CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => Head Amps, DACs, Sources, Portable Equipment Discussion => Topic started by: Marvey on August 22, 2015, 06:02:16 PM
-
Getting asked too much about this. Some quick notes. That's all you guys get for now.
- Ah man, multi-bit Gungnir is too good. Seems to warm up faster than Yggy. In technicalities, not as strong in the bass, not as deep in the stage, not as much sense of venue/space, a bit more blurry with the notes. But who the fuck cares when it brings me tears.
- Still listening, geez. holy crap. In a way, Gungnir is more "euphonic" because it's not so clean - hides deficiencies of recordings. Oh man oh man. This is just jaw dropping good.
- At the meet and on initial turn-on, I thought I heard these strange vestiges of the D-S Gungnir's power supply. Isn't it funny how that happens? It was like a strange hybrid of old and new Gungnir. Tonight, the ghost of the old D-S Gungnir's power supply is totally gone. The magic is on.
- Gungnir = 90% of Yggy. Closer with Wyrd - more focused.
Now taking questions.
-
yggy + rggy + wyrd
vs
Mjol2 (stock real tubes and upgraded tubes) + gunnymb +wyrd
with hd650 and hd800
-
Rag > Mojo 2. More microdetail and microdynamics. However, some might prefer Mojo 2's warmth with tubes, in that case, no need to get anything better than Gumby. Gumby actually exceeds what Mojo 2 is capable of. And Yggy exceeds what Rag is capable of.
I run Yggy with uber tube amps. I run Gumby with Rag. That being said, Yggy is still better. Just differences will not be as obvious on lesser amplification. There's always a sweet spot.
-
did u get my pm purin?
-
My Gungnir MB comes either today or Monday. I'll put it through it's paces with CEE TEE's modded ZD proto > HD600 and $100 crown amp > Philharmonic BMR monitors. I suspect I will be happy :)
-
- Gungnir = 90% of Yggy. Closer with Wyrd - more focused.
Aw man, your sycophants are going to run rampant with that kind of talk. That said, I'm already enjoying my Gumby.
I take it you'll update your DAC Chart after the main review.
-
You make my wallet bleed in anticipation of destruction. Sadly, the most I'll probably ever own would be something like Bitfrost > Lyr 2.
The best I have right now is ODAC revB > Vorzuge VorzAMP Duo.
-
What really surprised me was the number of people who made the HUGE leap to the Yggy from modest DACs. I thought most would wait for Gumby since Gumby was hinted at so much, even from the man (Moffat) himself.
-
What really surprised me was the number of people who made the HUGE leap to the Yggy from modest DACs. I thought most would wait for Gumby since Gumby was hinted at so much, even from the man (Moffat) himself.
I was one of those people. I upgraded from the parasound d/ac-1100 and the DS gungnir. It was a dramatic upgrade even when using the valhalla 2/hd650 and my overnight sensations. Perhaps my setup didn't really need that last 10% of performance, or isn't resolving enough to take advantage of it. Hard to say without upgrading my gungnir first.
There's a tinge of remorse that I didn't wait for the gumby. Yes, you and Hans did hint at the upg coming soon but I was a bit impatient. But hey, at least I don't have to worry about my dac being the limiting factor in the future! Any others who bought the yggy and feel the same way?
-
Better to get to the light at the end of the tunnel than to keep staring at it.
-
I jumped from the D/S Gungnir to the Yggy and have not looked back. Even to my untrained ears, the pick up in detail and overall SQ make a step back to the Gumby unappealing. I will need to rebuild the war chest but any back up to the Yggy is another Yggy, thank you very much.
-
Love the Gungnir Multi Bits new nick name... "Gumby" :)p13
-
Derail a bit, Merv, any Mjonir 2 (LISST) vs Black Widow contest?
-
No comment for obvious reasons.
-
I am hearing rag beats mjlonir 2. I am pretty confident BW beats rag in most headphones only situations. I'd take the BW unless you want an epic fucking speaker amp or are powering IEMs also (I preferred my UERM balanced out of Rag vs BW).
-
Yggy is the only DAC I've heard where my heart sometimes skips a beat and I frantically spin my head around because I think someone is breaking into my apartment. It always (and let's keep it that way) ends up being a sound from the recording that I'm either hearing for the first time, or is so 3D that I think it's happening "outside" of the headphone. Really sends shivers down your spine.
Half of me wants to pocket the $1000 difference between the Gumby and Yggy, but the the potential of losing that effect has kept me from pulling the trigger on the Gumby. If the Gumby can replicate that, we've got something really interesting on our hands..
-
Yggy is the only DAC I've heard where my heart sometimes skips a beat and I frantically spin my head around because I think someone is breaking into my apartment. It always (and let's keep it that way) ends up being a sound from the recording that I'm either hearing for the first time, or is so 3D that I think it's happening "outside" of the headphone. Really sends shivers down your spine.
