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Author Topic: [LOG] Importance of Realizing Subjective Preferences  (Read 891 times)

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DaveBSC

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Re: [LOG] Importance of Realizing Subjective Preferences
« Reply #30 on: October 11, 2012, 04:24:17 PM »

Personally I can't stand the "smooth motion" effect that TVs have. Film should be 24fps, video 30fps. When you see film at video speed, it looks like somebody's home movie footage.
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Tari

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Re: [LOG] Importance of Realizing Subjective Preferences
« Reply #31 on: October 11, 2012, 04:28:37 PM »

Shows what I know about cameras/video.  Analogy busted.
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MuppetFace

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Re: [LOG] Importance of Realizing Subjective Preferences
« Reply #32 on: October 11, 2012, 04:59:33 PM »

Yeah, that's exactly what I meant by lack of coloration becoming a coloration. Like deafening silence. It can become a distraction and sound artificial for those who are used to music being presented in a certain way.

I think a large part of it has to do with habituation. After listening to the D7100 for a week and nothing else, I got used to it, and it almost didn't seem quite as bad. As soon as I listened to the SR-007mk1 and the Paradox however I came to my senses. I think Marv's term for it is "sanity check." Personally I liken it to cleansing one's pallet when wine tasting.

When that's the only reference point one has however, then there is no pallet cleansing, and I think someone who lived with the D7100 long enough would find the Paradox arresting. However I think before long even the most tortured ears could in theory start to return to normal. The body heals itself and is always attempting to move toward equilibrium.

There is a definite emphasis on multiplicity (though it's not true multiplicity I would argue) of perspectives on head-fi: ie. the "we all hear differently" mantra. I think it's not so much a matter of our hearing differently from a biological perspective as it is a difference of personal tastes which leads to different habits. These listening habits can then, in turn, give us a different perspective which causes a parallax effect despite our looking at the same object with similar eyes. I think our expectations and preferences can filter what we hear in a Kantian sense, but also that our listening habits and choices can physically differentiate hearing by causing tolerances to build up, or, in the worst case, damage to accrue.

Which brings me to a rather interesting question: can people be taught or conditioned to "hear correctly?" I think this question would be incredibly controversial on head-fi and ruffle feathers. However let's use the example of a guy who listens to the Grado SR325is. He thinks this sounds correct and that something like the HD600 is bassy and dark and just way too colored. Could this individual in theory be trained to hear otherwise? There are many implications underlying this:

-Say he has hearing damage from the Grados. If his hearing can restore itself, even slightly, might his Grados seem harsher to him?

-The judgement of the HD600 as more colored than the Grados is an error with an objective ground. Could he learn to recognize this mistake and realize the Grados were more wildly colored? He doesn't have to give up liking the Grados; he can still enjoy them despite acknowledging they have a definite coloration.

In this case, the line between one's taste and one's hearing is a bit blurry. Often times "you have damaged hearing" has been used by individuals attempting to validate their own tastes in the face of disagreement. It feels a little cheap to employ. At the same time, one wonders: do some people like headphones like the SR325is because they have hearing damage? Or do some people have hearing damage because they like headphones like the SR325is? It's the old chicken and egg conundrum.

I think it's a little of both. However I feel there is a remainder within individuals that can't be explained away, an innate difference in tastes which just exists for one reason or another in certain individuals. This can go on to influence their behavior in a certain way, which can in turn cause their hearing to genuinely be effected and their tolerances to develop uniquely to others. In other words: we start out with differing tastes, but we should in theory be able to recognize when something is neutral and when something isn't. That assessment is free of value judgement, and one doesn't have to necessarily prefer one to the other. However given our unique tastes, we develop listening habits which can impact our perspective and lead certa in individuals to conflate or misjudge neutrality and coloration. It's the parallax shift: our starting point of reference changes, and so the potion of what we're looking at changes.
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Marvey

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Re: [LOG] Importance of Realizing Subjective Preferences
« Reply #33 on: October 11, 2012, 05:50:22 PM »

*Interesting fact: the opamp in the Mini3 that AMB couldn't get working at higher voltages (18V - specified for 3 to 24V) works absolutely fine at those voltages with suitable attention paid to implementation. Analog Devices aren't usually in the habit of flat-out lying when it comes to some of the most vital specs on their datasheets.

