CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => Headphone Measurements => Topic started by: Marvey on May 21, 2015, 04:05:27 AM
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HiFiMan HE-1000 Measurements - Official - Stock headphone.
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2440.0;attach=9699;image)
- Channel matching is excellent. Slight deviation in bass probably a result of pads / alignment. I didn't bother spending a lot of time adjusting. They already looked great enough, especially for orthos.
- Distortion is excellent. TP mods remove 4-5kHz distortion spike. See below.
TP Mod to tame 7.5k peak: http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2440.msg67729.html#msg67729 (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2440.msg67729.html#msg67729)
Subjective impressions: http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2386.msg67709.html#msg67709 (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2386.msg67709.html#msg67709)
(Original "measurements preliminary" posted 5/20/2015):
HE1000 L channel stock.
- Note "ortho wall" near 5kHz. All orthos exhibit similar behavior. It's not audible and absolutely nothing to be worried about. Here a link on the ortho wall phenomenon: http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1726.msg45968.html#msg45968 (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1726.msg45968.html#msg45968) I think there are other threads and posts where this is discussed.
- Of some minor concern is the 7.5kHz peak, which correlates to subjective impressions from a few peeps. My early subjective impressions can be found here: http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2386.msg67709.html#msg67709 (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2386.msg67709.html#msg67709)
- The good news is that there is no long lived ringing / ridge at 7kHz. This means it ain't bad.
- Bass extension looks to be fabulous
- CSDs overall clean with fast decay from about 1kHz up.
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Ahah! So there is that progressive treble rise that I found slightly annoying. headbang
Do you think that possible roll-off in the extended treble might be part of the minor tonal compression?
Can we get lower noise floor a la 009/HD800 eventually with top down views when you get a chance? :)p5
Looks promising, I might have to get my hands on one to play with. So far it's only this, HD800 and 009 that remotely pique my interest.
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I don't think there is much rolloff in extended treble. Take anything above 11-13kHz with a grain of salt. High treble gets really weird and directional and sometimes doesn't measure right. The "tonal enforcement toward lush", soft, beautiful, or whatever only occurred with GOv2>Magni. No such issues with Rag, Studio, or even ZD (outside of bass).
I am not having any lack-of-focus or heft issues as with ohgourami or Sorrodje, at least when using the HE-1000 appropriate. At least there's a good side. Those who prefer the lusher softer sound have good cheap options.
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I don't think there is much rolloff in extended treble. Take anything above 11-13kHz with a grain of salt. High treble gets really weird and directional and sometimes doesn't measure right.
K, just checking. Could be a TF diaphragm thing then or something else.
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Those sort of correlate with my very brief and noisy JamCam SoCal 2015 impressions. Decent bass (hitting harder than the Ethers), but a bit bright perhaps... and that's as far as I go cuz I'm not HE1K loaner special.
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Oh, before I forget.
Hi Jude!
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1671.0;attach=9690;image)
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To be fair, I think it's the most sensitive ortho I've heard to amp synergy yet. IME with the 009 and HD800 that's been a pretty good sign for scalability and potential.
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Those sort of correlate with my very brief and noisy JamCam SoCal 2015 impressions. Decent bass (hitting harder than the Ethers), but a bit bright perhaps... and that's as far as I go cuz I'm not HE1K loaner special.
Ether has some similarity. Both are kinda bright, but HE-1000 extends lower, has more heft, and is much cleaner. The pitch of low bass tones are incredibly clean and easy to make out on HE-1000. I'm a bass player so I appreciate this. Also because I am bass player, I know better than all your other guys. And my mom is a ballroom dancer, so that makes me know even more than any of you guys. And my son met Adam Sandler. Obviously I have better credentials. And by the way, I'm not an audiophile. I'm a music lover.
Sensitivity to gear = usually a good sign.
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Well, I talked about the bass here after CES and everyone who went to Canjam thought I was batshit crazy. 8) For the record, I don't play bass but I do know how to spell it and could probably draw a picture.
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Each new hifiman seems to have more and more of a problem with keeping a smooth response in the midrange.