Half of me wants to pocket the $1000 difference between the Gumby and Yggy, but the the potential of losing that effect has kept me from pulling the trigger on the Gumby. If the Gumby can replicate that, we've got something really interesting on our hands..
Listening to my very familiar old tunes that I have listened for 10-15years and hearing new spacial cues and micro-details, much higher levels of peak transients on the Ygg that I have never heard before on any other DAC is quite a spooky thing. Even AAC and Mp3 contain so much "new" information that I never knew was there before.
-
What really surprised me was the number of people who made the HUGE leap to the Yggy from modest DACs. I thought most would wait for Gumby since Gumby was hinted at so much, even from the man (Moffat) himself.
We can only blame you and your excellent thread (now closed) at head-fi! What did you expect for E+ rating...
-
We can only blame you and your excellent thread (now closed) at head-fi! What did you expect for E+ rating...
Not really. Stillheart knows all. "Death to purrin's sycophants!" (http://www.head-fi.org/t/759872/new-audio-gd-dac-19-10th-anniversary-edition/615#post_11855398)
-
We can only blame you and your excellent thread (now closed) at head-fi! What did you expect for E+ rating...
Well shit. It was the best darn thing I'd heard in all aspects until fairly recently.
-
Not really. Stillheart knows all. "Death to purrin's sycophants!" (http://www.head-fi.org/t/759872/new-audio-gd-dac-19-10th-anniversary-edition/615#post_11855398)
How little he knows. You guys do realize that I use this dome in camp Pendleton to control your minds.
(http://cdn.sandiegouniontrib.com/img/photos/2012/07/21/500b2a65b2e57.hires_t837.jpg?5df2a6e0ac564ff4ddc2702f3c8561935b88c24b)
-
Well shit. It was the best darn thing I'd heard in all aspects until fairly recently.
WTF, Yggy is not on the top of your list now??? What has toppled the Yggy from its pedestal?
-
WTF, Yggy is not on the top of your list now??? What has toppled the Yggy from its pedestal?
Vinyl
-
Vinyl
Ha! New customers for TTVJ! ☺
-
Ha! New customers for TTVJ! ☺
Once again a reminder that when you think you've reached your end-game, there is no end-game... (sigh)
-
run us through your vinyl rig marv?
-
run us through your vinyl rig marv?
http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2725.0.html
-
Vinyl
Having mastered vinyl, that knocks down my mental impression of Yggy (which I have not heard) a notch.
Having spent a lifetime fussing with table/arm/cartridge adjustments, record cleaning, and the worst part - endless variations between pressings of a particular title - I've lost interest.
J. Gordon Holt once told me (rough quote): "The quality of the performance is inversely proportional to the quality of the recording."
My corollary is "The quality of the performance is inversely proportional to the quality of vinyl available in that year."
I stopped doing vinyl because some of my favorite albums were released during periods of a shortage of vinyl, when records were melted down with labels still on them...
-
Having mastered vinyl, that knocks down my mental impression of Yggy (which I have not heard) a notch.
Having spent a lifetime fussing with table/arm/cartridge adjustments, record cleaning, and the worst part - endless variations between pressings of a particular title - I've lost interest.
J. Gordon Holt once told me (rough quote): "The quality of the performance is inversely proportional to the quality of the recording."
My corollary is "The quality of the performance is inversely proportional to the quality of vinyl available in that year."
I stopped doing vinyl because some of my favorite albums were released during periods of a shortage of vinyl, when records were melted down with labels still on them...
Talk about correlation without causation. ::)
How about something more constructive like comparing your best possible sonic experience using vinyl versus the best digital experience you've had so we can get a mental impression of what it is you are actually talking about. Feel free to use names and specifics.
-
You're clearly not familiar with mastering vinyl.
It involves comparing the input to the lathe with the eventual vinyl playback.
The output of the process is colored relative to the input, so vinyl is not a good reference.
But most of my post is just saying that vinyl is no general solution because most pressings are crap. (The ones that are not crap, i.e. the "180gram" blah blah, are done from master tapes that are old and faded)
So, if you want to listen to a particular album, it may not have a good vinyl copy, or it may take you $500 and several weeks to get one.
-
More non specific jibber jabber and gross generalities. How much digital output content is colored relative to the input these days? facepalm
I'm still waiting for you to link how making modern pressings in vinyl equates to the Yggy not sounding as good as you thought it would in your imagination. What sort of dissonant thought process are you trying to invoke exactly? If its that a pristine digital master played through yggy isn't as good or better as the same on a bad vinyl pressing then where the hell did you see anybody say that? What a random injection of bias on your part.
Btw, most of the albums on Dr. Loudness would disagree with you about which format has the superior dynamic range closer to the original input.
Before you respond to this post, try responding to my last one first. Your random vinyl stream of consciousness is quite OT and nonsensical atm. You have presented no logical link to what you are spouting in relation to the actual thread topic.
