CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => Headphone Measurements => Topic started by: Marvey on May 29, 2012, 07:24:39 PM
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DT880-250 Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plots
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=312.0;attach=1415;image)
These don't sound too bad. Treble is a bit hot when volume is turned up though. Nothing EQ can't fix. Probably one of Beyer's best headphones. Looks like in some ways, Beyer has gone backwards with Tesla.
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Wow. These have a very interesting broad, short lived, well controlled resonance along the whole spectrum. I cant remember seeing that before. Kudos to Beyer.
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Yeah, I was wondering if purrin's program just cut these off at 1ms, but it doesn't look to be the case at all. Just a bit of energy from 5K to 10K that seems fairly benign. Way better-looking than the "good" T1 pair.
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I wonder how the 2003 version compares to these. Many people say that those are superior
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Those plots are clean, just like they sound. I'm not actually used to seeing that, after seeing so much triple penetrator, murder spikes of death, and Tesla's mountain ranges of doom. I did a double take at the graph, even.
I do like the DT880, it's pretty enjoyable to listen to quietly.
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I wonder what accounts for the cold tonality/ lack of warmth i remember with the DT880. Purrin did you notice that, aside from the treble emphasis? I heard them years ago.
Tthey look like they would have warmth looking at that gentle rise from 500 to 100 hz
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These had a hint of warmness. Note they are 250ohm, not the 80ohm, which I did not think sounded as good as these.
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There obviously are benefits of using some cup damping..
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You know, I've heard the DT880 as both full sounding, and freezing cold myself. Strange.
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Had the 600 ohm version. Somewhat thin vocals & the treble tilted balance make them sound a bit cold.
Pretty nice & clean sounding out of a tube amp .That treble does get irksome after sometime though.
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I think gear matters. I found the 250 harder to driver, but less picky than the HD800.
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Headroom's graphs show some significant higher order distortion which I think accounts for a lot for their cold sound, even after some EQ.
http://www.headphone.com/learning-center/build-a-graph.php?graphID[0]=963&graphID[1]=573&graphID[2]=&graphID[3]=&graphType=1&buttonSelection=Compare+Headphones
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Whoa. WTF. That looks nasty nasty for 500Hz.
(http://graphs.headphone.com/graphCompare.php?graphType=1&graphID[]=963)
Check out the T1 Testicla too. Just as nasty. Even more so.
(http://graphs.headphone.com/graphCompare.php?graphType=1&graphID[]=2033)
Maybe you've discovered what makes a lot of Beyers sound metallic and nasty.
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I just noticed it ate my link...
Anyway, sometimes I'm a little suspicious of those distortion plots. The HD650 for example is scary clean. I don't remember the midrange being that clean. Probably the cleanest on the whole graph generator. At least it was the last time I went though them all anyway.
OTOH some other ones match what I hear really well. The 770s and 990s have less overall distortion and the harmonics are lower order as well which matches with me liking them more than the 880s.
The AKGs don't come off so hot either but I think don't think the K601s sound as bad as that graph looks.
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Had the 600 ohm version. Somewhat thin vocals & the treble tilted balance make them sound a bit cold.
Pretty nice & clean sounding out of a tube amp .That treble does get irksome after sometime though.
This.
But, as my old ears don't extend to the high treble anyway, and both my DT880s are tube amped, it all works out.
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Is the distortion a tangible problem though? Headroom seem to have posted another graph, exactly the same labelling - assume it's another measurement of the 250 ohm...
(http://graphs.headphone.com/graphCompare.php?graphType=1&graphID[]=723)
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We see fairly evident higher order distortion (the low order stuff is typical). I suspect this is why some people don't like the treble rendering of the Beyers, i.e. "metallic" or whatever for lack of a better term. But other than that, it doesn't seem to be a problem.
I like the DT880 when EQ is applied to tone down the treble. It's actually smoother sounding than the T1. I do not like the T1 at all.