C'mon man, let's take this shit somewhere else. Let's just say there have been a few complaints (and I've NEVER received complaints worthy enough of reaching me until now.) I've been patient so far. You've been warned.

For the record:
  • I actually know AMB / Ti Kan in person (he doesn't hide who he is).
  • You didn't have to insinuate that Ti said AD is lying.
  • AMB board layouts (implementation) are actually very good.
  • Stop being an armchair quarterback or parroting Nwavguy's shit. Board layouts are tough, even if you are good at it. Murphy's law comes into play a lot. Don't try to make claims or misconstrue others' design decisions without fully understanding them. The mini3 is a much smaller board than the O2. There could be a lack of board space for an extra cap in the feedback loop, or maybe Ti had other reasons for running the the AD opamp at max bandwidth.
  • If you want to play the "nwavguy is god game", FWIW, the O2 layout is actually kind of shitty. PS cap right next to almost touching the regulator heat sink for example. Wasted board space, etc. Again, I'd like to see nwavguy make an amp as good as the mini3 with the same exact form-factor as the mini3. You know why he hasn't? Because he fucking can't. nwavguy cheated on this "portable" amp by making it not portable to get the performance he needed. It's funny how no one ever points out how the extra battery / voltage (and hence real-estate needed) helps ALOT on the O2 performance-wise. As car as lame car analogies that nwaguy is so fond of, it's like doubling the displacement of a motor.
Don't bother replying. As I've said, you've been warned.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 06:40:29 PM by purrin »
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rhythmdevils

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Re: [LOG] Importance of Realizing Subjective Preferences
« Reply #34 on: October 11, 2012, 06:22:09 PM »

 poo    walk the plank2
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fishski13

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Re: [LOG] Importance of Realizing Subjective Preferences
« Reply #35 on: October 12, 2012, 03:59:49 AM »

willakan,
you're full of shit.  half-truths and intellectual dishonesty don't fly here.   walk the plank2     
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maverickronin

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Re: [LOG] Importance of Realizing Subjective Preferences
« Reply #36 on: October 12, 2012, 05:36:05 AM »

WTF just happened here?
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Hroðulf

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Re: [LOG] Importance of Realizing Subjective Preferences
« Reply #37 on: October 12, 2012, 07:19:19 AM »

I'm dying to see what Justin will manage with two 9 volts. Build quality wise he already is setting a high standard.
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Willakan

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Re: [LOG] Importance of Realizing Subjective Preferences
« Reply #38 on: October 12, 2012, 07:16:24 PM »

The fuck I am replying to this, before your condescension melts a hole through my monitor (rest assured that anything below that seems condescending is just me being pissed off).
I've been away from the computer for a couple of days, and it seems my absence of a reply has led to the immediate assumption that I'm making shit up.

You've got your facts wrong:

Here's a quote from AMB himself, not taken out of context:

"Also, we have determined early on that, despite the datasheet's claim of 24V rating, the AD8397 is not stable at such voltages. It gets too hot and triggers parasitic or outright oscillations that would also cause chip-death."

Context: http://www.amb.org/forum/somebody-isnt-happy-t1094-10.html

That looks remarkably like AMB suggesting that AD is lying/being misleading, to the uninitiated. I've already said that I'm inclined to believe that this is not the case, as AD is a large company whose products go through a great deal of testing, and the voltage range is a fundamental spec. I could stop here and consider my comment vindicated...


((((((Open brackets: disregard this section if it makes you angry.

The icing on the cake:

In my private email exchanges with NwAvGuy, he stated that he had personally tested the opamp Ti used and found that it worked perfectly fine at the voltages he claimed it didn't work properly at without any other precautions other than those you would normally take with a very fast opamp. I didn't disclose that information due to the tendency for people to froth at the mouth every time NwAvGuy is mentioned.

Presumably NwAvGuy is lying/trolling/eating babies/insane, despite every major claim he's made as far as technology/performance is concerned that's been tested being vindicated...seriously, feel free to hate the guy and everything he's done, but facts will be facts...