-
I didn't bring up vinyl.
2nd restatement. If Yggy is not better than vinyl, then it is not as good as I imagined it might be (from reading reviews).
This is disappointing because vinyl is an impractical listening method - and - ironically - more so in 2015 than in 1975.
(OT comment - a lot of things are trendy these days as a reaction to the conventional. Analog watches, shoestrings, vinyl, and mono. The number of albums where the artists and primary engineers were involved with the mono mix and not the stereo mix, is much smaller than the number of mono re-releases in 2013-2015... and even in those cases, the unapproved stereo mixes still sound better IMHO).
-
2nd restatement. If Yggy is not better than vinyl, then it is not as good as I imagined it might be (from reading reviews).
3rd restatement. Your statement makes no sense and you've provided little if anything for any literate person to get an idea of wtf you are even getting at.
Who said Yggy was better than the best vinyl? What digital implementation do you know that sounds better than the best vinyl? Why do you let your imagination run wild when reading reviews? Maybe Yggy is 'better' than vinyl since you don't have to dunk it in a sonic tank? Maybe just listen to music through your phone then?
/shrug
-
But most of my post is just saying that vinyl is no general solution because most pressings are crap. (The ones that are not crap, i.e. the "180gram" blah blah, are done from master tapes that are old and faded)
So, if you want to listen to a particular album, it may not have a good vinyl copy, or it may take you $500 and several weeks to get one.
Define "most." Some of the best pressed vinyl I've got was done fairly recently. Double LP releases are also far more common now than they used to be, when the order of the day was to just shove 55+ minutes on a single 33 because "good enough." The weight of the record has absolutely no bearing on pressing quality. '60s records tended to be pretty heavy, in the '70s and early '80s records were pretty light and floppy (130-150g or so), and now its fashionable for them to be heavy again. I've got some 200g vinyl, it's not any better than any of my other vinyl.
Re-pressings are often worse than originals, that's true. The exact same is true for remastered CDs. Most remastered CDs are trash, and the labels that are putting in the effort, like AP's SACD Blue Note reissues, are coming from the exact same tired, worn tapes as their double 45s.
When it comes to what I listen to, in almost every single case, the vinyl is better than any digital format available, "HD" or otherwise. Stones and The Who? Vinyls better. Doors? Vinyl. Black Sabbath? Vinyl. You ain't heard "Paranoid" until you've heard the original '74 Quadraphonic. The DTS surround DVD they made out of the old Quad mix a few years back doesn't even get in the ballpark. '80s Metallica? Vinyl. '90s Pearl Jam? Vinyl. Etc etc etc.
-
So, what media is and was used to store audio masters?
I'm honestly starting to read on this. Wikipedia says that up till the 90's it was all done in tape. These days seems to be done in hard drives and/or digital tape. Is this correct?
Also found this interesting:
http://www.audioholics.com/editorials/analog-vinyl-vs-digital-audio
It seems in listenting tests Vinyl had the upper hand. The folks there reasoned that this was not due to the medium, as the writers of the article feel digital media is superior. Instead, it is argued that more care is taken into making Vinyl recordings vs digital recordings (factors being avoiding dynamic range compression and perhaps other stuff to minimize damage to the stylus) with end results indeed favoring Vinyl.
Anyhow. My question still remains though. What is/was the media used to store audio masters?
-
Please correct me if I am wrong but I think current day masters are delivered at 24/96 although editing may take place at higher sample rates and the mastering facility may keep an "in house" master at the higher rate. There are also all analog (AAA) re-issues being done as well for the vinyl market which go to tape. A recent high profile example is the Beatles box set but there are plenty more.
(From experience) The quality of modern vinyl pressed in the top facilities (Pallas, Optimal, QRP etc...) is really good. Flat discs, centered pressings, little to no surface noise. I know for example QRP has put a lot of effort into adding computer control systems to their old presses to ensure a high level of consistency in the results. I'm sure the other plants have similar systems in place.
-
For material where the source wasn't digital (i.e. from tape), it does need an A-D conversion and then a D-A conversion before we can listen to it. Depending upon who or what you believe, and the quality of the equipment, these kinds of conversions can be detrimental to sound quality. There was more care in audio engineering (including mastering) in the "olden days" (as my kids put it -- watch the movie Studio City) and even today, mastering engineers working on vinyl have more freedom to do it correctly.
I tend to buy the same album (if I like it) several times. I don't worry about pressings. The Talking Heads Little Creatures that I bought (again) for $2.99 from Streetlight Records in San Jose 15 years ago sounds better* on the VPI Classic / Ortofon Black / TC-750 w/ AMB Sigma 11 than the 2007 CD (one of those rare good remasters) from Theta Data III / Yggdrasil. The self-titled Whitney Houston album that I originally purchased had it's moments of glory, alas, that record was run into shit by my friends and I during the 80s.