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Maybe one day I'll learn to play my big fat piano accordion. Which means I would still not know how to play bass. I likes big smooth basses though.
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TP mod. 2-ply Kirkland.
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1671.0;attach=9688;image)
Look pa. I fixed it! See FR below. No peak. I may go to just single-ply, but the 2-ply definitely is very effective.
BTW. EXTREMELY AWESOME DISTORTION MEASUREMENTS. WELCOME TO TRUE HIGH END YOU FUCKERS.
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2440.0;attach=9692;image)
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Crap! There is no crap!
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There is a lot of clearance between the dust filter fabric of the earpads, and the driver magnets underdeath. Damping can definitely be fine-tuned.
Edit: that THD is sick. :o
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Shame about the stock 2k dip, but the rest looks nice. Thanks for the measurements!
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Can we get lower noise floor a la 009/HD800 eventually with top down views when you get a chance? :)p5
Top down CSD / Sonogram
Floors at -40, -45, -50. Take away "ortho wall" artifact and very clean between 5kHz - 10kHz - what I call "resolution alley". You know this fucker is going to resolve well. In all likelihood. Only peers are 009 and HD800.
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Looks like even the thinnest membranes can do bass very well.
Very low distortion ...
what's with the lingering below 1kHz .. outside noises ?
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Shame about the stock 2k dip, but the rest looks nice.
Close enough to the "BBC dip" often used in speakers. It's actually a great "EQ" with a lot of naturally mic'd recordings with too much room reverb.
Looks like even the thinnest membranes can do bass very well.
Very low distortion ...
what's with the lingering below 1kHz .. outside noises ?
Typical pad and baffle reflections. Only very very open baffle headphones don't have them. Orthos are open-backed, but really not a dipole dispersion since the backwave is isolated from the front wave via seal.
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Oh I might add, from a timbre point of view, something like a cross between HE-560 and HE-6. Most of the best parts of both. At least when powered properly. Quite a good sound. Otherwise with weaker amps, we end up with a Maggie planar type of sound. Again, not a bad thing necessarily.
This is absolutely a fantastic headphone. Give HFM your money now!
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Does the TP veil things or are we all good there? Measurements indicate lack of high treble which I know is just a measurement artifact. Are you getting good air up top w/ and w/o TP?
Is the stage depth on this guy filled in? As opposed to the one we heard at CanJam which was super-stereo.
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The juxtaposition of this >kilobuck* thing and TP pleases me.
*Wild guess. Don't stone me.
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I am not having any lack-of-focus or heft issues as with ohgourami or Sorrodje, at least when using the HE-1000 appropriate. At least there's a good side. Those who prefer the lusher softer sound have good cheap options.
I never said the HE1000 was lush. Never. Even from a clip zip.
Maybe my HE-9 is not capable enough but Lojay and Negura seems to share may impression about the lack of attack/impact/articulation. they Have EC 2A3 mkIV and 4-45 and they both found this headphone to sound "relaxing non offensive" our amps Not good enough maybe ? We all say that the HEK sound beautiful . Beautilful does not mean "lush" or " euphonic"... it's just like..."beautiful".
BTW, Thks for those measurements, headbang
it seems they match perfectly with our impressions ( silght sub bass bump ,high mids dip, slight treble peak). those measurements explain mostly my own impressions. I'm not so bothered by the Stock 7 khz treble peak and I never flet the need to fix any brightness.
Lack of attack, bite and articuliation comes probably from the high mids dip and contributes to what I called the lack of focus, lack of precisions in instruments and layers delineation. its really subtle though and it seems we're not all as sensitive to this point as I am. ;) .. I had no doubt about THDs after my subjective impressions ( really clean and resolving headphones)
My 2 cents.
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Wow, that is looking really good. First phone that I have been excited about as a contender to HD800 for me. With just TP.
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Oh I might add, from a timbre point of view, something like a cross between HE-560 and HE-6. Most of the best parts of both. At least when powered properly. Quite a good sound. Otherwise with weaker amps, we end up with a Maggie planar type of sound.
