CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Non-Audio Stuff => The Geek Cave: Home Theatre, Computers, and More! => Topic started by: Stapsy on January 15, 2014, 02:46:57 AM
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As usual I am sure this will be DaveBSC answering my dumb questions, but hopefully others will find this helpful as well. Feel free to chat about any computer related audio stuff (optimizing sound quality for PCs, Laptops, etc.)
Copied from the Laptop and Audio thread:
"Good question, I have been thinking about having some sort of dedicated music interface, probably a laptop, desktop, or music server. Laptop seems like the easiest way to go for portability. I know nothing about building computers, what are some things that you should look for?
I am thinking that reducing noise and secondary functions as much as possible is the goal here. SSD is one idea, are there any differences in USB ports for audio quality? Also, is it better to use battery power, is there another way to regulate the power supply, or does it even matter? I don't want to fret too much, I am just wondering how much of a difference these things will make. I can't help but feel listening to music while having my laptop connected to wifi and surfing the internet isn't really the best sound quality I am going to get."
It has been a long time coming for me to improve on my laptop set up. I am probably sacrificing sound quality playing straight out of my laptop and being tethered down by a USB cable is annoying me (and the mess of cables on my coffee table is annoying my girlfriend).
Dave mentioned the Auraliti PK90 as an easy solution. When I looked at the Auraliti website they also have the PK100 model, which outputs via SPDIF instead of USB. I am wondering if the SPDIF version would be better than USB? Is the PK100 essentially using an SPDIF soundcard to output as if it were a mini computer (remember I am dumb, this is how I understand things)? If that is the case then probably better off using USB. The fact that the PK90 won't work with M2tech async USB is a bit of turn off if I want to get an OR5. The other option is to try and make a dedicated PC or laptop.
One more thing, how does the software compare to something like Jriver, which is what I am currently using with my laptop.
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Where are all of your music files stored now? Locally on your laptop or on a network storage?
Zerodeefex hipped me to RaspyFi some time ago, and it has squashed all plans of mine to build a dedicated HTPC for audio. RaspyFi has turned to Volumnio and supports a few more platforms now: http://volumio.org/devices/#PI
Supposedly there are still bugs to be worked out with the new build, so I haven't switched over from RaspyFi yet. Considering a RaspPi wasn't developed for hifi application, you'll likely lose some sonic performance to something like an Auraliti, but for $35 its too cheap to not try it out just to see if it'll do the trick. If it doesn't work out, you can always repurpose the RaspPi to do something else (mine was previously used for XBMC while on travel). It's doing the job splendidly, although I wish there were more options for creating and saving playlists.
Another option is the Squeezebox project using the Wandboard called Community Sqeeze: http://www.communitysqueeze.org/quick_start_guide.jsp
I haven't used it myself, so I can't compare it to RaspyFi one way or another.
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Gigabyte has this http://www.gigabyte.sg/press-center/news-page.aspx?nid=1232 so no need for that extra card unless you really want to take it all the way together of course, with building an LPS for the mobo.
RaspPi is easier to obtain an LPS obviously and really cheap, got a friend who powers his with Li-ion battery packs for music.
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Nice find on that motherboard, assuming it holds up to its claims. If so, I think that would be an excellent choice for most PC builders, gamers, etc. that don't necessarily want a separate box for music. At least, for me, I think that would deliver performance below the threshold of my hearing abilities if coupled with a good USB converter or DAC with good USB input.
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For those not adverse to the Appleverse... I just picked up a used MacMini from eBay (read, cheap) and set up a music server at home. It was dead easy. I run it headless and can control it from any of my Macs, iPhone, or iPad.
I'm currently keeping the bulk of the music library on the internal hard drive. I've got two external hard drives on the fire wire bus, one for middle of they night back ups and the other holding another music library, primarily DSD stuff. I may eventually move the library from the internal drive to the external.
The DAC is the only thing using the USB bus.