*Someone here said Yggdrasil was 350% better than the typical DS DAC. Using the 350% as a reference, I'd say my current vinyl setup is 700% better** than the Yggdrasil. This is assuming you can deal with pops, clicks, and surface noise; getting off your ass to flip the record; and not have ADD where you can listen diligently and sit through an entire album. Most people can't deal with that today, so the best option would be digital.
**More dynamic, more resolving, more realistic, more immediate, more palpable, richer timbres, deeper tones. Think of it as taking the best qualities of each and every the DAC you've ever heard in your life. Increase those qualities 10-33% on top of that, and then add pops, clicks, and surface noise.
Anyways, lets get back to Gumby. I'll be starting another thread more related to this off-topic.
-
Anyhow. My question still remains though. What is/was the media used to store audio masters?
Until around 1980, recording were usually done to multi-track analog master tapes, and then mixed down to stereo two track analog master tapes.
When mastering to vinyl, the two track analog master tape would be RIAA EQ-ed to another two-track analog master tape that would be used to cut the vinyl master.
Around 1980, some studios changed to using digital U-matic videotapes as the master tape.
You ain't heard "Paranoid" until you've heard the original '74 Quadraphonic.
I have not done a rigorous comparison, but I do like the SHM-SACD's of early Sabbath. Generally, I use "Vol. 4" as the test. "In spite of all the arsing around, musically those few weeks in Bel Air were the strongest we'd ever been"-Ozzy.
-
I have not done a rigorous comparison, but I do like the SHM-SACD's of early Sabbath. Generally, I use "Vol. 4" as the test. "In spite of all the arsing around, musically those few weeks in Bel Air were the strongest we'd ever been"-Ozzy.
They're ok. The Quad mix was magic, though. The album was specially mixed specifically for that release, and it was the only Sabbath album ever to be done that way. Quadraphonic records were pretty much a bust. The mix and master of that '74 Quad is incredible, even played back in stereo. For the SACD they used the stereo mix, but they did port the Quad mix to a 4-channel 24/96 DVD-A release. It allows you to get some idea of what the vinyl is like, but that's all.
https://youtu.be/8yuHoNDUNCs (https://youtu.be/8yuHoNDUNCs)
-
Analog watches, shoestrings, vinyl, and mono.
Enough OT bullshit about vinyl, can we please circle back to when shoestrings stopped being popular?
-
Or when shoestrings go untied a la Kwame.
(http://cdn.solecollector.com/media/up/2015/07/images/kanye-west-caitlyn-jenner-adidas-ultra-boost-1.jpg)
-
This is assuming you can deal with pops, clicks, and surface noise; getting off your ass to flip the record; and not have ADD where you can listen diligently and sit through an entire album.
Playing single tracks is not a problem, so long as one has a steady hand or an arm-lifting lever. Most of the new converts to vinyl tend to forget that it was once all we had and we lived with it.
Getting up to take the clicking stylus off the record, at the end, is, without a sem-auto deck, one of the biggest pains of record playing.* It disturbs the meditational, music-induced trance.
*Actually, I don't like calling it "vinyl," even though it is. To me, they are still records, LPs, etc. I don't refer to CDs by the name of whatever plastic they are made of --- and my music-listening life actually started on shellac.
-
The thread title mentions "gumby"...
(http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ljzcgrDjSc1qiobi1o1_500.jpg)
-
Enough OT bullshit about vinyl, can we please circle back to when shoestrings stopped being popular?
Clearly, Ken thinks velcro shoes are the future.
-
The thread title mentions "gumby"...
(http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ljzcgrDjSc1qiobi1o1_500.jpg)
Or this one...
(http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/gumby/images/4/46/Gumby-lg.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130526221256)
-
Or this one...
(http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/gumby/images/4/46/Gumby-lg.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130526221256)
Or (close enough)
(http://31.media.tumblr.com/28f16a839786630cc7839dd72b95ce65/tumblr_mfts8qn1YW1qh59n0o2_250.gif)
Gummy Schiit
-
The beauty of multiple bits...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7Ixe95CZOE&ab_channel=mush01
-
So I wanted to follow up with something Merv said earlier (I think in this thread as well as others): that the muledeer2 actually held gumby back when compared to ragnarok (which in turn holds back yggy). I wonder if that applies to "lesser" amps as well, such as the valhalla2 (or various garage 1217 offerings), which kicks serious ass at its price point: would using gumby with valhalla2 be a waste of gumby?
But back to the matter at hand:
Clearly, Ken thinks velcro shoes are the future.
Or is he implying that society thought they were the future in the 80's & 90's and the sudden surge in shoestring sales is really just a hipster longing for "simpler times"? Either way, who the fuck calls shoelaces "shoestrings"?
