CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => DIY => Topic started by: CEE TEE on August 15, 2013, 09:33:02 PM
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Would LOVE to see more DIY on the OUTSIDE of amplifiers. Lots of tools to work on design now!
Been working on my first amp faceplate design. Have tweaked the files to get shapeways.com (https://www.shapeways.com/) to send me some prototypes by the end of the month. If protos look good, I’ll tweak them further and as long as I don’t get a heart attack from the material cost to go to CNC…I’ll have it made.
Can’t use $8,000 SolidWorks/AutoCAD? For $129. (http://www.engadget.com/2013/08/14/3d-systems-sculpt/)
FREE from: AutoCAD. (http://www.123dapp.com/make)
3D scanning from Makerbot NEXT WEEK. (http://www.engadget.com/2013/08/14/makerbots-digitizer-will-go-on-sale-next-week/)
Next year 3D printers will be CHEAPER & by more companies. (http://thediplomat.com/tech-biz/2013/07/23/3d-printing-expiring-patents-could-usher-in-new-era-for-consumers/)
Formlabs (Kickstarter upstart) sued by 3D Systems, tech will be past patent next February. WIRED ARTICLE (http://www.wired.com/design/2012/11/3d-systems-formlabs-lawsuit/) FORMLABS (http://formlabs.com/)
Makerbot still sold for $403MM even with the older tech that has been out of patent. Article (http://thediplomat.com/tech-biz/2013/06/20/stratasys-buys-3d-printing-startup-makerbot-for-403-million/) MAKERBOT (http://www.makerbot.com/)
(They will send you a sample for free that is printed by the Replicator 2.)
Don’t want your own printer or want to print in metal, silver, or ceramic???: Shapeways (https://www.shapeways.com/)
(They also have an online store so that you can sell your designs. For $30 you can get a sample key of 5 printed materials and a $25 Credit Coupon back.)
Want it today without owning a 3D printer? Are you in San Diego?: Engadget UPS Article (http://www.engadget.com/2013/07/31/ups-to-offer-3d-printing-service-in-select-san-diego-stores-vid/)
Want a HUGE 3D printer? 3D Systems (http://www.3dsystems.com/)
Please discuss/share… ahoy
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Reserved for more links:
Alpha Dogs- 3D printed phones (http://www.head-fi.org/t/676095/mrspeakers-alpha-dog-revealed-the-worlds-first-production-3d-printed-headphones)
Thingiverse (http://www.thingiverse.com/)
eMachineShop (http://www.emachineshop.com/) Machine custom parts online. Free CAD software & CNC services. (purrin uses this in reply #3)
microcarve bBox (http://www.microcarve.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=53/) DIY desktop CNC machine. (n3rdling built one, see reply #9) WHY? (http://www.8020cnc.com/)
www.cnczone.com (http://www.cnczone.com/) (the HF of CNC/machining...huge, good for beginners, ask anything you want, etc.)
www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/ (http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/) (the HC of machining...veterans with a lot of experience, more info per post, tilted a bit more towards industry than hobby work though)
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Reserved to share pics/cost/stuff I get made and how I had to tweak files for 3D print manufacturability.
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I've been using eMachineShop. Not 3D printing, but more 3D milling and lathe with steel, aluminum, wood, etc.
The Cicada flush mount baffle was a minor pain for me to get the dimensions right exactly. After I got it right (checked with a actual size printout), Craig finally let me know that he had the template. I guess I should have asked him first.
The Cicada cabinets are falling apart, so I'll probably be putting the Cicada drivers into an open baffle configuration - my next speaker project.
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Ehh, 3D printers are a pain in the rear end. Royal pain.
Trying to print anything that takes a longer time means it will break sooner or later and you'll get a half-finished part.
Granted, we're using home-made older designs of 3D printers, but seriously... the tech is not ready yet, plus the material choice is very limited.
You need different nozzles and heating systems for various plastics.
CNC mill is way better and way more versatile, also much more expensive.
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^That's why I like the idea of using services like shapeways.com until I know that I will enjoy having a 3D printer. And it will be a long time until I can have a metal, ceramic, or BIG printer. (Just keeping an Epson clean and running for photos was a pain in the days of the 1280.)