I honestly do not notice a difference in the SQ between my old set up and this dedicated server, but I like knowing it's set up properly to do it's job as good as it can.
There are a bunch of little things I can do to tweak this set up even more, and I likely will do a few things down the road. In the mean time I'm really happy that I get it set up as I find having a dedicated server a really nice luxury.
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As usual I am sure this will be DaveBSC answering my dumb questions, but hopefully others will find this helpful as well. Feel free to chat about any computer related audio stuff (optimizing sound quality for PCs, Laptops, etc.)
Copied from the Laptop and Audio thread:
"Good question, I have been thinking about having some sort of dedicated music interface, probably a laptop, desktop, or music server. Laptop seems like the easiest way to go for portability. I know nothing about building computers, what are some things that you should look for?
I am thinking that reducing noise and secondary functions as much as possible is the goal here. SSD is one idea, are there any differences in USB ports for audio quality? Also, is it better to use battery power, is there another way to regulate the power supply, or does it even matter? I don't want to fret too much, I am just wondering how much of a difference these things will make. I can't help but feel listening to music while having my laptop connected to wifi and surfing the internet isn't really the best sound quality I am going to get."
Dave mentioned the Auraliti PK90 as an easy solution. When I looked at the Auraliti website they also have the PK100 model, which outputs via SPDIF instead of USB. I am wondering if the SPDIF version would be better than USB? Is the PK100 essentially using an SPDIF soundcard to output as if it were a mini computer (remember I am dumb, this is how I understand things)? If that is the case then probably better off using USB. The fact that the PK90 won't work with M2tech async USB is a bit of turn off if I want to get an OR5. The other option is to try and make a dedicated PC or laptop.
One more thing, how does the software compare to something like Jriver, which is what I am currently using with my laptop.
Yes, the PK100 has a soundcard output. It will probably outperform most of the cheaper USB to S/Pdif converters, but will ultimately be a limiting factor. Unless I'm mistaken, the Auraliti boxes use MPD for playback. There's no monitor or keyboard/mouse input, you just hook it up to your stereo and turn it on. Since it doesn't have a large internal drive, you won't need to copy everything on to it via your network like you would with a VortexBox DIY server. You just plug in whatever hard drive has your music on it.
Assuming it is MPD, you control it via the network using an app like mPod for iOS or MPDroid for Android. They work basically the same way JRemote does. If you don't have an ethernet connection, you can just hook up a wireless ethernet bridge which will provide one.
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Anyone looking for a good quality, cheap ITX case for your own music playback system:
http://www.directron.com/sstsg05bblite.html
The SG-05 is definitely not the greatest case in the world, but with a little modding can be made near silent and is a great deal at $36. I'd recommend gutting the SFX PSU and replacing it with a picoPSU.
Here's a review from SPCR:
http://www.silentpcreview.com/Silverstone_SG05_SG06
To my knowledge, even though the review was written in 2009, Mike already had his anechoic chamber up and running so the measurements should be accurate and comparable to the other reviews found on SPCR if you're looking for noise reference points.
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I'm definitely in a different tier with my IT nerd setup, but it checks all the boxes. I just use an headless HP MicroServer running Windows Home Server 2011 and iTunes with shared library. It can serve up anything to everything, but I want even more features so I'm considering upgrading it to WS12R2.
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If you run Linux, there's really no need for any sort of active cooling because an Atom is plenty. This little guy works very well and you can pick one up for around $90.
(http://image.ec21.com/image/wesena/oimg_GC05547164_CA05547180/Wesena_Mini_ITX6_HTPC_Case.jpg)
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Lots of good ideas here. I am a little torn between SQ and convenience. If you were to use something like RaspyFi or the Auraliti how would you get music onto them. I understand you have to use an external hard drive, but is there a way to rip CDs onto the hard drive without moving the drive back and forth from your computer to the server. I am also a bit concerned about the playback software as I really like Jriver.