-
Love the Gungnir Multi Bits new nick name... "Gumby"
I'm waiting for the BifrostMB (the Bimbo?)
-
or frostbit(e) :)p13
-
or frostbit(e) :)p13
It needs to be called Fimbulwinter... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fimbulwinter
-
Yggy= Bruce Lee
Gumby=Chuck Norris
Redacted2=Steven Segal
:)p13
-
Guys, sorry for my ignorance: what is the redacted and redated2 in the table ?
:-[
-
Guys, sorry for my ignorance: what is the redacted and redated2 in the table ?
:-[
Redacted=Gumby
Redacted2= multibit bifrost
-
Wait, I own a Bifrost. Is this a thread I should be paying attention to?
-
Wait, I own a Bifrost. Is this a thread I should be paying attention to?
It's rumored that Schiit has a multi-bit Bifrost coming out pretty soon. I would keep an eye out for Schiit announcements, in case the existing Bifrosts are upgradeable.
-
Not until next year at least.
-
Not until next year at least.
Aw crap, I did not know that. Is that straight from the horse's (Jason's) mouth?
-
Not until next year at least.
don't agree with "next year" based on the timeline I've heard.
just sayin- nothing is gospel. or concrete.
-
I like you guys are already naming a future product :) I like the sound of bimby...
-
don't agree with "next year" based on the timeline I've heard.
just sayin- nothing is gospel. or concrete.
Mike did hint at it in the story thread but said it might come early. No promises.
-
Mike did hint at it in the story thread but said it might come early. No promises.
He says spring would be optimistic:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/701900/schiit-happened-the-story-of-the-worlds-most-improbable-start-up/7470#post_11861987
-
Won't we just call the multibit Bitfrost the Multibitfrost?
-
So I wanted to follow up with something Merv said earlier (I think in this thread as well as others): that the muledeer2 actually held gumby back when compared to ragnarok (which in turn holds back yggy). I wonder if that applies to "lesser" amps as well, such as the valhalla2 (or various garage 1217 offerings), which kicks serious ass at its price point: would using gumby with valhalla2 be a waste of gumby?
Valhalla 2 should work well with Gumby and not be a waste. Would be interesting to put Val 2 along with Mojo 2. The thing about Val 2 is that it works best with higher Z headphones like the HD650 or HD800. Also, Val 2 is typically not as warm as Mojo 2 - depends upon tubes.
--
Forgot to mention, but Gumby does need warm-up like Yggy. Takes less than one day, maybe 12 hours to not sound nasty /bright. 2-3 days to reach the sweet spot.
-
Valhalla 2 should work well with Gumby and not be a waste. Would be interesting to put Val 2 along with Mojo 2. The thing about Val 2 is that it works best with higher Z headphones like the HD650 or HD800. Also, Val 2 is typically not as warm as Mojo 2 - depends upon tubes.
--
Forgot to mention, but Gumby does need warm-up like Yggy. Takes less than one day, maybe 12 hours to not sound nasty /bright. 2-3 days to reach the sweet spot.
-
Warm up as in physical exercise? Sunlight? A march to process all the bits and bobs for post-processing until the brain hurts? I cannot resist...
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3672/9714782018_a087595a7e_z.jpg)
-
Merv, this is the OCD side of me.... by warm-up do you mean x hours of feeding (any) DAC a digital signal or just powering it up and playing it when you can...thanks
-
I left it on. Might be faster if you exercise the chip.
(https://40.media.tumblr.com/7fc1285045d71b2b68959c51784d1bf7/tumblr_njkbalCcuf1qem99po1_1280.jpg)
-
Gungnir is more "euphonic" because it's not so clean - hides deficiencies of recordings. Oh man oh man. This is just jaw dropping good.
Awesome! it looks like i don't need to go that far to yggy at all , i've got a lot of crappy modern j-pop stuffs so that parts sounds like the best choice for me.
-
I left it on. Might be faster if you exercise the chip.
At the time Yggdrasil was on my table for a loan I challenged the virtues or drawbacks of warm up of the unit. In my trial, the power on for a week vs power off for a day didn't make a difference. While music playback for a week vs cold start was notably different. Highs were harsher and slight grain was present while cold only vs the same unit being worked in.
-
Maybe pink noise might help with burning the Yggdrasil at a faster rate?
-
My understanding of the whole warm-up thing for multibit dacs is that the dac chips need to be at full and stable temp, because even minute changes in temp effect their output, especially in the higher bits. I wouldn't think running signal through them would warm them up any faster, would it?
-
Audio quest did a white paper on dac warmup:
http://www.audioquest.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Phase-Noise-Jitter-Report-0317-14.pdf
-
Lol white paper? More like toilet paper
Audioquest is the biggest joke in audio.
Their "whitepaper" on computer audio was hilarious. They said the faster your hdd the better the music sounds :)p13
-
I wouldn't think running signal through them would warm them up any faster, would it?
