CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => Headphone Measurements => Topic started by: Marvey on June 19, 2012, 07:37:09 PM
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STAX 404LE Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plots
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=352.0;attach=1756;image)
Listening Impressions:
- Midrange shout is the most noticeable shortcoming. At least for me
- These sound very different from SR507s.
- Some occasional treble issues, but really not too bad.
- Bass roll off
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The SR-404LE was a definite improvement over the SR-404 I think, but I got it right around the time the SR-507 came out, so it was kind of overshadowed for the most part for me. I find it has the most bass presence / quantity of the three, so it's a fun listen, though the SR-507 has better bass extension.
Interesting tidbit: I believe these were first released by a company called Airbow as the SC1, who marketed them as "cryo-treated Stax SR-404s" which seemed like BS. I figured Stax just gave them the better drivers, and then finally released it themselves as the SR-404LE.
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So the Airbow SC1 is the LE?
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There are definitely more than one version of the SR-404 drivers out there. I've owned about three dozen or so 404's and all of them sounded the same (quite poor IMO) but then I buy one and it sounds just like the SR-SC1. No markings on it so probably a fluke or Stax have started to cryo random sets on the production line....
The SC1 is similar to the SE but the leather pads are bound to make a difference.
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Thanks for taking the time to test and measure these Marv. I really appreciate it.
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cf. http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/StaxSR404LtdSSL0670.pdf
The bass roll-off might have something to do with fit, I've heard the 404LE's stretch all the way down.
Shouty midrange easy to hear when switching between this Lambda and a 007, which sounds warmer by comparison.
Thanks for running the measurements!
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So, um how should I put it- I may want to jump into electrostats via this headphone. I have never heard an electrostat and there isn't one in a few hundred mile radius. The question might be- is this a good headphone?
Currently I'm listening to the HD650 so I would like some improvement. I also don't know how well would these stand against the new ortho phones.
Thank you for any constructive input and have fun with the other kind.
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The SR-404LE was a definite improvement over the SR-404 I think, but I got it right around the time the SR-507 came out
just wondering if you've also heard the 407. I read somewhere that they were the same as the 507s except for the pads.
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Haven't heard the 407s yet, but they do seem to be mostly similar to the 507 save for the frame, pads, and cables.
The first Stax I purchased for myself were the original 404s. They're not the best Lambdas by a long shot (the 202s and 404LEs are better), but at the time I was still pretty much impressed by them. As to the question of whether the 404LEs are better than other stuff out there, I think that really depends. The HD600 and HD650s are still some of the best dynamics out on the market, and the 404LE isn't going to "blow them away" or anything. But the presentation of Lambdas is so distinct and unique, so satisfying and addictive, that it's a side step well worth taking IMHO.
I think Lambdas are the quintessential introduction to 'stats, as they're just so stereotypical of what the technology is all about, what it does well, what its limitations are.
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I had the 2050 system with the 202s before and I liked them except or that softness in the sound that it had. i wasn't sure if it was the amp or the 202s themselves that sounded soft but I definitely had the feeling that the 202s could improve with the bigger stax amps vs the 252 that came with the 2050 bundle.
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Like many of us I started off with a Grado SR80i and basically what I would hate is the 404LE sounding thin and fatiguing. I liked the SR80i (and I understand why people love Grado sound), but these headphones were a harsh mistress. I felt that they were steering my musical tastes away from anything that had bass.
Then again I could turn this into a foray into orthos for a lot less as I see a HE-500 floating at HF for 500EUR (logistics included)... I wonder how that would tickle my fancy.
Thanks for answers everyone! Stay safe, if any of you happen to be in the windy side of states now.
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If you want a lambda that is not fatiguing, your best bet is probably either an LNS (Lambda Nova Signature) or an original standard-bias SR-Lambda. Unfortunately, I think all the new ones suffer from at least a small excess of energy up top.