Any idea how close I could get to the above if I removed unnecessary functions from my laptop and had it set up entirely for music playback? My dad has a Surface Pro that he doesn't use so I might be able to ninja that from hi for a bit to test out my Win8Tablet and laptop idea.
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A separate issue is how you store your files now. I'd really recommend getting a NAS for convenience and redundancy. I've had a drive fail in college and had to re-rip a couple of TB's worth of music and shit was NOT fun. Once you get a network storage drive in place, you don't have to worry about physically moving files -- just rip on your computer and transfer them over. Then, you can also do cool stuff like install Plex server.
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MPD is basically transparent, it's not really something you have to interface with like iTunes or JRiver. I use MPDroid on my phone, it's about as easy as you could possibly want. Pick an artist or album or song, start playing or create a playlist.
If your music is still mostly on CDs, rip them all to your PC, copy them all at once to a USB hard drive, and then plug that in to your server. If you just want to be able to add albums as you go, that's an area where VortexBox has an advantage over the Auraliti box. You can use an internal hdd, which is always accessible on the network. You just copy the new album over to the "music" folder, and as long as its tagged correctly, you're good to go.
(https://lh5.ggpht.com/8zSScYdUTawrH17Ia5T3N05X7RDiQFVcjXmH7kR2N1dDFpxJTH6ei54c0gb4PPYCJ7I=h900)
(https://lh6.ggpht.com/WPSzv40nT8MH-6fr4i1dupQpqb_HnYj0zu0YOYg-4xicj-SDdWIrvnxbj5euC3m89Zc=h900)
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Thanks for the screenshot Dave. I was diddling around trying to find something like that but I see technical information and my brain gets easily distracted.
Like QH suggested a NAS should be my first priority. I am almost finished ripping all my cd's for the second time after my laptop crashed this summer. I am periodically backing them up, but NAS is a much better solution. Part of my problem is that my music collection is growing so rapidly that making the time to backup every single rip is getting annoying when all I want to do is listen to my new music. I think I would be better off separating my mobile needs from interfering with my home set up. I am just trying to think ahead about how I will integrate everything together.
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I am just trying to think ahead about how I will integrate everything together.
You and I both!
I also want a central music server for home.
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Thanks for the screenshot Dave. I was diddling around trying to find something like that but I see technical information and my brain gets easily distracted.
Like QH suggested a NAS should be my first priority. I am almost finished ripping all my cd's for the second time after my laptop crashed this summer. I am periodically backing them up, but NAS is a much better solution. Part of my problem is that my music collection is growing so rapidly that making the time to backup every single rip is getting annoying when all I want to do is listen to my new music. I think I would be better off separating my mobile needs from interfering with my home set up. I am just trying to think ahead about how I will integrate everything together.
FWIW, RaspyFi/Volumio uses MPD protocol as well. I use that exact app (MPDroid) to navigate my collection of music. Best part of something like RaspyFi or the Auriliti is that it's headless and can be controlled with any phone/tablet/computer on the network. When I was running my music through a laptop using JRiver, i sometimes didn't want to bother with booting up windows, waiting for jriver to load my library, or waiting for windows to finish installing updates and rebooting, etc.
But yeah, I don't know of anyone who regretted spending the effort/money to get a NAS set up. Once that's good to go, the playback part is easy whether you decide to just plug in your laptop, build a dedicated HTPC or a headless option. For me, it's been sorta life changing because I could finally ditch having a desktop PC, centralized my entire music and movie collection, have a repository for me and my girlfriend to dump all of our pictures from trips/outings, can backup all of my important documents.
You can do a DIY NAS using old computer parts that you can expand with something like unRAID or FreeNAS, or the dozens of off the shelf options. I did an unRAID pro and ended up spending about 175 + 75 for license + hard drives. Can expand up to 24 drives so it'll be a long while before you fill all of that up.
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As far as off the shelf solutions go, I highly recommend Synology. You can get a two-bay NAS from them for as little as $200, and you get the same superb Diskstation Manager OS as the top end models.
