CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => IEM Measurements => Topic started by: Marvey on February 09, 2013, 09:22:06 PM
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From another thread, but I figured it needs its own. I held off on formally posting these to not influence certain folks during their tour.
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=626.0;attach=2605;image)
Again, FR is intentionally cut off after 9kHz.
Subjectively, I didn't really care for it. I lost my notes - maybe Anax has some or remembers. I believe my main issue with it was a somewhat disjointed sound - from the bass all through the upper mids. No HD measurements - I was too lazy and didn't care enough to bother.
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The two words that come to mind were disjointed and incoherent signature. Bass had a natural sounding euphony to them, but not 'accurate' as they are marketed. Mids were the problem. I'd have preferred them with the mids and treble drivers removed and used solely as a bass monitor. Oddly, the 3ai was less refined and had more issues but somehow managed to make more sense overall in it's signature. Both were overpriced for the performance and I'd take about 10 other $30-$200 universals IEMs over the 3ai/4ai any day. Our sets may have had QC issues but we have not heard another set to verify any other conclusion. Though, what does it tell people when a company sends measurably defective gear out on a loaner tour?
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Hmm... this is odd. The response when they were initially on 'tour' here in Denmark was very, very positive, and as a result Heir has got a lot of happy customers here. I found the 4.Ai to be incredibly clear and detailed sounding, akin to the HD800 in a lot of ways, and ended up getting a custom pair... Can't really seem to locate the problems you are mention - at least not in my pair anyway.
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No IEM I have ever heard comes close to the HD800 as I have mine sounding, though I can see why people say that based on the variety of HD800 impressions and rigs out there.
I'd chalk the 4ai impression to inconsistency in manufacture except the 3ai is just as messed up, maybe a bit less is some ways and more in others. A number of people heard this demo pair and had similar lack of excitement. Of course there are always those that have a lower bar or point of reference or just weird tastes in addition to potentially broken demos. Suffice to say, anyone liking the demo set we heard would not have their opinion taken seriously. The signatures were just broken and no amount of tip rolling would ever be able to fix them.
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Yes thats ofcourse one thing to keep I mind, the HD800 is quite different on different rigs. But basically my impressions and those of the other Danes who own them/heard them is that the 4.Ai is that it is very neutral, very detailed and clear sounding with a good soundstage for an IEM. One person compared it to his JH13 or 16 (i forget) saying it was similar and had many of the same qualities, though the JH was still superior. Can't speak for that though since I haven't heard it. But generally very good.
The 3.Ai is a completely different story though, which as you mention is quite strange sounding - some bass heads liked it, but that's about it.
It's sad if a defect demo unit has ruined your experience with the 4.A - I'd say its worth a revisit, but it may ofcourse just not be your cup of tea ofcourse, which is fair. p;)
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Having spoken w/ some folks who are far more familiar with this stuff than I, it seems there was indeed something wrong on the tour units. Why Heir would send out something so obviously messed up is baffling.
Either way, the universal 4.Ai is going to be overshadowed by the custom 4.A which is just a better monitor all around. Driver array on the 4.A is the same as the Frogbeat C4's, so they'll have some similarities.
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True, the A.4 is definitely an improvement, which is why I got it - because I was floored by how much I liked the A.4i :)
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No IEM I have ever heard comes close to the HD800 as I have mine sounding, though I can see why people say that based on the variety of HD800 impressions and rigs out there.
I think this is an important point. I have the Tzar 350s. After I put on comply tips, they sound surprisingly close to the HD800 with the anax 2.0 mod through my portable rig. I am convinced the HD800s are capable of so much more with the proper setup. Most likely the "HD800 sound like my (insert headphone/iem)" statements are the result of the rest of the rig limiting the HD800s, as opposed to the other headphones being close to the HD800.
The 4.Ai and Tzar 350 occupy an awkward space in the IEM market. The only reason I got them is because I wanted something close to Ety's but with a replaceable cable. I am still interested to hear the 4.Ai. Someone had some at the local meet I went to but I never got around to them. I can't say for the 4.Ai, but the Tzar 350 do not sound disjointed to me compared to something like the AKG K3003.
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No IEM I have ever heard comes close to the HD800 as I have mine sounding, though I can see why people say that based on the variety of HD800 impressions and rigs out there.
I think this is an important point. I have the Tzar 350s. After I put on comply tips, they sound surprisingly close to the HD800 with the anax 2.0 mod through my portable rig. I am convinced the HD800s are capable of so much more with the proper setup. Most likely the "HD800 sound like my (insert headphone/iem)" statements are the result of the rest of the rig limiting the HD800s, as opposed to the other headphones being close to the HD800.
Personally in my case i think its mostly a matter of people taking it too litteral - what I mean is that when I say the 4.A(i) sounds like the HD800, I don't mean an exact replication, I mean what I say: it sounds like the HD800.
Which means a lot of details, good soundstage, yada-yada-you know the deal, i.e. it shares a general sound signature/ideals with it, given the same source and amp, if you will. I mean, if its not clear to everyone that the HD800 should be able to transcend a 450$ universal IEM without much trouble, then... Well.. You get my point p:/ They're similar, not the same.