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Thanks for the reply, but I'm not entirely sure what is meant by low and high order. I understand that what they've done here is played a test tone and see what frequencies that are multiples of the test tone have been produced also, and that's called harmonic distortion, but not too sure on higher and lower. It all seems to be below 70db peak so I'd assume it's inaudible, or am I missing something?
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Higher order = the little distortion spikes in the treble. 4th, 5th, 6th, etc.
Possibly inaudible b/c -70db down. Hard to say tho. I never ran my own distortion tests on them.
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Higher order = the little distortion spikes in the treble. 4th, 5th, 6th, etc.
Possibly inaudible b/c -70db down. Hard to say tho. I never ran my own distortion tests on them.
Exactly,
Will elaborate on the plot.
The big one ar 0dB is a pure sinewave that SHOULD have little to no distortion but in any case should not have any harmonics at least not higher than say -120dB for THESE measurements.
The HP (or amplifier if a crappy one is used, but is unlikely) will add frequencies that are multiples of the one applied.
So say a 400Hz tone is applied (which is the first order) the 2nd order harmonics (that is thus a distortion from the original tone) is 800Hz, The third one (a higher order) 1200Hz.
Add 400Hz for each order.
Non-linear distortion can also have other frequencies popping up b.t.w.
higher order harmonics are thus higher frequencies and thus more to the right in the curve.
Thing is the lower the amplitude (-70 dB and -80 dB is already pretty low for a HP) the less audible.
Harmonics are present in any instrument and most of the natural sounds and are in most case higher than the ones generated by the HP.
Also the spectrum of music is rather wide and thus all those frequencies happening at the same time will add their own harmonics.
If there is too much of those and too high an amplitude this will affect the SQ.
a 'nice' distortion is when the amplitude gets lower at each higher order harmonic.
This seems to be the case as the FR plot shown only goes to 3kHz (and not 20kHz as in most plots)
Tube amps for instance in general have higher amplitude 2nd and 3rd order amplitudes BUT the amplitude drops fast when the frequency increases.
Most SS designs have lower amplitude harmonics (and less audible) BUT the amplitude of the highest order harmonics doesn't drop that much compared to the 2nd harmonic which is less desirable.
High amplitude harmonics generated by X CAN sound very pleasant (and thus is distortion but in practice a nice 'addition' to the signal) IF the higher harmonics get lower in amplitude fast.
This means amps with HIGH distortion figures but a fast decaying spectrum (higher order harmonics dropping fast in amplitude) may look bad but sound pleasant.
It is NOT more accurate sounding but more pleasant.
I agree about the audibility of harmonics (especially in music) when harmonics are below -80dB and lower in amplitude fast at each higher order.
Those harmonics will probably be 'masked' by higher amplitudes of harmonics present in music signals anyway.
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I recently sold my O2 and a Pico DAC to a friend of mine and he got a DT880-250 with it. I briefly listened to the rig and didn't find anything to be too wrong. The sound seemed really clean and there weren't any issues with bass that I found evident with the HD650. I can't say if that setup is really my cup of tea, but I'm known to like my tea supercharged with rum. I hope to swap headphones with him and hear how they sound with my D/AC-1600/Dynalo setup.
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Hi,
I recently bought these headphones (250 ohm Pro). Got them linked to a UCA202 with the output resistors shorted, and am using this EQ curve:
(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1797881/stuff.PNG)
Sounds wonderful, couldn't be happier. Thanks for all your help.
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I wonder how the 2003 version compares to these. Many people say that those are superior
I just picked up a 2003 version. Not sure how this process works, purrin, but if there is enough interest, I wouldn't mind sending them in for measurements.
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PM me if you want to send them to me. Always curious. I will cover return shipping.
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Right on. I just got them today, so I'm gonna play with my new toy a bit first. :)p5
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Too bad this thread started last year. I would be interested in seeing the waterfall plots of the DT880-250 with a 120ohm output. In general, I prefer Beyers with a higher output impedance. That includes the lower line DT440/DT660.