Good. That confirms it was amp coloration I heard at CES. It was the freaking EF6 perhaps tweaked.
Me no likie Maggie sound. Phew.
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How do you guys describe the Maggie sound?
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For me, it's overall a warm but neutral signature with a decent weight and heft for a planar speaker but it's like an audio veneer trying to mask the fact it has a planar coloration. I can never escape that sound no matter how hard Maggies try, and they do try. The purposeful tuning is obvious to me they are trying to get planar technicalities with dynamic drive sonic character. Relatively fast sounding of course but not all that resolving at all of inner resolution or micro dynamics. Doesn't have that 3D imaging of a whole SS or audio 'picture' if you catch my meaning. I didn't think clarity was very good either, rather average.
Recommended for those that prioritize a neutralish warm and 'quick' sounding planar signature over all else.
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I see.
HEK does not sound like that at all. Clarity and resolution are definitely there.
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A little bit of presence energy, a touch of sibilance and low distortion all around. Sounds about right.
I'm all for that upper mid dip on a fast headphone, especially since it's relatively mild and even. SR-009 with more bass weight :)p1
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Well, might be two types of clarity. Maggies aren't veiled, they just don't have that crystal clear window clarity. They have a planar hollow type of clarity if that makes sense. Marv said Maggie applies to underdriven or poorly matched units which I totally believe.
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That's what I noticed as well. Clarity is there at least with the he-9. Probably not ad much as what could offer the best tube amps though.
That been said. Even if the softness/hollowness is really reduced, corners are still slightly rounded. Attacks are smooth. Bite is gentle. Bass visceral impact is not enough there. layering and instruments positioning are not razor sharped.
Maybe your Totl EC amps delivered by god himself on the Sinaï Mount could change that though. Just kidding you guys. ;) no offense.
BTW as I have already said the he1000 is a wonderful headphone and i' m a fuckin' nitpicker here. YMMV.
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No offense taken. We know our amps smoke anything AGD can come up with. :-*
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Can you measure FR & THD of your Abyss again? Same scale for better comparability. Thanks
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Marv will you also be measuring the THD for stock form and updating post #1, just for completion's sake?
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No offense taken. We know our amps smoke anything AGD can come up with. :-*
(http://troll.me/images/thumbs-up-jesus-says/im-so-proud-of-you-son.jpg)
OK, OK I stop here. :)p13
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Measurements pretty much like expected. Great THD. I am personally not bothered by the treble. I am going to cross check this against the HD800 measurements if I can find those, in regards to treble, for my own interest.
The HE-9 may not be the best amp there is, but it's one of the best solid states I've heard. When it doesn't fry DACs, it's not bugged like crap as my sample was, it was better sounding than the Ragnarok or that Moon 430HA. The latter of which is a good but very boring solid state that does a lot well and nothing outstanding.
The TP mod was in and back out today. Not for me. Or I need better 2 ply. Creative minds: Would love some mod that make these more engaging, with better leading edges and attack. More like HE-6s or HD800s for me.
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I didn' find HD800 measurements amongst the new (non legacy) ones.
HD600 below.
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Does the TP veil things or are we all good there? Measurements indicate lack of high treble which I know is just a measurement artifact. Are you getting good air up top w/ and w/o TP?
Is the stage depth on this guy filled in? As opposed to the one we heard at CanJam which was super-stereo.
Resorted to 1-ply where I don't notice anything in the way. Getting good air.
Stage depth is better than CJ version which was strange with zero depth and super wide. Staging is not the best quality. Depth and layering not as strong as HD800 (obviously) or Abyss, but decent / good a la HD600/650. Left right localization is precise. YMMV.
EDIT: Now I remember. At CJ, there was a hole in the middle - things were split wide. No such problem. Center fill is good and stable.
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Ok, now the question is: who wants to part with their beta unit? :money: :)p8
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I'd like to hear how the HE9 is better than the Ragnarok, maybe in the Rag thread or somewhere else. It's still one the most clear and resolving SS amps I've ever heard. Maybe this was using the HE6 to compare or using the Rag's SE output?
