way to get them somewhat listenable was to b-a-r-e-l-y poke them into your ears.
Things I probably shouldn't like, but think are decent/OK
BEYER DT-48 (non 5 ohm, please) - You can tell what is wrong with these in about 30 seconds. But if you can make it past that, there are actually some redeeming characteristics here. Fast (probably because there is little bass), clean and clear and positively errrr... OK. Well built and in an odd way, revealing.
FAD 1601 IEM - Again, most folks will give this a quick listen and bow out and I can understand. But there are certain things they did that were unusual in my experience for IEM's. There were plenty of problems, no deep bass, an upper midrange hole, a rolled off treble with a bit of treble peak sting. But, an articulate midrange, great dynamics for IEM's and a spacious soundstage, uniqely so in my experience to now (again, for IEM's). To get this required a particular set of tips (the white ones with the slots) and careful insertion but when everything swung their way, a really compelling listen, in my view.
ZERO TENORE - Positively OK! Cheap and cheerful. They never sound great, but always sound good. If you lose them, oh well... For music on the train, I unplug the ER4's and plug these in (unless I have my AKG 3001 with me).
Things I like despite themselves
SENNHEISER HD-650 - After all this time, shouldn't these just be too long in the tooth to be competitive? But they are. They more than hold their own in todays market, which I suppose makes them a classic.
FAD PANDORA HOPE VI (or whatever they call them) - Oh no, another FAD! Well, I bought them on a hunch and I really enjoy them. I keep waiting for some bizarre disqualifying FAD sonic thing to raise its head, but so far it hasn't happened. It's like they decided "whats the most off the wall thing we could do at this point?" and the answer was make something kinda normal. Of course, there is a mechanical issue, while they are well built, the sliders for the cups tend to be loose, there HAD to be something! I handed them to a reviewer friend who needed a pair of cans and wasn't familiar with them and after he was done he said "What headphones were those? They sounded pretty good." Who'd a thunk it?
Kevin
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AKG 701 - They have some weird resonance in the upper mids that just grates on me. Otherwise OK, but I just can't get around this.
Agreed, this made me think "WTF AKG, what are you doing?"
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5 headphones I just don't like:
ZERO TENORE - Positively OK! Cheap and cheerful. They never sound great, but always sound good. If you lose them, oh well... For music on the train, I unplug the ER4's and plug these in (unless I have my AKG 3001 with me).
I jumped on the hype train and was fairly well impressed the first few times I listened. Then tried with cheap amp and they got very thin and really hard to get volume. I guess I am a more colored response kinda guy. They are gone now and back to my modded cheap HA-FX46 for now
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I had the chance to hear the Audeze EL-8 today at a shop. The rig was an Oppo 105D (B? It was the Blu Ray player, Saber Dac) and an Oppo HA-1 headphone amp. Horrible. No bass, shouty forward mids, no life in the music. They ARE comfortable (my primary issue with Audeze's) but the sound...bleh. One step forward, two or three steps back for Audeze. The Mad Dog slaughters them in every single way. I also tried an HD800 on the amp, since I know its sound signature. Not an amazing pairing by any means, but the "life" was back in the music. So the amp was not the problem.
Edit: These were the closed ones.
Edit 2: Dang, these showed up a lot after checking through this thread. Does anyone besides Mike Mercer actually LIKE these?
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ETY ER4 - I am always amazed that some folks see this as some kind of a reference, like "Obviously, it's totally accurate and the IEM all others are judged by". To me, it's dull and sharp simultaneously, undynamic, opaque, bland, uninvolving and must have some kind of distort-o-matic circuit that adds a layer of nasty on top of it all. But at least it has weak bass... I use mine only for spoken word recordings (I kid you not) on the train when I need good isolation.
Which ER-4? P, S, or B? The ER-4P sounded like you described to me. The S adapter seemed to allow the midrange to open up and the detail, microdynamics, plankton etc all went through the roof. Bass became tighter. Still a bit dull sounding up top somehow though?? I don't really get it. They're fine for at work, I suppose.
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Sonically, the ER-4S's major downfall is it's power handling. The distortion creeps up at higher volumes since it's only a single BA and their diffuse field equalization only sounds good at higher volumes...
facepalm
Not the best combination
Overall, they still make a good reference because of their DF FR though. Not everybody likes that reference, but since these are headphones we're dealing with there are only flavors of reference instead a single standard. I think a dual driver with the same FR as the ER-4S would be pretty awesome though.
I can't leave out the ergonomic issues either. The ER in ER-4 actually stands for Ear Rape, not Etymotic Research
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I can't leave out the ergonomic issues either. The ER in ER-4 actually stands for Ear Rape, not Etymotic Research
Odd. These are the most comfortable IEM I've used to date.
Of course, they're also the third IEM I've ever seriously used, one other being the Monoprice cheapies...