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Funny, Centric (my other company) was the marketing agency for 3D Systems in their earlier years (1993-7), and my business partner in Centric was the head of their marketing department. So, we know a thing or two about stereolithography, which is a high-res, high-quality, very messy, toxic, and slow way to make parts. We also launched their Actua product, which was the first raster-based additive 3D printer--and holy crap did it have problems--clogging, soft material, etc. We also did some work with a company that was making metal parts with sonic welding. That didn't go very far, for many different reasons (not least of which was the sound, the sound, holy crap the sound.)
Today, 3D printing is one of the darlings of the tech world, with people promising all sorts of wacky things like printing household items from downloaded designs. Yeah, well, we're getting to a point where 3D printing can be truly useful, but I wouldn't plan on printing your own cellphone anytime soon. Most of the press is about the cheap 3D printers, the ones that use melted filament to build parts. But there's really a VERY wide range of 3D printing tech out there, and it's being used in some surprising places:
Filament: builds parts with melted plastic filament, with middling-to-poor resolution. This is great for plastic figurines of your cat and such (no, just kidding, actually there are some very good uses for this, and it can build some very good parts with internal latticing and such that really isn't feasible to produce any other way.) A friend in the entertainment specialty costume biz has a couple of these machines for rough protos and such, as well as a stereolithography machine that is used for "real" production.
Wax raster: Builds wax parts with a raster printhead similar to an inkjet printer. Used to make wax masters for investment casting. You'd be amazed at how many of these are running around in the jewelry business. That $15,000 Tacori engagement ring you just bought? That was cast from a 3D-printed wax master.
Stereolithography: uses UV lasers to cure liquid resin--this is the granddaddy of all the 3D printing tech--and can make very finely finished parts with high resolution. The catch is, the resins are expensive, toxic, and not a lot of fun to deal with. Fun fact: many of the parts of the Loki costume in Avengers, as well as all the parts of the Spider-Man outfit are now stereolithography, because they are interchangeable and provide a consistent dimension as opposed to silicone molds. It's not uncommon for them to build 12-40 complete suits for a movie, so this tech is perfect for short-run production. The material is hard, solid, and does not delaminate.
Selective laser sintering (SLS). Another oldie. This one heats metal powder to near-melting in an inert nitrogen atmosphere, and uses a laser to selectively melt the powder to produce metal parts. Wowzers. Has finish problems. Needs tanks of nitrogen. VERY expensive. NASA is testing using this to print rocket nozzles right now.
Bottom line, there's a lot of different 3D printing tech out there, and it's being used in a lot of different places. I agree it's oversold right now, and it is a pain in the ass, and I have seen some spectacular screwups from all the technologies. It's definitely not a plug-and-play technology. It's definitely not like buying an Epson printer for running some photos. However, I'm actually pretty thrilled to see it being used in the Alpha Dogs, because it promises the ability to create a cup with physical properties that are not attainable with any other means (as you've probably seen, the AD cups are latticed internally, for a product with very light weight and very high stiffness.)
As with a lot of things, we'll see where this tech takes us. But until you've used a 3D printer, I wouldn't start getting any utopian ideas about downloading designs for usable products and forgoing the trip to Home Depot or Amazon.
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^Fantastic summary of the tech that's out there and a realworld perspective. Thank you, Jason. :)p1
My hope is that the software, hardware, & tech will get better or that the shapeways model will work well so that we can have the abilities without the headaches.
I'm dreaming of an iPhone case design adapatation to either "grab" a portable cleanly or to put the "guts" of my favorite portable into a Go-Dap-like case contraption so that straps don't block the darn touch screen. (V-Moda Verza is a nice design but isn't made for the iPhone 4S).
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I built a desktop CNC router a while ago...really fun stuff. I posted pics/vid of it on HC a little bit ago:
http://www.head-case.org/forums/topic/477-diy-amp-and-such-build-gallery/#entry594383
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"Table is a microcarve bbox kit, Gecko G540 controller/drivers, Keling 381 oz-in stepper motors, Chinese 2.2 kW spindle and VFD."
Okay, that's cool. Glad you posted. Gonna learn a lot in this thread. LINK. (http://www.microcarve.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=53) (I'll add to the 2nd post.)
Could you describe some of the capabilities of this machine that you plan on using (application to audio gear)? Also, size/material capability?