For HD800 measurements you need to use the search box. A lot of the original CSD's haven't been linked or updated on the front page.
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The M9 has better bass
heftpunch and is tighter / cleaner sounding than the Rag. It is a bit brighter, much like the loaner Liquid Crimson, overall.
The M9 was more transparent, but not very involving to me. The HE-9 is said to be a bit warmer and better technically.
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The juxtaposition of this >kilobuck* thing and TP pleases me.
*Wild guess. Don't stone me.
TP (over tweeters) has been around in studios for a long time. We take a whatever works approach, hence use of Creatology foam, rug liner, etc. For those who wish to pay more, much more, and possibly with more dubious results, we suggest tweaks developed by this renaissance man: http://www.stefanaudioart.com/
Marv will you also be measuring the THD for stock form and updating post #1, just for completion's sake?
Updated first post.
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I really thought to pull the trigger for the HE-9 I have on loan and I had some "wow" moments with it but finally I found the slight synthetic tone and the lack of Clarity/transparency stayed a bit problematic with the HD800 and I know I can have better result wit a great tube amp. So I ordered the Stratus . But thus fat it's the best SS amp I heard with the HD800 and the association achieved a really great result. Still not enough for me. I expect more but I'm an asshole when I'm after the "right" sound for my ears. not heard the Rag though. the Schiit Unit is on my radar for when I'll build a speaker + headphone rig.
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You might consider the Liquid Crimson. It's really great with a similar FR to the M9, but more resolving and more involving.
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You might consider the Liquid Crimson. It's really great with a similar FR to the M9, but more resolving and more involving.
I thought to that after Marv's review But I've decided to go to the DNA Stratus. ;)
You've got a PM
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You might consider the Liquid Crimson. It's really great with a similar FR to the M9, but more resolving and more involving.
Wow, you are making the M9 sound like a not good amp. Maybe very clear sounding, but flat and boring. Don't they call that wire-with-gain-and-feedback?
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Dunno for the M9 but the HE-9 is not flat , nor boring or uninvolving , at least with my HD800. Great Bass and soundstage, a lot of smooth power but clean , grain free. A notch on the warm side. my 2 cents. sounds like a big V8 , smooth (onctueux) with a lot of Torque but able to kick you ass if needed. (how do you guys say "souplesse moteur" in english ? ) . Like a big 1400cc 4 cylinders in a motorcycle. smooth, powerful but never brutal. opposite of a 2 Strokes GP500 ;)
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ahhh nice! posted my query in the 'he-1k stream of consciousness' thread prior to finding this, but this seems like the right place for my query.
I was having a bit of measurement difficulties with the he-1k. seems quite sensitive to positioning & difficult for me to get precise readings after multiple trials. also curious what is the amplifier used in the measurements posted as I had some concerns about the whether my Oppo HA-2 is adequate for measuring the FR on the HE-1k.
Looking at purrin's measurements, it is actually more relieving. I did get some similar results in the overall shape of the curve with the jaggedness throughout the midrange & the upper treble recession, but I was afraid that my results were due to measurement artifacts. my csd plot was totally weird as well, but it is good to read about the presence of the ortho wall.
sry for the cross-post, but I appreciate any other additional feedback or assistance for a relative amateur trying to get accurate measurements on the he-1k! thanks!! :) cheers
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Wow, you are making the M9 sound like a not good amp. Maybe very clear sounding, but flat and boring. Don't they call that wire-with-gain-and-feedback?
It's actually not that surprising: I already preferred the SA-31 to the built in amp in my ex NFB-27, which was basically a Master-5/6/8. Granted, the M9 is slightly different than the 5/6/8 (a bit warmer and better technically) but it didn't really move me. I kept the Rag when I owned both because of its warmer and more inviting midrange (like the SA-31).
Reports say the HE-9 is a better animal than the M9 as well, and tuned a bit warmer still. Might be closer to my preference, especially with the HE1k.
The Crimson is my favorite amp of the bunch, by a good margin.
