CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Main Deck => Discussion for Registered Members Only => Topic started by: Marvey on September 03, 2014, 04:26:38 AM
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http://www.head-fi.org/t/693798/thoughts-on-a-bunch-of-dacs-and-why-i-hate-chocolate-ice-cream/1275#post_10849325 (http://www.head-fi.org/t/693798/thoughts-on-a-bunch-of-dacs-and-why-i-hate-chocolate-ice-cream/1275#post_10849325)
Since Amos put words in my mouth and then locked the thread, I just wanted to say that the Hugo has coarse and unrefined treble - which is different from harsh treble.
Amos: I think you are being disrespectful to the community here with your implying that people here (or the people I know) are mindless zombies who dare not disagree with me.
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Police States are fun for everyone!
Never heard the Hugo-but no way in heck I'd pay more than $200 based on cheap looks alone. Chintzy.
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Honestly, I think the following:
1. I was learning a lot about the Hugo from both sides, why people like and don't like it. A HF'er wanted to trade his Hugo for my KGSShv.
2. I thought that the conversation was actually ending on a civil note with both sides agreeing to disagree.
I have no vested interest in this DAC/Amp either way since in India you just don't get to audition anything, period. Hence, I spend more time reading rather than listening. Locking a thread out is just not the answer. I have seen worse on HF threads. On a related note, Marv's review of the Gungnir helped me make my decision to buy it instead of the NAD M51 (or the Auralic Vega).
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Yes, and I was honest with you about possible shortcomings of the Gungnir too - if I recall correctly.
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"There are no measurements showing any kind of distortion in the treble that I am aware of."
Explains a lot. Though my favorite was a while back, some other thread, when Jude said he didn't know what some term like "tizzy" meant...not exactly sure if it was that word exactly, but something close. You know, the kind of word you use to describe audio that newcomers and old folks can both understand, let alone the guy running the biggest headphone forum around. Sorta kinda related to this DAC thread and many other situations, I guess...Everything is cool when you're not sure what you're looking for.
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Seen a Hugo in person, and even the shopkeeper I was talking to felt the build quality was rubbish. One of the large circles (that changes colour) on the face actually came unglued...because it's glued from the inside. Given the unintuitive interface, it was easy to see why a customer would prod the circle, thinking it might be a button.
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Why the hell was that thread locked? I think Currawong read more between the lines then anyone else did. It even ended on a friendly note! A fucking shame because that was a goldmine of information about DACs, if not one of the best threads on HF.
Moves like that makes lurkers like me very angry.... walk the plank
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Dude, just stop being honest about sponsored products. That's all they want. Just your soul.
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Deleted.
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@Purrin's : I saw you disappeared from the HD800 thread too. Did Someone ask you to shut up ( I did but you know why :)p8 ) or something ?
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I think Mython was being a baby to be honest. I mean if you don't like what's being said in a thread, then don't read it. It's really simple! It's not like all of this was going on in the Chord Hugo Appreciation thread then I would have understood maybe deleting some posts and moving on. I have tried the Chord Hugo attached to an AK240. The guy who showed it to me called it "this is as good as it gets for portable audio". I remember telling him, it sounds alright but that's over $4500 of gear. I want $4500 worth of gear to sound so much better than it did (again my opinion).
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LOL, just realized that thread is locked...It is still hard for me to understand why it is not allowed to post links from Changstar on HF.
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@Purrin's : I saw you disappeared from the HD800 thread too. Did Someone ask you to shut up ( I did but you know why :)p8 ) or something ?
I'm locked out of it.
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@Purrin's : I saw you disappeared from the HD800 thread too. Did Someone ask you to shut up ( I did but you know why :)p8 ) or something ?
I'm locked out of it.
Seriously ? by HF moderators ?
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I'm locked out of it.
Lemme guess. You forgot to say "everything is awesome", someone pulled out the apples and oranges card + u like mellow + different tastes + don-tack-me-bro, and the thread lock hammer came down... because y'all didn't like the silver brick... Haven't heard it but it does look fisher pricy (seen it live) and the Spartan-6 26k tap WTA filter white paper stinks like BS to me. Again haven't heard it so I can't say much.
Enforced no-thumbs-up too. Wow!
Yur speshol though. In such cases I just get kicked out of the thread. I don't get my own custom no-thumbs-up account.