Found this article on WHY you might want to build your own CNC machine and the limitations depending upon the build: ARTICLE (http://www.8020cnc.com/)
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Sorry for taking so long to respond...I knew my post would end up being pretty lengthy, so I had to mentally prepare for it. ;) I wrote up a post on HC for FrankCooter just trying to cover the basics of CNC parts, so I figured I'd post that info here in case anybody is interested.
For your links, personally I'd add two big forums:
www.cnczone.com (the HF of CNC/machining...huge, good for beginners, ask anything you want, etc.)
www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/ (the HC of machining...veterans with a lot of experience, more info per post, tilted a bit more towards industry than hobby work though)
My machine can do about 12" x 12". Z depends on the bit I'm using and how far I choke up the spindle, but I can easily get any height I'll ever need on it. Maybe 5"? Able to cut Foam/wood/plastics/soft metals/PCB.
Anywho, here's the post minus the stuff personally addressed towards Frank:
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Basically you want to determine what materials and what table size you need at minimum. From there you can narrow down parts/models.
You can go with a pre built model like the Shark, Probotix, etc or you can DIY one yourself. The level of DIY varies greatly...I went with a pre planned table and I believe Kerry actually designed his table himself. Going the DIY route allows you to have a table any size you want and also helps with upgrading down the line if you get into it.
For the table, almost all CNCs will either be moving gantry or fixed gantry. All that's describing is whether the router is moving up and down the y axis or if this is accomplished by moving the table underneath along the y axis. For an idea of how a fixed gantry works, look at the pics of my CNC. The spindle can move up and down or right to left along that threaded rod, but moving top to bottom (y axis) is accomplished by moving the table platform along the rod underneath it. Fixed gantries have increased rigidity which comes in handy for harder to cut materials. The downside is that it effectively cuts the travel along the y axis in half. As an example, a moving gantry on my table would do about 24" x 12" whereas my setup only does about 12" x 12". For my uses I decided I'd rather go with a little more strength.
Another consideration for the table frame is material used. The entry level stuff is typically made of wood/MDF. The better tables are made of metal, usually aluminum t slots (8020 I think). You probably want a metal frame if you're gonna do frequent metal engraving, etc. The downside is that metal t bars really add up in price. My table is a hybrid of the two, so it uses milled aluminum pieces to strengthen the most critical points/joints of the table and then MDF for the rest.
The next things to determine are the motors. The two types of motors are steppers and servos. Steppers are used in mid/entry machines and servos are used in the more expensive machines. A wiki will be able to better describe the difference between the two, but essentially steppers take 'steps' and servos are 'smooth'. I believe the normal stepper motor has 360 steps per revolution, but depending on the type of rod/ballscrew you use a single revolution will only move the axis about 1/6". Add in the newer stepper drivers that have microstepping (so they can take even less than a full step) and that's 10x the normal resolution of the motor. Overall I think you can get by just fine with that kind of accuracy ;) Servos are not only smooth in movement, but they also have a built in feedback mechanism so that the motors aren't turning 'blindly'. However, these are really quite expensive. Next thing you want to look at when shopping motors is the size/torque. ebay has motors for pretty cheap but most either don't provide ratings or they're the bottom of the barrel...torque probably won't be that great. I spent a long time looking up motor comparisons, and most of the guys think Automation Technologies sell the best steppers for the price. Motor size is listed in in-oz. Bigger/more powerful ones help with cutting stronger materials and also for moving axis around. You'd be surprised how heavy one of those spindles is, so asking the motor to lift it vertically along the z axis is a lot. Many people get 2 normal sized motors for x and y, and get the next size up for the z. I ended up getting 3 pretty good sized motors, but kinda wish I went a size up for the Z.
Now you need electronics: something to drive the motors and something to communicate with the computer. If you go the servo route, they come with the motor control. Steppers don't come with anything, so look for a stepper motor control. Personally, I found SO many positive reviews (actually universal...I've yet to see a negative review) of the Gecko G540 that I just went with that. It makes things a lot simpler and is quite powerful. It drives up to 4 axis, communicates with the PC via parallel port, and has a plethora of extra options such as spindle control, 1/10 microstepping, etc. It also has many users, so troubleshooting/getting set up is easier. I don't think I took a picture, but basically I have a chassis with the gecko mounted on the back, the switching power supply inside, a power switch and E-Stop on the front, and room for a CPU fan on the back. I can connect relays to the gecko in the future if I want to, say, switch on the water pump or a vacuum automatically or via software. Before I forget, most of these setups require a PC with a parallel port on the back (though there are some with USB instead). It also can't be the add on parellel port found on most parallel port extension cards. You also need to make sure the parallel cable you use has all the pins connected...a lot of them only have certain pins connected because people typically only use them for printers, but mach3 software uses more pins.
