CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => Headphone, IEM, and Other Audio Related Discussion => Topic started by: Marvey on April 03, 2012, 08:01:07 PM
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Attached are four LCD3 CSD plots in succession from least subjectively
veiled to most veiled. most veiled to least veiled. Note the ringing on these measurements has been exaggerated. (These are open air measurements. Sealed measurements, which are more reflective of what we actually hear, results in the ringing reduced to below -25db. This phenomenon seems to be an ortho effect does not apply to dynamics.)
I don't know what can be arrived at these measurements other than the faster and clearer sounding iterations have the resonance at higher frequencies. Could it be greater tensioning of the diaphragm? [More experiments on this later.]
The first plot was of an LCD3 which was obviously veiled. The second LCD3 also sounded quite veiled, but not as much as the first one. The last two plots were un-veiled LCD3s with one sounding just ever so slightly faster than the other.
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Nice work purrin.
It certainly seems like they increased the diaphragm tension.Eagerly awaiting further experiments. :)
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Thanks. You are the one who actually gave me the idea on this (your post on HC.) I figured resonances shift up when tension is increased (like a guitar string). So I went back and looked at the data I had. This would seem to support your hypothesis.
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You guys are pretty good, figuring out what the problem in the QC was.
What does that ringing actually sound like? Even at -25dB it would look pretty scary to me.
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Thanks. You are the one who actually gave me the idea on this (your post on HC.) I figured resonances shift up when tension is increased (like a guitar string). So I went back and looked at the data I had. This would seem to support your hypothesis.
Your impressions were detailed enough to make an educated guess.
Actually we had discussed the Audeze QC issues on ortho thread at HF & it was Wualta who suggested the 'driver tension' might be an issue.
He also said that the thinner the diaphragm, the more difficult it is to get consistent tension across drivers. Fits well with the fact that audeze ran into trouble with the new, thinner diaphragms of LCD3.
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It's good to have professional orthodynamicists over here. :-)
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Great diagnosis!
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Have been mulling a way to be able to test this, anyone here an optometrist or ophthalmologist or perhaps knows one well enough to humour some strange antics with their glaucoma measurement equipment.
This tool , blows a small puff of air against the cornea and thus measures the pressure in the globe = this would be one way to get reliable comparative data. I am sure there are other tools too but I am not familiar with any of them. The air could be blown through the front of the driver assembly - assuming that the magnets are all equally spaced from the membrane.
..dB
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^ Don't think that would work, Don.
NC tonometer are based on the assumption that corneal surface is convex. The 'air puff' flattens the corneal surface & the time taken to do this flattening gives us the ocular tension. Its unlikely to work on a planar surface.
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Marv!
Do you have any closed measurements of a "good" LCD-3 (except for the "old style" plots I've found)?
Thx,
V
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Marv!
Do you have any closed measurements of a "good" LCD-3 (except for the "old style" plots I've found)?
Thx,
V
I'd very much like to see this too. The driver-only measurements are good for diagnosing the early LCD3 tension issues, but don't really contribute to the standardized CSD archive on the site.
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Attached are four LCD3 CSD plots in succession from least subjectively veiled to most veiled. Note the ringing on these measurements has been exaggerated. (These are open air measurements. Sealed measurements, which are more reflective of what we actually hear, results in the ringing reduced to below -25db. This phenomenon seems to be an ortho effect does not apply to dynamics.)
I don't know what can be arrived at these measurements other than the faster and clearer sounding iterations have the resonance at higher frequencies. Did you mean to say this the other way around? It looks like the best graph has resonance at lower frequencies. Am I not understanding? Thanks, JT Could it be greater tensioning of the diaphragm? [More experiments on this later.]
The first plot was of an LCD3 which was obviously veiled. The second LCD3 also sounded quite veiled, but not as much as the first one. The last two plots were un-veiled LCD3s with one sounding just ever so slightly faster than the other.
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These are the most inconsistent headphones I've ever owned. I've heard a couple of LCD3s up to this point and was pretty whatever about them. My personal LCD3s got the dreaded channel imbalance and by that time I had lost most interest in them.