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curious to see the difference between the older and newer dt880s. I will watch this thread like a hawk
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Too bad this thread started last year. I would be interested in seeing the waterfall plots of the DT880-250 with a 120ohm output. In general, I prefer Beyers with a higher output impedance. That includes the lower line DT440/DT660.
i think it was you that first suggested i try adding an impedance dongle to the DT990 years ago. i did prefer them them with 110R output. i recently added a separate 100R jack on my B22 for my K701.
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Whoaaaaa. I just had my buddy give me his old DT770 silver velours (since he's hooked on the J$ pads right meow) and I put them on the DT880's and they are totally different pads. They feel the same, look the same, but the foam padding used on the old DT880 pads (as seen through the holes on the underside) is black while the new DT770 pads have a white. I didn't think anything of it until I started listening to a few tracks with the DT770 pads... The bass immediately goes through the roof and drowns out the midrange. Since I hadn't ever heard of Beyer making revisions on the pads, I started thinking I had some sort of software EQ on until I finally switched back to the stock pads and everything is back to normal. Is anyone aware of these differences? beyerdynamic-usa.com only carries one set of silver velour pads and they are the "EDT 990 V" while Amazon carries both the 990 and 770.
I guess my main question is if Beyer simply changed pads with the newer version of the DTXX0 series, or is there a EDT880 out there that I'm too dumb to find?
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i think it was you that first suggested i try adding an impedance dongle to the DT990 years ago. i did prefer them them with 110R output. i recently added a separate 100R jack on my B22 for my K701.
Yep, that was me.
Whoaaaaa. I just had my buddy give me his old DT770 silver velours (since he's hooked on the J$ pads right meow) and I put them on the DT880's and they are totally different pads. They feel the same, look the same, but the foam padding used on the old DT880 pads (as seen through the holes on the underside) is black while the new DT770 pads have a white. I didn't think anything of it until I started listening to a few tracks with the DT770 pads... The bass immediately goes through the roof and drowns out the midrange. Since I hadn't ever heard of Beyer making revisions on the pads, I started thinking I had some sort of software EQ on until I finally switched back to the stock pads and everything is back to normal. Is anyone aware of these differences? beyerdynamic-usa.com only carries one set of silver velour pads and they are the "EDT 990 V" while Amazon carries both the 990 and 770.
I guess my main question is if Beyer simply changed pads with the newer version of the DTXX0 series, or is there a EDT880 out there that I'm too dumb to find?
Well there are 2 different pads. 1 for the open/semi-open and another for the closed. I'll have to check my sets at home. I seem to recall my DT770s having no holes. I bought the black DT770 pads but do have the silver ones around still.
What's funny is I have the newer DT770s, I can't recall what year or if there is a version after that, with the solid black cups. They are bass light, and quite bright.
Anyhow. Silver DT770 pads. http://north-america.beyerdynamic.com/shop/hah/accessories/headphone-accessories/ohrmuschelsatz-1.html
DT880 and DT990 used the same pads, IIRC.
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Whoaaaaa. I just had my buddy give me his old DT770 silver velours (since he's hooked on the J$ pads right meow) and I put them on the DT880's and they are totally different pads. They feel the same, look the same, but the foam padding used on the old DT880 pads (as seen through the holes on the underside) is black while the new DT770 pads have a white. I didn't think anything of it until I started listening to a few tracks with the DT770 pads... The bass immediately goes through the roof and drowns out the midrange. Since I hadn't ever heard of Beyer making revisions on the pads, I started thinking I had some sort of software EQ on until I finally switched back to the stock pads and everything is back to normal. Is anyone aware of these differences? beyerdynamic-usa.com only carries one set of silver velour pads and they are the "EDT 990 V" while Amazon carries both the 990 and 770.
I guess my main question is if Beyer simply changed pads with the newer version of the DTXX0 series, or is there a EDT880 out there that I'm too dumb to find?
Well there are 2 different pads. 1 for the open/semi-open and another for the closed. I'll have to check my sets at home. I seem to recall my DT770s having no holes. I bought the black DT770 pads but do have the silver ones around still.