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As far as off the shelf solutions go, I highly recommend Synology. You can get a two-bay NAS from them for as little as $200, and you get the same superb Diskstation Manager OS as the top end models.
The Synology DS212J goes on sale every few months, for as low as $150. I see it pop up regularly on Slickdeals. Not sure if the specific model is actually good though, tried to get a friend to buy one for his parents to stream video.
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Ok explain this to me like I am an Apple user, do you use the NAS as a backup system or to feed directly to the server. I think ideally I would like to have the NAS set up as a backup serer and then be able to sync multiple computers to the NAS. So I rip from one CPU and then have it available on other CPUs in my network by transferring from the NAS to the CPU hard drives. I hope that makes sense.
Also I found a couple of remote applications for IPhone that will allow me to control Jriver from my phone, so that will likely be a cheap and easy solution to my mobile music set up. I am going to download that and see if I can get it to work by turning my phone into a wifi hotspot and then connecting my laptop. Being anle to stop/start/select music without actually having to use the laptop would be pretty much ideal for my "mobile" purposes
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Ok explain this to me l
ike I am an Apple user, do you use the NAS as a backup system or to feed directly to the server.
You can do either. The Auraliti I don't think will stream from a NAS, I think it has to be from a USB connected hdd. VortexBox requires internal storage. PCs or Macs running software like JRiver can sync to a NAS and stream directly from it, as can the many music streamers on the market. One of the most interesting of this latter category is Auralic's Lightning Aeris, which can stream from a NAS via either wireless AC or ethernet, and can then act as a host controller with an asynchronous output to a USB DAC. It will also have conventional digital outputs. The price is said to be $999, which is very reasonable for this sort of thing.
Everything will depend on the software, which they are developing from scratch. If it turns out to be garbage like PS Audio's eLyric then it's not worth paying that much attention to, but if they can actually get it working reasonably well, it could turn computer audio on its head, and potentially end the Mac/Win/Linux is better debate.
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From the Auraliti site it looks like it will work with a NAS. The linux/dac compatibility issue is still bugging me since I am not confident that I have the exact DAC I want to end up with and am going to wait for my EC amp before I make any more DAC plans.
I was looking around trying to find out more about CAPS and Vortexbox. Found this site http://shop.smallgreencomputer.com/main.sc (http://shop.smallgreencomputer.com/main.sc) which sells pre-made versions. Not sure if that would be worth it since I could probably figure out how to do it myself, though I haven't gone through the cost of all the parts. With an internal HDD I might also be able to avoid the need for a NAS (and associated costs) as long as I could transfer from the HDD to my laptop. Do both of these options run a music playback software internally like the Auraliti/Raspyfi or would this setup be more involved?
At this point I am thinking an NAS and Raspyfi setup might suit all of my convenience needs and allow me to get my feet wet without sinking too much money into it. The Auraliti hits the right price point for me but I am not totally confident that it will be compatible for the foreseeable future.
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I was looking around trying to find out more about CAPS and Vortexbox. Found this site http://shop.smallgreencomputer.com/main.sc (http://shop.smallgreencomputer.com/main.sc) which sells pre-made versions. Not sure if that would be worth it since I could probably figure out how to do it myself, though I haven't gone through the cost of all the parts. With an internal HDD I might also be able to avoid the need for a NAS (and associated costs) as long as I could transfer from the HDD to my laptop. Do both of these options run a music playback software internally like the Auraliti/Raspyfi or would this setup be more involved?
http://shop.smallgreencomputer.com/Micro-VortexBox-vbMicro.htm (http://shop.smallgreencomputer.com/Micro-VortexBox-vbMicro.htm)
That's not a bad deal at all. You could make one yourself for $350-400, but you'd have to install VortexBox yourself. It's functionally the same as the Auraliti, minus the SoTM card, but there are better options than that anyway, and opening up the case and installing a USB card isn't difficult. It should also support 90+% of DACs out there.