Audeze's customer service was exemplary. They replaced both drivers and made a new graph for me.
I plugged them back in and they sound nothing like what they did before. They're considerably more forward, clear, and much more engaging now. Before, the presentation sounded a bit muffled and gave the impression of being in a big room with poor acoustics. Every other LCD3 I've heard sounded muddy and veiled. Crossing my fingers that these drivers stay good.
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So, are you interested in them again?
You should quit messing around and get the Abyss. :&
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This is pretty much everything great about changstar in a small thread, thanks purrin and gurubhai and everyone.
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So, are you interested in them again?
You should quit messing around and get the Abyss. :&
Yeah, I like them now :) There was something to the LCD2 and LCD3s that made them not fun to listen to with fast music, but this pair is keeping up nicely, with good instrument separation and impact. I'm looking forward to hearing how these scale with the Levi.
The price on the Abyss is too much for me. The look like they belong in a case at Hot Topic. I'd love to hear them at a meet someday given all the positive impressions.
How responsive are the LCD3s to amping based on experience?
I wonder how they would pair with something like the Pinnacle to give them more laser focus.
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One of the benefits to the Abyss getting good reports is that it's going to drive Audeze to come up with a LCD-4 that competes because I believe they want to be known as having the best ortho. They could come up with something really good. I have to hope they have more in the works than just a closed LCD-2.
The down side is that they just might take the opportunity to price a new flag ship closer to the cost of the Abyss!
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I have always liked my LCD3 ( but they are not stock ) and have been tweaking even more and I now think they are truly excellent. I had mentioned to MF that I thought they would benefit from a pad similar to the TakeT H2 and after some initial experimenting, made a few changes to the pads to emulate the same concept. You basically break the seal at the front and lower end of the pads. I had previously used a fat drinking straw as proof of principle and finally just used a waxed thread and stitched it down. This opens up the soundstage dramatically, removes the "ear suction" effect, and tempers the bass intensity without losing the presence and layering.
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^ Yeah, I actually used to break my seal with them sometimes and thought it did a lot of good.
Hey, having worked on them before, how do you think my LCD-3's inherently stacked up on a scale of veiled to "super"? I always thought I got lucky with mine, but have never had a proper basis for comparison.
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my ears are not as good as purrin's , I have noted more bass presence amongst the LCD3's I have heard but never thought of it in the context of veiled. The amount of bass will also be affected by driver tension but this is also dependant on pads etc. Purrin's measurements are open and thus pad effect is not present, the bass on the measurements does not track the frequency of the resonance.
but to your question, I would agree that you have a good sounding headphone. Tari's is similarly good.
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Ah, alright. Thanks!
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The veil has nothing to do w/ bass presence. The TH900 and other bass heavy phones like it are not veiled. There are also bass light/neutral phones that are veiled like a HD555. Just listen to a TH900 and a veiled LCD3 next to each other and it's obvious.
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I was trying to correlate the differences I have heard which predominantly relate to bass. I suspect that I have not heard a pair that is obviously veiled and have only heard the TH900 at meets. I am toying with taking my LCDs along to RMAF so that I can compare them to a stock pair , I don't have the pelican case but may have to pick one up
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I have always liked my LCD3 ( but they are not stock ) and have been tweaking even more and I now think they are truly excellent. I had mentioned to MF that I thought they would benefit from a pad similar to the TakeT H2 and after some initial experimenting, made a few changes to the pads to emulate the same concept. You basically break the seal at the front and lower end of the pads. I had previously used a fat drinking straw as proof of principle and finally just used a waxed thread and stitched it down. This opens up the soundstage dramatically, removes the "ear suction" effect, and tempers the bass intensity without losing the presence and layering.
One thing I've learned from the Hifiman pad modding process and subsequent measurements from Marv, is that breaking the seal between pads and cups really messes with the low ~ sub-bass (much more drastic roll-off and higher harmonic distortion). Of course the benefits are like what you say, opening up the soundstage.