Signal means current--> current means heat.
Though in some cases other devs under the hood such as psu can be of greater importance in heat generation. Dunno if Yggs uses shunt psu devices, some of my own units that do have so much heat transferred from psu-s that the other components heat production is dwarfed in comparison.
-
Yeah, fair enough. I would think the heat from the PSU has a much greater effect, as does nesting above/below a ragnarok or similar hot-plate. I suppose every little bit helps.
-
Valhalla 2 should work well with Gumby and not be a waste. Would be interesting to put Val 2 along with Mojo 2. The thing about Val 2 is that it works best with higher Z headphones like the HD650 or HD800. Also, Val 2 is typically not as warm as Mojo 2 - depends upon tubes.
Thanks for this info Marv.. I might be getting the HD800 again sometime and will probably grab a Valhalla 2 (again) to pair with it. My first time around with the V2 was good.. but it didn't have the staying value I hoped it would have (though my DAC at the time probably didn't show what it was really capable of.. GO450). Hearing that the V2 won't gimp the gumby is encouraging.
Some Gumby owners over at HF who've had it running for a good 100+ hrs. mentioned it lost some of its 'mellow character' (heard after the first 24 hrs of use) after 100+ hrs. They mentioned it was more 'solid-state' sounding (or something like that) and less liquid/warm.. any truth to this?
-
Quote from: EraserXIV on August 22, 2015, 08:09:39 PM
Yggy is the only DAC I've heard where my heart sometimes skips a beat and I frantically spin my head around because I think someone is breaking into my apartment. It always (and let's keep it that way) ends up being a sound from the recording that I'm either hearing for the first time, or is so 3D that I think it's happening "outside" of the headphone. Really sends shivers down your spine.
Half of me wants to pocket the $1000 difference between the Gumby and Yggy, but the the potential of losing that effect has kept me from pulling the trigger on the Gumby. If the Gumby can replicate that, we've got something really interesting on our hands..
Listening to my very familiar old tunes that I have listened for 10-15years and hearing new spacial cues and micro-details, much higher levels of peak transients on the Ygg that I have never heard before on any other DAC is quite a spooky thing. Even AAC and Mp3 contain so much "new" information that I never knew was there before.
I haven't been active on the boards of late thanks to project workloads, but when I do get a few spare moments to myself, I marvel at the yggdrasil ZDSE HD800 creating experiences much as those described above. The sense of dimension, depth and yet maintaining delicacy in delivery of the music is amazing. I have a large library which I am once again re-exploring while adding new material all the time. Recordings from Columbia 30th st studio are particularly blessed with low level auditory cues that I have never experienced before the yggdrasil. The Gungnir Multibit is on my radar for a travel DAC while Yggdrasil will be dedicated to the acoustic lab.
-
Initial thoughts from me, having just listened to my first 4-5 songs with the MB Gungnir, feeding the original EC Zana Deux and HD-650's. I'm posting from my perspective, so please take all of these thoughts as completely subjective. I am also open to further discussion as well... I have a way of sometimes coming across as excited, so please feel free to call me out if you feel differently about any of my thoughts. No offense will be taken.
So the Yggy really blew me away with its presentation of details, and the very precise sounding treble response. For me, hearing an overall clarity as far as cymbals and percussion were concerned with the Yggy was a revelation. It removed a layer of garbage that always existed in digital music. I believe it was most evident in the treble, and I previously felt that vinyl was superior because it didn't seem to contain this garbage. Compression, crunch, sometimes a general glare or brightness... the difference between a hi-hat sounding natural, or a hi-hat coming off as something else. (A recording of a hi-hat that just wasn't the same as hearing one in person.)
Playing music on my computer, I was aware of the treble issue for myself, and it actually steered me towards tube gear. I found that tubes didn't remove the layer of garbage, but somehow brought out a bit more layers of sonic depth that helped to mask the issue with DACs. I also tried other DACs, and found that some tended to sound more laid-back, perhaps rolling off the treble, or not emphasizing it as much as more revealing DACs. The more detail oriented DACs (or more revealing ones) tended to really bring out the crunchy garbage, or glare. At best, they allowed me to understand/appreciate some of the lower level details I never heard in recordings... at worst, they just encouraged me to spend more money on vinyl.
The detail presentation of the Yggy is also a night/day difference from a lot of other DACs, though. The details are entirely present, in an audibly more correct, insightful way, while still retaining overall musicality. The Yggy is precise without sounding like it's doing something wrong to bring out the details. This was also huge for me. I heard nuances, spatial queues, and actual music, without distraction of wondering how. When I hear the Yggy, it sounds me like I am hearing what is there naturally; timbre, body and tonality without any kind of weird, exaggerated crap.