Next you need to decide what you want to cut with. Most basic setups use a router, and spindles are the next step up. Routers are cheaper, plug and play, need a custom holder to mount it to the z axis, and are generally recommended for wood. Spindles are much quieter and are useful between about 10,000-24,000 RPM. Below that they have too little torque. A spindle would probably be a good idea if you want to do some aluminum engraving. Spindles are also more expensive...a legit American or European spindle will cost thousands, but many of the CNC guys use spindles from China that are sold on ebay. They run maybe $400-800 depending on how much HP you want, and this includes the VFD. Unlike routers, you can't just plug the spindle into an outlet. You need to control it with a variable frequency drive to manage speeds. You need a 240V outlet or 3 phase power if you plan on running one of the more powerful spindles, otherwise they'll trip your breaker. The VFD takes the AC and powers the spindle while controlling the frequency between 200-400 Hz. For example, 200 Hz = 12k RPM, 300 Hz = 18k RPM, and 400 Hz = 24k RPM.
The last major element is the computer and software. I bought an old Dell desktop PC off of ebay for cheap since it came with a parallel port and I intend to use that computer for nothing but CNC. There are three phases on the software front: CAD, CAM, and control software. CAD software is what you use to draw stuff, either in 2d or 3d. AutoCAD, TurboCAD, and SketchUp (free) are popular CAD packages in 2D. SolidWorks, Inventor, and Blender (free) are popular CAD packages in 3D. CAM software is what's used to convert your drawings into G-Code, which is the language of CNC. You tell the CAM software things like the work area size, bit being used, etc and it takes your drawing and does all the calculations needed to create the vectors your machine will travel along. Popular CAM software is MasterCAM, BOB, Dolphin, and Vectric's packages. Control software basically takes the G code created by the CAM software and reads the file/moves the motors as instructed in the code. You setup your motors and table limits here first, and then you can control things like speeds. The standard in control software is Mach3 ($100), but EMC2 is gaining popularity and is free.
Additional costs add up as well for all the little things you need to get everything going. Limit switches, wiring to the spindle, wiring to the motors, wiring to the switches, fixture clamps, spindle/router clamp, connectors, relays, switches, collets, BITS. The bits really add up, but I'm sure you have a bunch of nice ones already. :)
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I remember seeing a giant SIEMENS 3D metal printer at my local uni, they had some kind of powder and they lasered each layer on top of each other kind of like plastic printers. The quality was pretty great, plenty of things you can make with those The thing unfortunately was $400,000 though.
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http://arc-team-open-research.blogspot.com.br/2012/12/how-to-make-3d-scan-with-pictures-and.html
http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?276668-How-to-make-3d-scan-with-pictures-and-the-Python-Photogrammetry-Toolbox-GUI
:-DD
Also this: http://opensourcephotogrammetry.blogspot.com/
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Cornell produces a speaker solely by 3D printing. Engadget Article. (http://www.engadget.com/2013/12/16/cornell-speaker/)
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3D printed magnets...huh?
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Ya I didn't get that part either. Is that legit or editor error?
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Same. Though they do have 3D printers for metal.
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Can't wait to torrent food and 3D print it.
Oh, wait, are we talking about audio?
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Can't wait to torrent food and 3D print it.
Oh, wait, are we talking about audio?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2384715/At-tastes-meat--Worlds-test-tube-artificial-beef-Googleburger-gets-GOOD-review-eaten-time.html
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From the article on Cornell.edu:
For the magnet, he employed the help of Samanvaya Srivastava, graduate student in chemical and biomolecular engineering, to come up with a viscous blend pf strontium ferrite.
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Wow, that will be expensive for mass production. Prices of strontium aren't exactly low.
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What if we do a group buy? ;)
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Sounds weak like that magnetic tape stuff.