CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS

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Author Topic: Headphones as good as $40K speaker systems for a fraction of? BULLSHIT!  (Read 15664 times)

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Marvey

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Re: Headphones as good as $40K speaker systems for a fraction of? BULLSHIT!
« Reply #80 on: March 07, 2013, 06:58:28 PM »

Damn you! Now I need to make 3+ subs. I wonder if this will cost me less than an LCD-3?
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omegakitty

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Re: Headphones as good as $40K speaker systems for a fraction of? BULLSHIT!
« Reply #81 on: March 07, 2013, 08:40:35 PM »

Fascinating stuff :)

I guess I will be content with my low fidelity setup and 'analog' bass traps  :)p13
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DaveBSC

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Re: Headphones as good as $40K speaker systems for a fraction of? BULLSHIT!
« Reply #82 on: March 07, 2013, 08:47:30 PM »

As before, you seem to be replying to something other than the text I actually wrote. Something can be "low fidelity" but subjectively enjoyable.
How long are those wavelengths? How big are the name-brand baubles you are using to manipulate them?

The answers are, respectively, more or less "very long" and "not big enough," if you were curious.
The "big pile" of subwoofers (interesting metaphor but factually incorrect, because to be useful the multiple subwoofers need to be distributed around the room as far away from one another as practiceable; if they are in a "big pile" they sum to effectively one subwoofer) is deployed not to smooth response in the first-mode region (below about 40-50Hz in a "small room"). The first-mode region is best addressed with global EQ for all subs, because the modes are so sparse.

You wrote: "Any home audio system that does not employ multiple subwoofers and suitable EQ based on in-situ measurements is a low-fidelity system. Period. Doesn't matter if the speakers are some cheap full-range deal or TAD Model Ones."

That sentence is a big pile of bullshit. That's the text that you wrote, that's what I'm replying to. "does not employ multiple subwoofers and suitable EQ " vastly overestimates the importance of the 25-40Hz region which is actually fairly moderate in overall importance, in the grand scheme of things.

A typical 2" trap stops being effective around the 250Hz region. A 4" trap placed flat on the wall can still manage NRC 1.0+ down to about 150Hz. Putting them in corners with an air gap behind them makes them far more effective, they can manage NRC 2.0+ down to 100Hz, and are still absorbing (0.80) down to about 80Hz. Below that, you really need targeted traps. A standard 8" trap is far more absorptive at around 80hz, but still ineffective below that. Again, targeted traps work differently than traditional broadband absorbers and are much more effective than you seem to think. Whether you think they are "ugly" is completely irrelevant.

I'm really glad you're so in love with your multisub arrangement. To suggest that it's "required" for high-fidelity sound in a room however is a bunch of BULLSHIT.
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rhythmdevils

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Re: Headphones as good as $40K speaker systems for a fraction of? BULLSHIT!
« Reply #83 on: March 07, 2013, 08:52:39 PM »

Have the two of you forgotten that there is more to hi-fi than just bass reproduction?  I think sometimes audiophiles get so lost examining the texture of tree bark they forget how to look at the forest. 
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DaveBSC

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Re: Headphones as good as $40K speaker systems for a fraction of? BULLSHIT!
« Reply #84 on: March 07, 2013, 08:58:39 PM »

Have the two of you forgotten that there is more to hi-fi than just bass reproduction?  I think sometimes audiophiles get so lost examining the texture of tree bark they forget how to look at the forest.

That's what I was trying to get at when I said that plenty of people are perfectly happy with monitors that have little to no deep bass extension. DS-21's response was basically "those people are ignorant fucks."
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Marvey

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Re: Headphones as good as $40K speaker systems for a fraction of? BULLSHIT!
« Reply #85 on: March 07, 2013, 09:49:52 PM »

I think it comes down to what high-fidelity means. I know many an audiophile who feel that accurate 20Hz-20khz reproduction is a basic tenet of high-fidelity (personally I'm happy with 30Hz-18kHz). Perhaps DS21's statement on "low-fidelity" was a bit too strong or exaggerated. Although what DS21 says makes sense to me from a logic and intuitive level:
  • Can't do much with the first room mode anyways other than alter the room, so notch it down with EQ
  • Distribute multiple subs throughout the room to even out response (frequency and spatial) irregularities. I'll have actually walked around a room and measured bass SPL levels @ specific frequencies with one sub. It's pretty messed up.
LOL, it's probably cheaper (but more work) to build /x-over/plate amps/subs than buy bass panels which are only marginally effective at lower frequencies. The cost does start adding up over multiple panels.

Now I feel like writing a computer program to see SPL over time at specific frequencies with various sub placements and defined boundaries.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2013, 09:54:58 PM by purrin »
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arnaud

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Re: Headphones as good as $40K speaker systems for a fraction of? BULLSHIT!
« Reply #86 on: March 07, 2013, 09:56:45 PM »

Hence we're back square one with headphones! Kidding, I have a feeling my presence in the thread is not appreciated so I will sit back, watch, laugh, and maybe learn a bit about the advances in room acoustics over the past 10 years ;)
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omegakitty

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Re: Headphones as good as $40K speaker systems for a fraction of? BULLSHIT!
« Reply #87 on: March 07, 2013, 09:59:32 PM »

LOL, it's probably cheaper (but more work) to build /x-over/plate amps/subs than buy bass panels which are only marginally effective at lower frequencies. The cost does start adding up over multiple panels.

If you're building subs, you probably have the skills to build bass panels/traps. I know manufacturers claim their magic material X and what not but there is plenty of DIY data out there for plans  :)p5

Personally for me (and I have not listened to these multi-sub systems) I place far more emphasis on midrange tonality than perfect bass response. If you can have both, that's great. I prefer simpler stuff, but I also like tube amps and vinyl so what the hell do I know.

Not to say I'm dismissing it, but if I'm serious about speakers I'm always going to have a dedicated listening room, well proportioned and large.
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DaveBSC

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Re: Headphones as good as $40K speaker systems for a fraction of? BULLSHIT!
« Reply #88 on: March 07, 2013, 10:02:02 PM »

I think it comes down to what high-fidelity means. I know many an audiophile who feel that accurate 20-20k reproduction is a basic tenet of high-fidelity. Perhaps Jay's statement on "low-fidelity" was a bit too strong or exaggerated. Although what Jay says makes sense to me from a logic and intuitive level:
LOL, it's probably cheaper (but more work) to build /x-over/plate amps/subs than buy bass panels which are only marginally effective at lower frequencies. The cost does start adding up over multiple panels.

Perhaps some do, but IMO 20-30 in particular is of marginal importance at best vs FR overall, is very difficult to get perfect, and is not worth spending tons of cash on. If you want to buy a bunch of drivers, boxes, and plate amps or amp/eq combinations and build them all, be my guest. Maybe if you do it 100% DIY it won't cost a fortune. Commercial subs OTOH that are any good will cost you a minimum of about $1000/ea. The big RELs and JL Audios are triple that amount. And you need what, 3? 4? A targeted 10" membrane bass trap will cost you $200-250.

One of the best systems I've heard in recent years was a pair of NOLA Micro Grands in a professionally treated room. The NOLAs are all out of ideas by 35Hz. To call that "low-fi" is idiotic.
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omegakitty

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Re: Headphones as good as $40K speaker systems for a fraction of? BULLSHIT!
« Reply #89 on: March 07, 2013, 10:06:14 PM »

DS-21 would you mind posting a picture of your setup? I'm curious about the "WAF"

I tried reading your blog, but TBH rather dislike the huge BlogSpot blogs that load the entire website in a single page requiring endless scrolling. I was able to find one picture.
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