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I unsubscribed the Hugo thread.
So much hype for an expensive product...
It is not bad, but not my cup of tea.
Like the M7 better. The NFB-7, too.
There seem to be huge discrepancies between feedback that I was wondering if my Hugo was defective or something.
I digged the quteHD sound and was quite disappointed to hear the Hugo took a path towards leaner and ultra-detailed sound..
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Enforced no-thumbs-up too. Wow!
It was indeed the big artillery, thread lock, removal of the reputations (was at 3 or 4 when I upped Purrin's post)... The strangest thing to me is that this absolutely does not feel like wrong discussion or anything? Indeed, simply going against the grain is just not tolerated anymore, especially when your voice has quite a bit of weight.
Utterly disappointed myself. Moderation may be a tough job (and reason why I never accepted to get into it), but that is simply abusing of authority imo... I've had my beef in the past with some of the discussions on this board but, in face of this, I realize having a single dominant website that has extreme pressure from sponsors and such is a really terrible idea... Infomercial at best is where it's going it feels.
arnaud
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Yup. I think ppl r taking things too personal there. I mean, I don't always agree with Marv, but I do respect his opinion and experience quite a bit.
It's not like some random dude that comes out saying the Hugo is the best thing evar cuz it beat some random Meridian transport and it's cage is made out of solid magnesium. Then go about how wonderfully knowledgeable Chord is, specially after trying to make sense of their WTA filter voodoo.
Hell, if we all here thought exactly the same we all would be having the exact same equipment and having mutual masturbation sessions about how awesome our equipments are. I think we all know where we are coming from though. There are things that are utter crap though or systems that don't necessarily pair well together unless one is looking for something in particular and such things IMO should be disclosed.
There is no point in going "every thing is awesome", or going all front page about some random sponsor (or potential sponsor) new product for no apparent reason... only to regretfully find out about it's faults later.
Hugo SQ and presentation was simply not liked by some. Reasons were given.
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This time around, I think it goes deeper with Currawang. I wrote a little spiel in the HD800 appreciation thread about where I was coming from with the critical approach (in response to the brouhaha over the GSX2 / HD800 combination).
For some odd reason, this post got Currawang pissed off and in turn he decided to publicly chide me by replying what I wrote was "self-justifying BS" along with other dismissive borderline personal attack kind of stuff. In a follow up post, I wrote that evidently many other people didn't feel same way as he did - as my initial post already had several thumbs up. Basically made Currawang look like an idiot, so he deleted his own post.
I'm sure this incident burned a hole in his fragile psyche. The fact is whether people agree with me or not, or if I come off as too much of a dick, people do want to read what I have to say. And I know this must piss the hell out of Currawang, especially since the crowd is NOT cheering for him, but instead for his enemy. The only resort was for him to cheat by attributing statements to me which I never said and then locking the thread.
Why I am thinking Joaquin Phoenix and Russell Crowe?
No doubt why the thumbs up button for my HF posts have been removed.
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Head-Fi is great for companies trying to sell goods. That's about it. Step on that, and you'll get shit, mostly from brainwashed consumers/minions. The mods are sitting in the sponsors' pockets.
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We're all entertained.
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One of my favorite ex-members had a fairly insightful conjecture about the way they run their business:
"I think the closest parallel would be The Party in Orwell's 1984, minus the competance of course. You have the proles represented by the countless clueless newbies & twits, the Outer Party made up of the suck-ups, shills, and some of the manufacturers & mods [...], and the Inner Party which is Jude & his trusted cronies, who can be counted on to delete & edit threads and ban people to keep the illusion alive.
Putting on my cynical conspiracy hat, it totally makes sense. The more noobs there are and the less information there is, the easier it becomes for Head-fi and its favored sponsors to make s---loads of money by pressuring & lying to the clueless. By removing the veterans, it helps preserve the information vacuum which makes it work.
Let's look at it again from the money perspective with a few generalizations. The guys who have been around for a while usually have more experience and know the general direction in which they're going. They're not too easily influenced by hype, they tend to trust what their friends say as opposed to what the Head-fi shillers say, which makes them a not so great market for the hype machine. In short, Head-fi and its favored sponsors ain't gonna make much money off them. Sure someone [...] might buy a $10,000 amp, but you can likely count the number of people [...] on one hand. Clueless noobs, well, there's a practically unlimited supply of them, as an absolute lower limit there's at least 1000, sell each of them [sponsored product X] and that's more money than I care to count. That's where the money is, who cares if you lose a few experienced members if it means you can get thousands of clueless twits to part with their money.