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I can vouch for the 202 though having no brightness/harshness
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Ok, I'll see how it goes. Getting an ortho seems like the easy way out. These HE500 do measure good tho.
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Wow, the 404LE is a pleasant surprise. It's been a while since I've had a little Lambda shootout, but it may be time again as these could be contenders for top spot.
Compared to a pair of Lambda pros I was listening to earlier in the week they are a nice change. The nice little bump that fills out the bottom end makes these much more compatible with long listens.
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The 404LE is a nice improvement over the original 404. I'm pretty sure it started as a modified 404 for Airbow. Which makes me really curious about the newer Airbow SC21, as it's a modified 507. If they can improve the 507 like they did the 404, I think it would be worth checking out for stat enthusiasts.
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I keep looking at those SC21's and get tempted... I don't own the 507 but I've always liked them in the limited time I've spent with them.
The only thing that holds me back is the cost... PJ's got 'em at $909 right now. Still pretty steep for headphones I'm only gong to use a little... I need someone to take the plunge and tell they are great! hint, hint...
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(http://pix.toile-libre.org/upload/original/1418662977.jpg)
Received my 404 (not LE) and my SRM1/mkII yesterday. Listened to them for twenty minutes :
Listening Impressions:
Midrange shout is the most noticeable shortcoming. At least for me
This ! Overall not Bad at all but if I trust these early impressions, this SR404 can't really compete with my HD800.
This shouty midrange bothers me a bit. Moreover it worries me because it seems the Koss ESP950 seems to have the same kind of 2khz bump...
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I noticed that Marv heard some mid-range shout with the LE as well.... I'm not really noticing it with my pair. :-Z Maybe a little bit of a lift, but not a shout...
I've been listening to them at work regularly for the better part of two weeks now. They certainly benefitted by the introduction of the nice rich Fulla sound. The 252A is doing fine for them, but knowing how good they were from the BHSE I'm planning to drag one of my other amps into work; maybe the 717.
Did you really expect them to rival the HD-800?
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I noticed that Marv heard some mid-range shout with the LE as well.... I'm not really noticing it with my pair. :-Z Maybe a little bit of a lift, but not a shout...
I've been listening to them at work regularly for the better part of two weeks now. They certainly benefitted by the introduction of the nice rich Fulla sound. The 252A is doing fine for them, but knowing how good they were from the BHSE I'm planning to drag one of my other amps into work; maybe the 717.
Did you really expect them to rival the HD-800?
Yup you're right.. "shout" is a bit excessive but I think it's because I'm sensitive in this area and I think it's why I like the HD800 who has a dip in the 1-3 khz Area ;) . Matter of taste I presum.
I didn"t expect the 404 would rival the HD800 but from what I remember of my comparison between a SR303 and my HD800 last year, I thought they would have been closer but I hadn't my current rig yet and my ears are more experienced .
BTW , I need more time of listening to elaborate a fair opinion.
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I am quite sure there is a fair difference between the 404 and 404LE as well.
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I noticed that Marv heard some mid-range shout with the LE as well.... I'm not really noticing it with my pair. :-Z Maybe a little bit of a lift, but not a shout...
Yup you're right.. "shout" is a bit excessive but I think it's because I'm sensitive in this area and I think it's why I like the HD800 who has a dip in the 1-3 khz Area ;) . Matter of taste I presum.
There are a couple of factors that mitigate this: first, it's present in most stax cans - though to a much lesser degree in omegas; it's been part of the lambda sound since the beginning so if you like lambdas you've gotten used to it; finally it's not like the AKG 1-2khz shout, the 404LE still has very swift decay in that area. It's more noticeable over the long term, at least for me, in that lambdas tend to bring on listening fatigue faster than the omegas (which I can usually wear all day with no problem).
Which makes me really curious about the newer Airbow SC21, as it's a modified 507. If they can improve the 507 like they did the 404, I think it would be worth checking out for stat enthusiasts.