Well, this is getting slightly off topic, to get back on it, does anyone know if a measurement of the Tzar's will be measured any time (and a non-defect 4.Ai assuming this one was)? Would be interesting to compare... :P
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http://rinchoi.blogspot.com/2012/10/heir-audio-4ai.html
4ai
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Oh look, the measurements are the same as ours. Oh, it's also the same unit we measured. Oh and it's not even neutral regardless of channel imbalance. Oh, and Rin talks a lot of shit 'warning' people about the 'dangers' of other headphone measurement sites and his measure ends up being the same as ours. Oh, just like Jude tried to discredit Purrin's rig by posting confidential photos that were intentionally leaked to him out of confidence by Arnaud being a douche trying to embarrass purrin publicly like he's been doing for the last year and a half every chance he gets. Oh, did I say too much? Fuck Jude, fuck Rin and fuck Arnaud and their bitch ass passive aggressive pussy shit. /end rant
For those that don't understand the nature and background context of the rant, those mentioned do, that's all that matters. Carry on.
Oh, hi Jude! *:p
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Well that escalated quickly.
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He didn't mean anything by it. My partner can fly off the rails sometimes. Ever since his last partner died in a freak accident with a measurement rig involving a dummy head he hasn't been the same. We keep telling him to take a break but he's an insomniac and a workaholic and time off eats away at him like a tapeworm.
Can I get you anything? Coffee? We can get matching pedicures and then maybe talk about this measurement debacle - I know you don't want Anax to come back and make a big stink, I'm sure we can work things out between the two of us.
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Anax has never been the same since his heart was stopped for 7 minutes when he was blown across the room while changing caps out on the S7 while it was still live!
It's still not clear how he was revived, but it's said that it was while he was clinically dead that he was inspired to modify "the face tweeters"!
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Interesting. The positive comments regarding the 4ai did not jive at all with the unit that Anax and I heard.
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Interesting. The positive comments regarding the 4ai did not jive at all with the unit that Anax and I heard.
No, I can tell p:8 Aparrantly something went wrong, because I think there are maybe 7 or more Heir iem's circulating the Danish forum (which is quite a lot considering the small size of the community), most of which were as a result of the 4.Ai being on a small tour here...
So yea, if you come across a pair I'd definitely recommend a revisit p;)
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Oh look, the measurements are the same as ours. Oh, it's also the same unit we measured. Oh and it's not even neutral regardless of channel imbalance. Oh, and Rin talks a lot of shit 'warning' people about the 'dangers' of other headphone measurement sites and his measure ends up being the same as ours. Oh, just like Jude tried to discredit Purrin's rig by posting confidential photos that were intentionally leaked to him out of confidence by Arnaud being a douche trying to embarrass purrin publicly like he's been doing for the last year and a half every chance he gets. Oh, did I say too much? Fuck Jude, fuck Rin and fuck Arnaud and their bitch ass passive aggressive pussy shit. /end rant
For those that don't understand the nature and background context of the rant, those mentioned do, that's all that matters. Carry on.
Oh, hi Jude! *:p
Just a note for anyone reading this or perhaps even Rin. I do this as a hobby and for fun. The measurements here are more or less calibrated according to my "trained" ears from years of speaker building and measurements of speakers. There are a lot of ways to take measurements. Again, for me it's fun and discovery. I don't think the measurements here are perfect, but I do feel they are good enough and reflect somewhat of what I hear (or what many others hear.)
I saw Rin's post on Head-Fi (requesting headphones for measurement), and I was about to contact him - sharing a dozen headphones, information, methods, etc. But after reading this blog and semi-"Harold / nwavdeuche" manifesto style writings on how everyone else's measurements suck (including Tyll, GE, etc.), and his were by far the best. I decided not to contact him. His blog rubs me the wrong way. I dunno, maybe he comes off sort of an ass-hat on this blog, and is really cool in real life. Everyone, even my close friends, know that I have never spoken about other people's measurements in a derogatory way, even in private.
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Personally I just feel that his harsh tone is unintentional and he just writes it as he sees it, and is motivated more by curiosity than anything else.
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Rin is exuberant, ebullient, knowledgeable but in some ways naive. I think he felt a bit burned by the GoldenEars arrangement and has nurtured a certain skepticism towards any measurement methodology that does not jive with textbook recommendations and industry standards. I know from speaking with him that his goal is to learn and share, to challenge market trends - especially with in-ears. In that respect what he does is not that much different from what Marv or Tyll do, though he is far more prescriptivist when it comes to considering things like reference curves.
If there is any implication, veiled or otherwise, that he is dissin' Marv's methods, I do not think that it is malicious in nature, I doubt it's based on any personal beef.
I did respond for his request for headphones to test, and indeed after initially testing the 009s he found a flaw in his arrangement which kept him from accurate measurements (partially detailed @ http://rinchoi.blogspot.com/2013/05/euris-accuracy-compared-to-other.html). So there is a self-corrective mechanism at work and I've noticed him to be responsive to criticism. I'll gladly continue sending headphones to both Rin & Marv because I think that the hobby is made better by parallel lines of inquiry, especially if they are based on different assumptions and methods.
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Well, his logical process is very tilted to limited/constrained version of 'objectivity'. He believes the O2 is the authority on amplification, the UERM is a reshelled TF10, the HD800 sounds little better than an HD600/650 driver (look at his amp). He's too focused on FR. I think it's clear on his writing that as long as you reach an idealized FR, you get a final optimal sound. I've done the whole matching FR thing decades ago and different mechanical drivers never sound the same, this is just deluded fantasy based on objective expectation bias. I think he's inherently a nice guy, and just writes horribly to the point it's easy to think he's picking a fight. Though his hard line belief set kind of is when it comes through, it's inevitable a la Harold.
In fact, I can't recall the last time Rin said anything about how a phone sounded w/ a piece of music..... :spank: People need to mess around more w/ instruments, you don't need to take a class just pick one up, strike a chord, play a note and listen to that purity of tone. Hell, get a set of tuning forks.