Close brackets.)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Everything else you said is irrelevant (aside from demonstrating the obsessive urge to make everything faintly 'objectivist' about NwAvGuy and his amp). I understand that you seem to feel like (at least in this post) that you're some enlightened individual protecting TWOO AUDIO against hordes of bigoted assholes (myself obviously included), but you might want to check your facts before you go on a power trip. I actually excluded mentioning my personal exchange with NwAvGuy from my post SPECIFICALLY NOT TO PISS PEOPLE OFF, trusting that people would know/check what AMB has actually said before going mental - in hindsight, perhaps that was a mistake...

This is particularly ironic in the light of the earlier comments about 'objectivism' being about zealotry...then the fucking lynch-mob arrive...

I'm quite happy to be very polite/respect everyone's beliefs/have a civil debate, but then I get this shit! What happened to 'not being Head-Fi?'

BTW: Feel free to remove your negative karma, in light of your scrupulous open-mindedness over here...don't worry, not holding my breath...
« Last Edit: October 12, 2012, 07:41:36 PM by Willakan »
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fishski13

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Re: [LOG] Importance of Realizing Subjective Preferences
« Reply #39 on: October 12, 2012, 08:06:49 PM »

The fuck I am replying to this, before your condescension melts a hole through my monitor (rest assured that anything below that seems condescending is just me being pissed off).
I've been away from the computer for a couple of days, and it seems my absence of a reply has led to the immediate assumption that I'm making shit up.

You've got your facts wrong:

Here's a quote from AMB himself, not taken out of context:

"Also, we have determined early on that, despite the datasheet's claim of 24V rating, the AD8397 is not stable at such voltages. It gets too hot and triggers parasitic or outright oscillations that would also cause chip-death."

Context: http://www.amb.org/forum/somebody-isnt-happy-t1094-10.html

That looks remarkably like AMB suggesting that AD is lying/being misleading, to the uninitiated. I've already said that I'm inclined to believe that this is not the case, as AD is a large company whose products go through a great deal of testing, and the voltage range is a fundamental spec. I could stop here and consider my comment vindicated...


((((((Open brackets: disregard this section if it makes you angry.

The icing on the cake:

In my private email exchanges with NwAvGuy, he stated that he had personally tested the opamp Ti used and found that it worked perfectly fine at the voltages he claimed it didn't work properly at without any other precautions other than those you would normally take with a very fast opamp. I didn't disclose that information due to the tendency for people to froth at the mouth every time NwAvGuy is mentioned.

Presumably NwAvGuy is lying/trolling/eating babies/insane, despite every major claim he's made as far as technology/performance is concerned that's been tested being vindicated...seriously, feel free to hate the guy and everything he's done, but facts will be facts...

Close brackets.)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Everything else you said is irrelevant (aside from demonstrating the obsessive urge to make everything faintly 'objectivist' about NwAvGuy and his amp). I understand that you seem to feel like (at least in this post) that you're some enlightened individual protecting TWOO AUDIO against hordes of bigoted assholes (myself obviously included), but you might want to check your facts before you go on a power trip. I actually excluded mentioning my personal exchange with NwAvGuy from my post SPECIFICALLY NOT TO PISS PEOPLE OFF, trusting that people would know/check what AMB has actually said before going mental - in hindsight, perhaps that was a mistake...

This is particularly ironic in the light of the earlier comments about 'objectivism' being about zealotry...then the fucking lynch-mob arrive...

I'm quite happy to be very polite/respect everyone's beliefs/have a civil debate, but then I get this shit! What happened to 'not being Head-Fi?'

BTW: Feel free to remove your negative karma, in light of your scrupulous open-mindedness over here...don't worry, not holding my breath...

you still don't fucking get it.  your comments are laced with toxicity and twisted facts, and in no way are they vindicated.  you're going t o get called out on it.  you're taking this quote out of context and reading into it - delusional thinking.  no, it's not all about NW, but your crusade against AMB and Ti at every opportunity is an obsession for you, and then you gave the gall to whine about a so called lynch mob?  you're an asshole and have zero to contribute here.   
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