I really like even the stock 507, the SC21 does look tempting.
As for the sound differences between the 404/404LE, I think a large chunk of it is just the change in earpads. Then maybe binning on Stax's behalf.
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The 404LE is a nice improvement over the original 404. I'm pretty sure it started as a modified 404 for Airbow. Which makes me really curious about the newer Airbow SC21, as it's a modified 507. If they can improve the 507 like they did the 404, I think it would be worth checking out for stat enthusiasts.
According to this guy they are an improvement over the SR-507.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0jMEhz18Tk
'Better soundstage and 3-dimensionability, bigger bass, more musicality and taste'
We all know that you are going to buy it so don't procrastinate...
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There are a couple of factors that mitigate this: first, it's present in most stax cans - though to a much lesser degree in omegas; it's been part of the lambda sound since the beginning so if you like lambdas you've gotten used to it; finally it's not like the AKG 1-2khz shout, the 404LE still has very swift decay in that area. It's more noticeable over the long term, at least for me, in that lambdas tend to bring on listening fatigue faster than the omegas (which I can usually wear all day with no problem).
Two more hours of listening yesterday evening. I'm still a bit bothered by this mids. Overally, I really like this 404 but during my yesterday listening ( Norah Jones "The Fall" and Count Basie/Ray Charles "Ray Sings, Basie swings" ) I felt many time the need to lower the volume because of this feel of "shout". I ended to stay at lower volumes than usually with my HD800.
Overally, As long as I don't compare to the HD800, the SR404 is quite fine and enjoyable. Comfort is so-so too.
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It's more noticeable over the long term, at least for me, in that lambdas tend to bring on listening fatigue faster than the omegas (which I can usually wear all day with no problem).
This definitely reflects my experience with the Lambda line, but very much less so! Which leads me to wonder about the SC21.
I've accumulated enough pairs of Lamda pros that I think Icould sell a few off to fund the Airbow and still have some left. :)p12
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Decided to bring my Panormaic Earspeaker stash out of storage and do some direct comparisons. My absolute favorite Lambdas are still the original normal bias one and the Lambda Nova Signature. The SR-507 in comparison is a bit too forward sounding for me, with less of that spacious vapory sound I love in the Lambda range so much. The tonal balance on the original Lambdas is delicious IMO.
The Sigmas though are just on another planet. Some of my favorite Stax ever, but definitely on the weirder side. They have a nice musical quality that reminds me a bit of Final Audio's Piano Forte models, though not as bandwidth limited and liquid-y sounding.
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I want to play too! I'm going to break out the Nova Signatures.
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Definitive impressions on the Stax SR-404 "Signature" (not the LE)
- I used almost exclusively during 4 weeks while my HD800 was at colorware. . I never managed to forget the midrange shout. I really enjoyed the Speed and the overall clarity , but IMO this lambda sound unnatural. I had really good results with Electronic music where the speed really does wonders. I'm used to tight bass so I never felt those SR404 are so bass shy. that been said , those Stax definitely lacks of low mids and upper bass and the music seems to lack of foundation as if we listen too much harmonics and not enough foundamentals. The soundstage of the 404 is so-so too. not as good as what offers a Koss ESP 950. weak layering, upfront presentation. definitely so-so.
During the period I tried a SR307 and I much prefered the 404. the SR307 has less midrange shout but more sizzle in the treble. I didn't like it enough to use it more than a few minutes. I tried an old Lambda pro signature too and loved what I hear. Huge soundstage , more clarity , uber detailed. great. Very quick try though so I can say more.
The point is when the HD800 was back home, I almost immediately stopped to use the lambda. it took me 10 minutes to readjust to the sound of the HD800 and then I forgot it to enjoy my music.
Conclusion : walk the plank2 . i sold the complete Stax combo so I stop my Stat experiences for the time being. will try later when i'll have enough money to play with Omegas or a good opportunity for an old lambda : Lambda pro et LNS.