http://info.vortexbox.org/tiki-index.php?page=Compatibility+Guide (http://info.vortexbox.org/tiki-index.php?page=Compatibility+Guide)
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Cool, I like the VortexBox option. I am going to get in touch with the company for some more info on the product. I actually saw them because they were selling the VortexBox through Amazon. 1tb is more than enough for my audio files right now and the price is within my budget. If everything checks out I am going to see if I can get one when my brother goes to the States in a month to save on taxes :)p1
In an unrelated note the Jremote app I downloaded for Jriver is excellent. Super easy to set up and well worth the $10 if you have an iOs device and Jriver. Unfortunately I have not yet been able to figure out how to implement my plan of connecting to Jriver through Jremote by utilizing my iPhones wireless network and connecting my laptop to the phone's wireless hotspot. I think there is a way to do it, but the set up is different from a regular internet connection.
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Actually I forgot something - the case they use for the mini version has no slot for expansion cards. If you wanted to use something like the PPA studio card, you'd need this version.
(http://shop.smallgreencomputer.com/Audiophile-VortexBox-vbAudiophile.htm)
For mPod or MPDroid to work as wifi remote controllers, the phone or tablet must be on the same wifi network as the server, controlled by a central router. I don't think VortexBox supports USB wifi adapters, nor would I recommend using one, but you can still add wireless support via an ethernet bridge, which is basically just a wifi adapter that connects to the ethernet port rather than USB port, and thus doesn't have to interface with the host OS at all.
The only thing it uses the internet for is to grab tags and cover art for CDs that you rip directly, otherwise you don't need it. So I think you could just plug a router into it that has no WAN connection, and just use that for wifi remote purposes. Not sure though, I haven't actually tried that.
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I can't see the link you posted, I am assuming it is this one
http://shop.smallgreencomputer.com/Audiophile-VortexBox-vbAudiophile.htm (http://shop.smallgreencomputer.com/Audiophile-VortexBox-vbAudiophile.htm)
I don't foresee wanting to use the expansion slot but I might as well have it anyway. As far as I can tell the VortexBox uses its own playback software that is based on MPD, so any of the mPod or MPDroid apps would work with VortexBox?
Quick update on my Jremote solution. I got the remote to work using my iPhone 3G network connection by using the phones' wireless hotspot and connecting my laptop to that network. I can now stream from my laptop to my phone or control Jriver using Jremote without needing a true wifi router. Once I had the network set up using the Jriver network access key, closing the app and then restarting Jriver automatically updated the IP address so that it would function on my iPhone's network. I am pretty happy with this solution for now. I don't know if it would be useful to anybody else, but being able use Jremote when I am not at my home network works for what I want.
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I can't see the link you posted, I am assuming it is this one
http://shop.smallgreencomputer.com/Audiophile-VortexBox-vbAudiophile.htm (http://shop.smallgreencomputer.com/Audiophile-VortexBox-vbAudiophile.htm)
I don't foresee wanting to use the expansion slot but I might as well have it anyway. As far as I can tell the VortexBox uses its own playback software that is based on MPD, so any of the mPod or MPDroid apps would work with VortexBox?
It's definitely worth having, as you can substantially upgrade the USB output over a standard motherboard port for very low cost. Yep, any MPD remote interface will work fine. mPod and mPad are the ones I know about for iOS, on Android there's 3 or 4 of them, but MPDroid is the most polished. VortexBox can also be controlled from any web browser.
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I was hoping Dave could tackle this, but anybody in the know is of course welcome. I'm considering building a C.A.P.S., but don't know that it's a worthy expenditure compared to my current setup: Laptop (Asus something rather with an I7 processor, SSD drive)> Fidelizer (networking disabled) running into an Aqvox USB PSU > Offramp 5 > i2s > Lampizator/M7/PWD. What, if anything, would a dedicated server bring to my setup in your opinion?