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I've been wondering about this for awhile, but how many flanges in a triflange normally go past the bony canal?
Etys are surprisingly easy for me to insert, they just glide in. The DBA-02 mk1 is comparatively a pain in the ass to do a deep fit. What really ticked me off about the ER-4 was that the cable seemed engineered to be as microphonic as possible.
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Odd. These are the most comfortable IEM I've used to date.
Of course, they're also the third IEM I've ever seriously used, one other being the Monoprice cheapies...
You can find worse ergonomics and comfort than the Etys but they aren't nearly as comfortable as my SE530, PFE 232, or even the $30 MEE A151. I have trouble wearing the ER-4 for more than an hour or so.
The ER-4 goes in so deep, still sticks out a good ways making a nice lever, and then has the cable dangling off the very end transferring every vibration and movement right into the ear canal.
So yeah. Ear rape...
Could be worse though. The Monster Turbines were like sticking a tip onto the end of one of their RCA cables and jamming it into your ear.
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I can't leave out the ergonomic issues either. The ER in ER-4 actually stands for Ear Rape, not Etymotic Research.
Funny, but fixable:
I dislike all the stock tips especially the triflanges, and Comply P series work fine for me.
Wearing the cable behind one's ears completely eliminates cable-born noise; using the shirt clip does a pretty decent job, but it's not perfect.
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Wearing the cable behind one's ears completely eliminates cable-born noise; using the shirt clip does a pretty decent job, but it's not perfect.
I do both of these things so that'd explain my lack of complaints with that.
I do not mind the frost triflanges, nor the foams, but the "gliders" (round ones) and the large triflanges were extremely unpleasant to use. The foams also made them sound like beats without the S adapter >_>
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Funny, but fixable:
I dislike all the stock tips especially the triflanges, and Comply P series work fine for me.
Wearing the cable behind one's ears completely eliminates cable-born noise; using the shirt clip does a pretty decent job, but it's not perfect.
I forgot about the P series. Those may work better. I found the normal Comply T-100s less comfortable than the triflanges which is pretty odd since I like Comply on everything else I've tried it on.
I already wear it over ear too. That does help some, but not enough. It still moves around too much every time I turn my head to the side and eventually my ear canals get so irritated I have to take them out. The still last longer in my ears than the MTPG did.
Side story about the MTPG:
I got them as a review sample from Monster. Since I couldn't sell them I gave them to my brother. He went to a concert or something in Chicago, got mugged, and they took his the MTPGs along with his Creative DAP. Somebody needs to walk the plank for that...
walk the plank2
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My top 5 of most disappointing piece of gear I heard:
1) JM Lab Grande Utopia: I have heard these many times, in many different systems and while technically very good, they always sounded sterile to me (totally devoid of fun factor).
2) In the same vein but to a lower degree, Magnepan speakers: they do incredible things for the money, they are great with jazz and small acoustic ensemble but I dare you throw a party with these, they simply won't rock out.
3) Many years ago, a salesman put on a demo of Klipsch speakers (can't remember the model but they were expensive): they had great details, good dynamics, very impressive demo. After a couple of hours, I was ready to purchase them but at the last minute decided to sleep on it for a day or two. Finally, when leaving the shop, I was so relieved to getting back to a quiet environment: that's when I discovered ear fatigue.
4) Audeze EL-8: really guys, you used to make half-decent headphones, wtf happened? I guess you can blame it on BMW.
5) Audioquest Nighthawk: I attended a demo for the UK launch, after all the marketing hype, I wasn't thrilled with what I heard but I wasn't offended either until the presenters told me the targeted street price. Thanks boys, I'll keep my HD650 and with the money saved, I'll buy a Modi and a Magni and a Wyrd (there might be enough money leftover for the PYST cables too).
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My top 5 of most disappointing piece of gear I heard:
1) JM Lab Grande Utopia: I have heard these many times, in many different systems and while technically very good, they always sounded sterile to me (totally devoid of fun factor).
All of the various JM speakers I've heard over the years have stunk, including the then $90K Grande Utopia Be. I listened to them at a dealer for awhile, and then went to a room showcasing Dynaudio Confidence C4s across the hall, which were then priced at around $16K. The Dyns absolutely obliterated the JMs.
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All of the various JM speakers I've heard over the years have stunk, including the then $90K Grande Utopia Be. I listened to them at a dealer for awhile, and then went to a room showcasing Dynaudio Confidence C4s across the hall, which were then priced at around $16K. The Dyns absolutely obliterated the JMs.
I heard them grand utopias a while back and thought they were good, but nothing special. I actually put it down to the room and unfamiliar music (and wasn't listening that attentively as they are nowhere near my price range). Looking back on it, they were surprisingly meh. Odd that, since they make and design drivers and all.