Sorry for the OT.
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I was having a bit of measurement difficulties with the he-1k. seems quite sensitive to positioning & difficult for me to get precise readings after multiple trials. also curious what is the amplifier used in the measurements posted as I had some concerns about the whether my Oppo HA-2 is adequate for measuring the FR on the HE-1k.
Looking at purrin's measurements, it is actually more relieving. I did get some similar results in the overall shape of the curve with the jaggedness throughout the midrange & the upper treble recession, but I was afraid that my results were due to measurement artifacts. my csd plot was totally weird as well, but it is good to read about the presence of the ortho wall.
I use an Objective 2 amp for measuring since it has excellent measurements but sounds OK/mediocre/actually-kinda-bad. Measurements are measurements. Really won't matter what amp you use unless you do some really odd impedance mismatch.
Inconsistent measurements in the high treble are expected, but other regions should be consistent, especially with planars. Some jagginess in the mids with this headphone and some other planars is normal. Are you getting a good seal? Hard for me to say unless you are more specific about your measurement rig, the parameters for CSDs (window, rise time, etc.)
Ask more in this thread: http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2325.msg63865.html#msg63865
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hey purr1n,
thank you for your advice & feedback. I will look into that advice thread you linked. I accidentally ended up cross posting, so here is my measurement chain again: Dell XPS m1530 with Windows 7 > ARTA Generates Sine Sweeps > Steinberg UR-22 USB Interface with Yamaha ASIO > Line Out > Oppo HA-2 Amplifier > headphones placed upon my own head (left ear being measured) > Pannasonic WM61-A Microphone > Steinberg UR-22 > Laptop > ARTA analysis.
I will look into the parameters for my csd plots again over this weekend. I appreciate you taking the time to respond!
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Resorted to 1-ply where I don't notice anything in the way. Getting good air.
snip
I concurr with the single ply vs 2 ply.
Also I have noticed a larger Listener Fatigue Factor at the same or lessor volume level on the HE1K when compared to my 800's, even with the dbl TP mod in place.
JJ
sheesh who knew some were so sensitive?
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Also I have noticed a larger LFF (Listener Fatigue Factor) at the same or lessor volume level on the HE1K when compared to my 800's, even with the dbl TP mod in place.
Wrong LFF. :)p12
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So after fussing with the TP mod and then putting the HE1K's aside for a day or so, I plug them back in to give them another listen.
In between I had soldered the ac power hot and neutral leads instead of just using the duplex receptacle as the connection point, which is just upstream from where the amp and dac are plugged in.
The results were immediately noticed.
But not on the HE1K's.
This, to me, points out the basic nature of planar magnetic drivers.
Every planar I have listened to, and no I haven't heard them all, have a sonic similarity.
It's inherent with the design.
or as HiFiman puts it, Advanced Asymmetrical Magnetic Circuit design.
Planar's either have sound pressure propagation or magnetic field strength issues, and/or both.
Asymmetrical issues result in an asymmetrical response to the generated acoustical waveform.
Just as e-stats don't do low bass, and dynamics aren't as fast as e-stats, every design has its balance of what it does well and what it doesn't.
Planar's are smooth, or can be smooth if well designed.
They tend to be non amp specific and 'easy' on signal source requirements.
They are or can be quite competent, but are not on the bleeding edge in terms of SQ.
And the HE1K's ARE real smooth, enjoyable but not articulate, engaging but not involving.
I can see why they would be popular as they check off lots of the hot buttons of a TotL piece of gear.
And they are smooth, which is better than having to fight with which amp pairs well with them, (not smooth), as just about any amp will, well, as long as it has enough power to drive them.
But smooth not only in terms of SQ but ownership and a lack of needing to fuss with them, to immediately be able to enjoy them, out of the box.
But if you're looking for detail, just like the rest of the planars, it only goes to a certain depth, and the deep end of this pool definitely goes MUCH deeper.
I found myself missing all of that detail that I'm used to, so I put them back in their box and was once again hearing the improvements that my recent solder job has delivered.
JJ