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Edit: Placeholder while troubleshooting.
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Was it confirmed that upcoming closed model from Audeze is a closed LCD2?
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Was it confirmed that upcoming closed model from Audeze is a closed LCD2?
No, I probably should have just written a closed model.
I don't think they would bring a closed model into the line up above or equal the 3 though, so that's why I made the assumption it would be a 2-ish closed model.
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Hopefully it's a little different from the LCD2 but not quite LCD3 performance in Audeze's eye. I want a slightly more U-shaped LCD2, but not have to break the bank and pay 2k aka LCD3.
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Well, 3 days after receiving my repaired LCD3s back, the right channel stopped working outright... it was working perfectly and then cut out entirely while I was listening to music. I've never had this kind of bad luck with electronics before. This was a really good sounding pair too :)p18
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Well, 3 days after receiving my repaired LCD3s back, the right channel stopped working outright... it was working perfectly and then cut out entirely. I've never had this kind of bad luck with electronics before :)p18
I don't care if a company has fantastic customer service or warranty, if their $2000 product can't stop failing, I ain't touching nothing with a 10-ft pole.
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Well, 3 days after receiving my repaired LCD3s back, the right channel stopped working outright... it was working perfectly and then cut out entirely while I was listening to music. I've never had this kind of bad luck with electronics before. This was a really good sounding pair too :)p18
Sounds just like purrin's magical sounding pair. What a glorious 48 hours that was....
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Okay... what the heck, I just plugged them back in and now both channels are working.
Earlier, I disconnected the LCD3 right after the right channel gave out, plugged in the HE6 and the HE6 worked perfectly, then reconnected the LCD3 and right channel was still silent. I unplugged the LCD3s for an hour, plugged them back in, and now they're working fine. Been using the stock 4-pin XLR this whole time. I wonder if it could be a cable issue.
These are the best LCDs I've ever heard. Was listening to them all weekend long. Bass is impactful and clean, good clarity in the mids, and it's just fun and engaging overall. They have the cleanness I associate with the HE6/HE500, but with more depth to the low-end. Wish I heard purrin's magical pair to see how these compare. I'll need to flag CEE TEE down sometime to get his thoughts on these with his PWD2 -> BA. I can only imagine what they'd be like with the Leviathan, assuming they scale better than the LCD2.
I swear this pair is haunted. Or Audeze has a funny sense of humor about burn-in :-Z
Don't suppose anyone has any idea what's going on here?
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It's funny that when we were bashing STAX QC someone put forward Audeze as an example of how to do it right... :)p12
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Could be a cable issue or it could be dying. One LCD3 which died in my hands exhibited similar behavior. R channel good at times. Not working at other times.
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Well, it looks like Audeze is recommending I ship everything back to them for a thorough check. Audeze's customer service has been exemplary this entire time. I'm not sure if I'm an isolated case or not, but I feel very reassured with how considerate and proactive Audeze has been.
I hope it's a cable issue, though it could be interesting if another set of drivers sounds different, or if I'm just hearing things.
These channel issues have thoroughly scared me off the SR009!
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I think there's something wrong with the megaohm coating on the diaphragms with these new STAX. My 007mk2.5 exhibits L/R balance issues unless kept in 0% humidity environments. My old SR-009, which I sold also failed. A friend's SR-507 also failed. I guess Ship's 009 also has L/R balance issues, and they shipped his back to the wrong person saying nothing was wrong with it. Coupled with shit service, I would only recommend new STAX earphones to people I hate.
Honestly, I think STAX stuff probably works best indoors with heaters on - in cold dry climates.
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If you want to drop $4K on stats sound, just save up and get a pair of Sanders speakers. Modern Stax can go suck a nut as far as I'm concerned. I think I'd enjoy the 009 most disassembled on my desk as an engineering display.
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Yep. Listening to the 009 right now, it totally sucks.
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Yep. Listening to the 009 right now, it totally sucks.
Isn't it the only headphone you have left? As if you have a choice. :)) :-*
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