I also found the Yggy to do something with dynamic range that also kind of blew my mind. I never really understood how this could be done, but my understanding is that I'm hearing an expanded range of volume, revealing much more nuanced information than before. It's revealing nuances in how instruments are being played, how singers are forming their words, and it changes the presentation of the song in a way that captures atmosphere unbelievably well. I've heard tubes that can pull of a more "musical" sounding presentation, which is somewhat of a subjective term, but this is different. It's extra information in the form of an expanded range of volume, or dynamics... that is the way that I can best describe it.
Going to the MB Gungnir. Mine has been powered up for 170 hours, and I now have about an hour of personal listening...
I am hearing a very even keeled, smooth sound. The Zana Deux is hitting the 650's hard. I hadn't spent a lot of time with the Gungnir before the upgrade, but it seems to me that this was characteristic of the Gungnir before the upgrade? It seems to have more punch than I'm used to... yet it also sounds very refined and elegant at the same time. The 650's are really in another world for me as far as overall clarity and resolution is concerned. It's nice to hear this combination, and I think this is why my initial impression is very even keeled.
I need to spend more time listening to see how the treble compares with that of the Yggy, and also the details. I'm not entirely blown away the way the Yggy does, as far as cymbals/percussion are concerned so far... but this is by far the best source I've heard feeding the ZD, aside from the Yggy. I'm very impressed with the clarity. Bass is as tight and deep as I've heard on the 650's. Mids are elegant, but also full bodied without stealing the show. Female vocals are also satisfying, but I'm not quite getting the bone chilling insight the Yggy offered.
Time will tell... I am tempted to hook up the Wyrd tonight and see if it changes things.
-
Please keep us posted! Thanks for the review thus far …
popcorn
-
dup, bad dup no soup for you…
-
snip
I also found the Yggy to do something with dynamic range that also kind of blew my mind. I never really understood how this could be done, but my understanding is that I'm hearing an expanded range of volume, revealing much more nuanced information than before. It's revealing nuances in how instruments are being played, how singers are forming their words, and it changes the presentation of the song in a way that captures atmosphere unbelievably well. I've heard tubes that can pull of a more "musical" sounding presentation, which is somewhat of a subjective term, but this is different. It's extra information in the form of an expanded range of volume, or dynamics... that is the way that I can best describe it.
snip
If this is what I think you're talking about then you should also be able to crank the MoarKnob up, since there would be much less discomfort at higher levels, as well.
From what I've gleaned thus far, when the source signal is 'properly' timed, and passed along to the HP's intact, the resulting acoustical presentation creates more 'powerful' sound pressure, in its proper time with respect to its actual acoustic source.
This added 'power' means that the impacts of percussion instruments, and the ability to hear sub-harmonics is enhanced. It also has other really kewl beneficial results for most other 'voices' (organic, & instrumental), like an increase in the perceived instantaneous dynamic range of each 'voice'.
The smack and punch and impact all have greater power behind them.
IOW as the signal that is converted to acoustic power becomes more cohesive, coherent, and better coupled, the power of the generated acoustical 'wave' is more 'efficient' because less power is 'wasted' or smeared thru time. This smearing means the wave form is slightly out of time and focus, with respect to its original 'parent' source. So this more precise wave front can deliver more power all because the signal can convert the inherent power in the wave form, more effectively/efficiently into acoustic power.
I notice this as being directly related to the Listener Fatigue Factor, and the ability to crank up the MoarKnob even higher, before discomfort kicks in, this is the giveaway, at least for me.
The use of the Listener Fatigue Factor also applies to analog inputs, especially vinyl, as in when the diamond tip isn't reading the groove precisely enough (time smeared), in fact that is where I first stumbled upon this rather helpful diagnostic 'tool'.
This also applies to digital which is why I think we are seeing all these femto second clocks, power supplies with umpteen sections of regulation etc., just to help get the timing as accurate as possible during the analog signal re-creation.
I have been tracking this as my own MoarKnob 'performance' shifts and changes, and there is a strong correlation to improvements and tweaks I make.
Like when I soldered the ground return leads (instead of just wire nutting them) at the j-box just upstream from my gear. This essentially 'tightened' or made more 'rigid' the ground connection to the dac and amp.
Next up are the hot and neutral wires in that same box. (http://changstar.com//Smileys/default/th_piratebang.gif)
And after getting just a taste of Jggy last weekend, it just reaffirms my take on this.
The ability for each instrument to delineate those ultra fine details and remain in focus to itself, is also related to the Listener-Fatigue-Factor L-F-F (does that satisfy everyone?) (http://changstar.com//Smileys/default/popcorn.gif) (http://changstar.com//Smileys/default/pirate-2.gif) (http://changstar.com//Smileys/default/pirate-laugh.gif)
JJ
ps I too look forward to your thoughts and insights. :thumb
-
Further impressions of the MB Gungir...