What's funny is I have the newer DT770s, I can't recall what year or if there is a version after that, with the solid black cups. They are bass light, and quite bright.
Anyhow. Silver DT770 pads. http://north-america.beyerdynamic.com/shop/hah/accessories/headphone-accessories/ohrmuschelsatz-1.html
DT880 and DT990 used the same pads, IIRC.
Ah, I see that now. If you click on "Accessories" you can find the 990 pads and if you click on "Headphone Accessories" you will find the 770 pads. I also see now that they specifically say to use the 990 pads for the 880, whoops. Danke.
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Don't use 880/990 pads on a 770 and vice versa.
They have closely the same appearance and size but sound (and measure) VASTLY different and I am talking 10dB+ in the lows.
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Did anyone notice the recently released Beyerdynamic A20 amp has a fairly high output impedance? Similar to the A1, the output impedance is over 100 ohms. I do wonder if Beyerdynamic intended for the 250 and 600 ohm headphones to be used with a higher output impedance source.
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Just got these off eBay (they seem to be going cheaply in the UK for some reason) -- DT880 250Ω [latest version].
Tried then on the E9, they noticeably have more bass and less treble on the 43Ω output (vs the 10Ω output). This happens on most cans I've tried, but on the DT880 it seems more pronounced. Thing is, it does sound more "natural" this way, the slight bass hump balances the hot treble better. To me it definitely seems Beyer tuned them for this.
There is some obscure audio standard for headphone output impedance that specifies 120Ω. Beyer amps follow this to the letter, and hearing this DT880 it does make me feel that they indeed tuned the headphones for 120Ω sources.
I'm tempted to get one of those ER-4P to ER-4S 75Ω adapters (assuming they're just a pair of resistors in series).
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I almost always use 100-120ohm outputs for my Beyer(s), all of them. DT440, DT660, DT770, DT990, and DT150. It's the only way I listen, IMO.
Some people hate it, so YMMV. Some people say it gets too flatulent.
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I have a 120ohm adapter, would that be approximately the same compared to plugging the cans in a 100+ ohm headphone jack? or would the 75 ohm adapter work better? How does it work, does the impedance adapter get added on to the current headphone jacks output impedance or does it work like adding an extra 120 ohms to the headphone itself ex 250 ohms become 370 ohms when adding that adapter...
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Adding series resistance increases the source output impedance. The 120ohm adapter adds to whatever your source output impedance.
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ahh thats cool. I tried using a tester with my 120 ohm adaptor and it gave me a reading of 25 on the x10. So 250 ohms? Is that because I am hitting two things inside the jack and the tip on the other side?
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Try testing each channel separately. Assuming this is a TRS jack, the tip is the left channel and the middle ring is the right channel. To test the resistance, you need to connect the multi-meter to each side of the adapter, one channel at a time. If the adapter is well made, the resistance should match or very close at least.
I made a 100 ohm adapter awhile back to test on the akg k701. I'm curious how the dt880-250 will sound with the increased impedance. I'll test this out next time I get a chance.
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The thing is I can't see what part of the TR or S I am touching inside at the other end. I dont have a cable I can use at the moment LOL
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These had a hint of warmness. Note they are 250ohm, not the 80ohm, which I did not think sounded as good as these.
80 ohm?
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FSI might get interested, headroom and innerfidelity have measured distortion differently. probably beyer improved drivers in late production or headroom messed up something. I traded DT880 600 ohm recently and definitely not hearing any obvious big flaw. Bass is cleaner compared to HD650 however fairly bright but very clean sounding overall.
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/BeyerdynamicDT880600ohm.pdf
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/BeyerdynamicDT880250ohm.pdf
http://www.headphone.com/buildAGraph.php?graphID[0]=2751&graphID[1]=963&graphID[2]=&graphID[3]=&scale=30&graphType=1&buttonSelection=Update+Graph
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Hey guys,
Thanks for the measurement. I'm considering these or the Hifiman HE-400. I'm leaning towards the HE-400 more but would this DT880 be considered more detailed and clean sounding than the HE-400? Additionally, I'm quite worried that the midrange of DT880 is too sucked out or boring than I'd like.