And that is really f------ sad, as much as they claim "it's all about the music & community", well, we know it's a goddamn lie, it's about the money and that's a shame. [...] Head-fi was a great forum in the earlier days, it really was a place with good genuine advice and sense of community and I enjoyed and learned a lot in my first years. Honest opinions were welcomed and we'd debate and trash out our disagreements. Now? It's a shadow of its former self living off its past glories."
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That's pretty bang on the money Claritas.
I think even the sorta-noobs are catching on though since it seems like there's less activity on HF these days. Once HF's rep starts to spread as an interactive online catalog rather than discussion boards, it's gonna be real hard to shed that image. I think they have to be careful with how far they're taking some of this stuff.
It's a little depressing to occasionally read an old (pre Huddler) thread and see the difference in discourse from what we see today. So many of the best posters either stopped visiting or got banned (really a shockingly sizeable portion got banned...if you've been on HC less than 3 days you have a good chance of being banned; if you've been on HF more than 3 years you have a good chance of being banned). Posters used to be able to basically post what they wanted and everybody was thick-skinned enough to understand posts are just opinions. I think the descent started around the time the LCD-2 came out when kwkarth basically deleted any posts and banned members who dared to say anything negative about them, and it kinda spiraled out of control since then.
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I think the descent started around the time the LCD-2 came out when kwkarth basically deleted any posts and banned members who dared to say anything negative about them, and it kinda spiraled out of control since then.
this is the turning point in HF history that has stuck in my mind as well. i think it was around 3yrs ago or so, shortly after the Huddler platform changes.
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The forum change was a big deterrent for me. It looked like a used car sales lot took a shit on the front page.
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No doubt why the thumbs up button for my HF posts have been removed.
I think that the most upped posts appear on the H-F Home page and guess which post is the most appreciated right now ? (08:12 am GMT) :
https://www.dropbox.com/s/wivhaeppdiq6fg0/HF_HOME_PAGE.png?dl=0
Too irritating for H-F maybe ? :)p8
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I think even the sorta-noobs are catching on though since it seems like there's less activity on HF these days. Once HF's rep starts to spread as an interactive online catalog rather than discussion boards, it's gonna be real hard to shed that image. ...
It's not long since I signed up on Headfi. It's even less long since I discovered this place, and not many years since I became a serious headphone user.
I think there is a place for "interactive online catalogs" but sometimes, to a newb, it isn't that obvious that that's what one is looking at. I suppose I'll always look at headfi for finding stuff about almost every imaginable 'phone-related product, but in the same way as I look at a glossy magazine, which I know is absolutely directly dependent on its advertising, and is really just a part of the industry, rather than anything that represents the consumer.
Thanks, Changstar, for the eye opening! :)p7 :)p7
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geez, every time I take a break from constant forum lurking, sections of the multiverse collapse.
I was recently googling for info that I knew was in the headwize archives, and I stumbled on this thread on head-fi http://www.head-fi.org/t/12138/the-end-of-headwize (http://www.head-fi.org/t/12138/the-end-of-headwize) which is a startling forecast for the hobby's current circumstances. Even Tyll is in there explaining his thoughts / position (circa 2002).
My favorite is this quote from Jeff Guidry at post 14 on page 1:
"I think you may be off the mark if you believe that head-fi is a business. To me, that implies that Jude is attempting to make money from selling company sponsorships. He has already gone on record saying that hosting this site costs him several hundred dollars a month despite the ad revenue, hardly a successfull [sic] business model. None of his posts about the subject lead me to believe that this site is intended to be anything other than a hobby for him and a pasttime [sic] for us."
whoops!
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/sigh
Reading this thread just reminds me of why HF is becoming irrelevant more and more for me. Hell, even the "because I've made friends there" factor is diminishing rapidly, as the Diary Thread is shuttered at MF's request, and most of the pioneers of the anime thread there has left for FB starting on the day kwkarth (that bastard) banned me for a while from the thread. Also there's an annoying loud mouthed baby-brained weaboo there, and there's nothing more infuriating to me when it's the character I some times use jokingly in a very serious, straight-faced manner.