My speaker setup sounds much improved, using Gumby as the DAC. My PMC Twenty.22's have always been bass anemic, but one of the biggest improvements that I've noticed is the bass sounding much better. Overall, more clarity on both the speakers and through headphones, using the Zana Deux. Guitar/strings sound very liquid... vocals are also clear and resolving.
I am noticing that the warmth is accounting for a reduction of the "Yggy effect" where (apparently) all details are extremely resolved without coming across as unnatural in any way. Gumby is not sounding unnatural at all; it sounds extremely linear to my ears from top to bottom, but my nitpick is the warmth. Hell, I am using the ZD as my amp, so perhaps some of the blame is there, but in my defense, I've only ever heard the Yggdrasil feeding the Bottlehead Mainline, and the details were definitely more resolved. I expect that the Zana Deux should resolve just as well, but maybe somebody who has heard the BHM and ZD can chime in.
I also have noticed that my vinyl rips at 24/96 are sounding very nice with the MB Gungnir. Also the very few hi-res albums I've purchased sound better than I have heard from other DACs. I imagine this is due to the Multibit technology... but damn, they sound nice. I wish my entire digital collection was well ripped vinyl, just because it's easier than upgrading the vinyl rig and keeping things clean.
I will see how close I can get this to sound like the Yggy, but I will say that Gumby is well worth the price, IMO. Just as most of Schiit's gear has high performance to price ratio, the MB Gungnir kicks some ass. But the Yggy also kicks its ass... IMO. Thanks for comments/thoughts from others.
-
I wish my entire digital collection was well ripped vinyl, just because it's easier than upgrading the vinyl rig and keeping things clean.
With all due respect, vinyl rips are for specific albums where there are no good digital rips. In general, vinyl rips have all the downsides of vinyl combined with all the downsides of digital. The "worst of both worlds".
The whole point of vinyl in 2015 is to have no digital in the system at all...
-
With all due respect, vinyl rips are for specific albums where there are no good digital rips. In general, vinyl rips have all the downsides of vinyl combined with all the downsides of digital. The "worst of both worlds".
The whole point of vinyl in 2015 is to have no digital in the system at all...
Sorry, I guess I should have specified that I prefer the vinyl masters. They have markedly better dynamic range.
-
Sorry, I guess I should have specified that I prefer the vinyl masters. They have markedly better dynamic range.
I'm not sure what you mean by a "vinyl master" ?
-
I'm not sure what you mean by a "vinyl master" ?
Some albums aren't released digitally with the same master as the one used for their vinyl release... these are the albums that I am referring to. They sound compressed and lack the dynamic range of the vinyl issue.
This may be why some crazy people enjoy listening to vinyl rips. See the dynamic range database for more info.
-
Some albums aren't released digitally with the same master as the one used for their vinyl release... these are the albums that I am referring to. They sound compressed and lack the dynamic range of the vinyl issue.
This may be why some crazy people enjoy listening to vinyl rips. See the dynamic range database for more info.
Ah, okay. That was my first sentence: "With all due respect, vinyl rips are for specific albums where there are no good digital rips. "
-
Further impressions of the MB Gungir...
My speaker setup sounds much improved, using Gumby ... I imagine this is due to the Multibit technology ... but damn, they sound nice.
I have no doubt that you indeed just imagined two long posts about not sure what .. and you did that on a *measurements* thread! And I also imagine that your speakers sound much improved with a Dac than with a bag of carrots.
The only question I have is why are you writing this stuff?
P.S.
Did anyone do some serious tests/measurements or this whole thread is about who can imagine better?
-
Subjective comparisons are in the OP. Wasn't any stipulation that measurements or technical comparisons were necessary to post in this thread. I don't see a need to raise a stink about someone not spending hours lining up measurements.
-
Ah, okay. That was my first sentence: "With all due respect, vinyl rips are for specific albums where there are no good digital rips. "
Yes. Sadly, it seems that almost ALL modern, non classical albums have significant differences in dynamic range between vinyl and non-vinyl. It is really disappointing, but still the current norm.
I have no doubt that you indeed just imagined two long posts about not sure what .. and you did that on a *measurements* thread! And I also imagine that your speakers sound much improved with a Dac than with a bag of carrots.
The only question I have is why are you writing this stuff?
P.S.
Did anyone do some serious tests/measurements or this whole thread is about who can imagine better?
Welcome to Changstar! A place where your imagination can run wild, just like when you were a kid, and stuff like that! A place where shitty comments meant to invalidate someone's stated preferences and appealing to the sanctity of measurements will likely get you pilloried! I recommend you read more of the site before firing off critical observations. Yes, this thread is within the "measurements" sub forum, but I think you will find thenearly all conversations here invariably include subjective impressions as well. Best luck.
EDIT: reflecting thread relocation
-
Moving this thread to proper place.
Yggy measurements can be found in the appropriate sub forum. Two sets of measurements.
Consciousness and existence is all your imagination, so it doesn't really matter anyways.