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I feel the midrange on the HE400 is kind messy. The DT880 is cleaner there and has better tonal balance all around, despite the extra bit of brightness. Get the 600 ohm if your amp isn't wimpy.
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I feel the midrange on the HE400 is kind messy.
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It depends upon what you are looking for. I like Greed's use of the word "messy" since I haven't found a good way to describe it yet. However, some people tend to hear this messy midrange more than others. A direct comparison makes it obvious in any case.
If the DT880 is too hot in the mid-treble, just put some tissue paper or felt pads over the driver, or use EQ. The HE-400 are bassy, recessed in the upper mids (guitars and trumpets can sometimes lack bite) with a lot of mid and high treble. The Jerg pads do help make the HE-400 more cohesive sounding, fixing the overly laid back upper mids somewhat.
The classic DT800 (250 or 600 ohm) versions are very very good headphones, but don't have bass quality (extension and speed) which is as good the HE-400. Do not get the 80 ohm version of the DT880.
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Hey guys,
Thanks for the measurement. I'm considering these or the Hifiman HE-400. I'm leaning towards the HE-400 more but would this DT880 be considered more detailed and clean sounding than the HE-400? Additionally, I'm quite worried that the midrange of DT880 is too sucked out or boring than I'd like.
The DT880 midrange is not sucked out to my ears. I don't know where that impression came from, but I've heard it a lot. It seems like one person said it and then it spread rampantly like wildfire from there. I have the 250 ohms...
Wish I'd heard the 400s to offer a comparison.
What headphones are you coming from?
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Hey guys,
Thanks for the measurement. I'm considering these or the Hifiman HE-400. I'm leaning towards the HE-400 more but would this DT880 be considered more detailed and clean sounding than the HE-400? Additionally, I'm quite worried that the midrange of DT880 is too sucked out or boring than I'd like.
The DT880 midrange is not sucked out to my ears. I don't know where that impression came from, but I've heard it a lot. It seems like one person said it and then it spread rampantly like wildfire from there. I have the 250 ohms...
Wish I'd heard the 400s to offer a comparison.
What headphones are you coming from?
I'm of a consistent mindset. Perhaps the slightly colder tilt of the DT 880 may have distracted a particularly sensationalistic individual from a rather decent midrange presentation.
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the DT880-600 had a real midrange suckout for me. vocals sounded so distant... using my Gamma2->CKKIII setup. I have not heard the 250 Ohm version but I doubt they are all that different?
it wasn't just 'a little' so I'm a bit unsure what may have happened here :( quite alright headphone but just lacking any sort of intimate vocal presentation that I like.
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the DT880-600 had a real midrange suckout for me. vocals sounded so distant... using my Gamma2->CKKIII setup. I have not heard the 250 Ohm version but I doubt they are all that different?
it wasn't just 'a little' so I'm a bit unsure what may have happened here :( quite alright headphone but just lacking any sort of intimate vocal presentation that I like.
The overall presentation isn't the most intimate, but it's all relative.
Compared to the HE-500 I auditioned recently, the 880s feel tinny and small and distant. However, when I switched back and forth between the two, I felt the vocals were pretty similar. It was the rest of the sound signature that set them apart.
Compared to the SRH940 I used to own, the 880s feel like the deepest, warmest, most intimate headphone you'll ever own :P
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Wow thanks for all the replies.
If it helps, I would be amping both using a tube amp, but not the expensive ones. Say just the littledot mk3 or hifiman ef2a. In regards to the DT 880, would that somehow make them more intimate-sounding? I guess I should add that if it sounds tinny in the same way as Etymotic HF5 or ER4, then I don't mind since I like those IEM a lot.
Honestly for HE-400, I'm just intrigued in being able to own one (i.e planar type). If it's not any different than DT 880 on areas where its supposed to be unique (well i don't know what that means really), then I'm strongly leaning towards the Beyers..
Or throw in any other suggestions or comments if you want to. :-)