Oh yeah and all the mods being crazy protecting the manufacturers' revenue.
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My favorite is this quote from Jeff Guidry at post 14 on page 1:
"I think you may be off the mark if you believe that head-fi is a business. To me, that implies that Jude is attempting to make money from selling company sponsorships. He has already gone on record saying that hosting this site costs him several hundred dollars a month despite the ad revenue, hardly a successfull [sic] business model. None of his posts about the subject lead me to believe that this site is intended to be anything other than a hobby for him and a pasttime [sic] for us."
WHAT?!
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CS7j5I6aOc
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$$ changes people.
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Currently, most [dis]liked post in HF currently is Amoses "So...where to begin?" personal attack reply there.
..and what is the most active thread? "Official」Asian Anime,..." ... Progress. Thinking about Asian Anime companies sponsorship opportunities.
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1754.0;attach=7534;image)
EDIT: LOL! @ 3rd top rated post.
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In the meantime Amos just sees the rep # and assumes his superiority.
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My favorite is this quote from Jeff Guidry at post 14 on page 1:
"I think you may be off the mark if you believe that head-fi is a business. To me, that implies that Jude is attempting to make money from selling company sponsorships. He has already gone on record saying that hosting this site costs him several hundred dollars a month despite the ad revenue, hardly a successfull [sic] business model. None of his posts about the subject lead me to believe that this site is intended to be anything other than a hobby for him and a pasttime [sic] for us."
WHAT?!
Ha, ha... that is funny. He thinks Jude is out of pocket to run Head-Fi!! ha ha... He may not be getting rich, but he's not running at a loss.
One thing I've learned recently through work on another forum is that the old model of making money off the adds is no longer sustainable. That market came and went. Regular add income doesn't add up to squat! I'm sure Marv will tell you that the little adds on this site wouldn't pay for his coffee in the morning, never mind paying for servers etc...
Now, sponsorship! That is a different story. That is where the money is coming from... and that is why they need to protect the existing sponsors, and that's why they target ANYONE who seems like they are making money to be a sponsor.
Did anyone notice Innerfidelitie's announcement about changes to come? If you're in business you need to do what is going to keep your business thriving. I'm sure Tyl has a vision of what he'd like to do with the website if it wasn't a business, and he has to have a vision of what it is since it IS a business. Of course Tyl's not a dick about it, but that's a different story... :)
Head-Fi is a business. Big or small, doesn't matter. And I say, cool, have at it. It means that I'm not so interested in hanging out there much anymore, but that's OK, there are plenty of folks who like it there. I hope it's great for them.
There is still room on the web for places like this and HC where the grass root whackos like us can continue do our thing. That's cool.
Sorry to get a bit off topic.... closing the DAC thread was total BS, but not surprising at all... C'est la vie.
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It's gotten really bad:
(http://i61.tinypic.com/t7j0a9.jpg)
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wtf happened with that thumb up???
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wtf happened with that thumb up???
Sorcery ! :)p2 (or more probably photoshop/gimp...)
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Did anyone notice Innerfidelitie's announcement about changes to come? If you're in business you need to do what is going to keep your business thriving. I'm sure Tyl has a vision of what he'd like to do with the website if it wasn't a business, and he has to have a vision of what it is since it IS a business. Of course Tyl's not a dick about it, but that's a different story... :)
Ya know, that's exactly true, if I had a bajillion bucks in the bank and could do what I wanted, I would do very different things. None the less, I think there's a way to thread the needle and be valuable and viable simultaneously. But you're right, it's not the optimal way to get information out.
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One of my favorite ex-members had a fairly insightful conjecture about the way they run their business:
"I think the closest parallel would be The Party in Orwell's 1984
Never trust an old shopkeeper to let you use the room upstairs for sex.
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So I had this email exchange with Currawong last night about how counter-productive the thread lock was, essentially turning me away from head-fi. Did not think Currawong would pay attention but maybe he's had to respond to bunch of pms and emails as voila, thread reopened.
What a drama for so little, but the good news is that people do listen...
Arnaud
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So I had this email exchange with Currawong last night about how counter-productive the thread lock was, essentially turning me away from head-fi. Did not think Currawong would pay attention but maybe he's had to respond to bunch of pms and emails as voila, thread reopened.