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I was hoping Dave could tackle this, but anybody in the know is of course welcome. I'm considering building a C.A.P.S., but don't know that it's a worthy expenditure compared to my current setup: Laptop (Asus something rather with an I7 processor, SSD drive)> Fidelizer (networking disabled) running into an Aqvox USB PSU > Offramp 5 > i2s > Lampizator/M7/PWD. What, if anything, would a dedicated server bring to my setup in your opinion?
The first question is whether or not your laptop is capable of running the CPU at a fixed clock rate. Speedstep is great for general purpose computing, giving CPU power when you need it and slowing it down when you don't. It's not great for USB audio streaming, but laptops are not designed to run their CPUs at full blast all the time, and will likely have to ramp up the cooling fan to compensate, which is not something you want either.
The other thing you can get with a server that you can't with a laptop is a true zero moving part, zero noise system. Even if you want to run a high power CPU, which you really don't need at all for a music server, there are huge passive heatsinks that can handle that without any fan noise and without any of the associated DC noise from that fan being fed back into the system.
For VortexBox or JRiver though, a board like MSI's soon to be released J1800I would be perfect. It's got an on board 2.4Ghz Bay Trail-D dual core Celeron. More than enough for Linux and enough to run Windows perfectly well, and it's a 10W chip so it needs basically no cooling. Put it in a little Wesnea box with a PPA Pico PSU and you're good to go. PPA's USB card will also provide a much higher quality output than the AQVOX can, and you can easily power the system with an Empirical Dynamo LPS, which is capable of ~3-4A at 12V.
(http://www.techpowerup.com/img/14-01-17/MSI_J1800I_01.jpg)
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I wasn't quite sure where to put this. I thought it would fit best here...
I downloaded Fidelizer today and have been listening using it out tonight. Since I only use my laptop for surfing the internet and I am technically inept I thought I would give it a try.
I am very impressed by the results so far. The things that jump out at me straight away are a blacker background and improved dynamics (likely because of the reduced background noise. I have no idea if it is cocking up my computer but the results are hard to argue with. I haven't really tested thoroughly, but I also haven't noticed any issues so far that would make me want to turn Fidelizer off. I am at the point where I don't particularly care if it is an improvement or not. I am enjoying the results. Unless there is some drastic issue that someone mentions I think I will just keep using it.
I have been having some issue with crashing when using my OR5 with kernel streaming in Jriver (24 bit integer mode). I thought Fidelizer might help with that. Seems like the issue comes up when using the pause button, though it has happened randomly when listening to music. I am going to keep my eye on it. If the worst case scenario is that I can't use the pause button I will happily avoid it. The improvement is such that I don't have a desire to press pause anyway.
I am still looking at getting a vortex box as an endgame solution. For now I think I will just put that money towards a DAC improvement.
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I have been using MPD for a couple of years now and it's been great and stable, however i've been eyeing mopidy. Which is basically MPD with streaming and extension support for things like spotify etc. By just going over the configuration documentation i'm a bit concerned it's limited in certain options i use with MPD, like specify which soundcard to use for output and disabling any resampling and/or software mixers. My xmos interface does not have volume control support(under linux) so i guess the perceived problem of bit perfect by way of volume control is not present. But still there was nothing mentioned of soundcard output device selection. With MPD it's a simple hw:1,0 to get the first output on the second soundcard.
Perhaps i should be the guinea pig and try it out hehe, was just wondering though if Dave or anyone else gave it a try. The weather is too nice here to mess with it atm...
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I haven't tried that, but I am planning to migrate my VortexBox server to the new 2.3 version which replaces MPD with Squeezelite - and also adds support for streaming services like Spotify. According to Darko at least, Squeezelite is also supposed to sound a bit better than MPD.
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Hmm well i'll put that one on the list as well, i'm moving soon and i pretty much have to rebuild my setup because of a very different situation anyway. Having spotify support would be nice to have as well. I'll post how it goes in a couple of weeks :)