What a drama for so little, but the good news is that people do listen...
Arnaud
Deleted as I was wrong.
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It might sound simple. Would it help HF to develop a new and clear vision, mission statement and to create its own PR team instead of Jude and Amos complicating matters?
As a novice I loved HF. As I got experience I detested HF as I felt the priorities of HF were contradictory. Hence I drifted off after Huddler...
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I for one am delighted that the thread is open. I felt Marv did not need to say what he said initially but that's his prerogative. In retrospect, it seems like that guy/gal Mython was spoiling for an argument that was totally uncalled for IN THAT THREAD. But I loved it when the post on the Bricasti happened. It's like, back to the business of DAC evaluation.
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Mython acted as a cry baby. I guess HF pampers to consumer cry babies who do not like critical remarks. It is kind of typical...
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Mython acted as a cry baby. I guess HF pampers to consumer cry babies who do not like critical remarks. It is kind of typical...
I have no idea what u mean. ;)
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Mython called out the thread when he heard that his precious Chord Hugo wasn't idolized like it was in other places and in his own mind. Then he backpedaled like a little bitch when Purrin challenged his resolve. Hate people like that who can't back up their talk. Thankfully, the thread is back on track again.
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Didn't know H-fi had the thumbs up/down option now...
From what I've experienced over there if you frown down on a FOTM product which the company happens to be a sponsor or talk ill of a product some of the mods/admin's own or greatly favour, your post is discredited and you'll receive a nice little reminder about it through PM.
If you keep posting your locked out of the thread. If the process keeps on iterating you're given a serious warning about a possible temporary ban.
Interesting comparison thread btw. Gj with the efforts Marv.
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this thread disheartens me, as HF is my only source for news and reviews regarding upcoming/recently released products. i'd switch in a heartbeat, but there isn't any other site that comes even remotely close to the sheer size of HF (though i understand the problems arise from the growing userbase in the first place)
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this thread disheartens me, as HF is my only source for news and reviews regarding upcoming/recently released products. i'd switch in a heartbeat, but there isn't any other site that comes even remotely close to the sheer size of HF (though i understand the problems arise from the growing userbase in the first place)
Size is sometimes the problem here. HF might get the latest news first but there are other places for information and impressions. Sometimes HF felt like an overcrowded bus. That feeling became too strong and bye bye...
I drifted off to other audio forums and there is something for everyone. One thing you do notice is that in smaller audio forums there is less "look-at-me" and more honesty regarding choices. A simple PM or slight derailing question was often enough to get your answers. No endurance lurking, just relatively quick answers. There some smart people at Head-Case and Rock-Grotto too.
Also, trust your ears. If you like the certain audio gear just enjoy it. Not everything that is new is always the best p;)
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True that, changer for measurements/impressions, headfi for news, amb/diyaudio/headcase for diy. Even other sites like rockgrotto and anythingbutipod are fairly good.
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thanks for listing some alternatives, i'll make sure to check them out
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It might sound simple. Would it help HF to develop a new and clear vision, mission statement and to create its own PR team instead of Jude and Amos complicating matters?
As a novice I loved HF. As I got experience I detested HF as I felt the priorities of HF were contradictory. Hence I drifted off after Huddler...
Within their current business model, the easiest way to eliminate the ethically grey area they find themselves in is by informing the public that HF is a business and listing all the sponsors in one place. Let them honestly say to the community, "These are the guys who pay us; don't piss them off on our site."
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From what I've experienced over there if you frown down on a FOTM product which the company happens to be a sponsor
Especially of you frown on one of those marketing-led threads, like ifi (put me off the damn product) or GOTM-involved (God of the month) like oppo. I can get FOTMS (syndrome) as much as the next guy, but not when the manufacturer is ramming it down my throat.
It's a bit sad, really: I signed up on HF because of an interest in a limited number of products, and the experience has put me off some of them. That could, of course, be unfair on the product.
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It was purrin's thoughts about DACs thread on HF that was helpful to me. DAC preferences are personal as was noted. Yet the discussion led me to the Auralic Vega which works well in my system and ticks all my aural performance check marks. I wish to thank Marvey for taking the time to write those thoughts as it shortened my path to a high level aural enjoyment.