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Author Topic: [LOG] Importance of Realizing Subjective Preferences  (Read 891 times)

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maverickronin

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Re: [LOG] Importance of Realizing Subjective Preferences
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2012, 10:39:50 PM »

I think it's pretty simple.

The hard data tells you what differences actually exists.

Your experience tells you what you actually like.
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Deep Funk

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Re: [LOG] Importance of Realizing Subjective Preferences
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2012, 01:54:36 AM »

The simplest way to say this is probably that everyone has their own preferences when comparing a flawed headphone vs another but the purist will always look for pure neutrality. Neutrality/transparency when everything comes together is after all the Holy Grail and is the reason why most people stick around ausio forums getting obsessed for years in the first place.

Quite the fact, some people that are personally nice are coarse with regards to their consideration of 'neutral' and/or 'agreeable' when you don't (always) agree with them. Thankfully this forum doesn't have that.

Besides, when I think about it I know my perception and the way I process the sensory impressions are both humanly flawed thus to me it doesn't make sense to have a dogmatic regard towards what anyone regards as 'neutral'. I am just content the compromises that are the K500 and HD250 II are pleasing enough for me to stop useless consuming.
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anetode

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Re: [LOG] Importance of Realizing Subjective Preferences
« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2012, 09:15:23 PM »

It's difficult to conceive of objective and subjective as opposing paradigms when they share the same basis. What gets me about head-fi circle jerks is that so many choose to "accept" one and disregard the other. Because, staunch objectivist or whatever, how are you going to choose to disregard what you hear? Alternately, how do you stick your head in the ground and ignore the value of the scientific method in discriminating between electroacoustic transducers?

Unfortunately in order to get anywhere you have to pretty much accept both perceptual relativism and engineering, despite their apparent incongruities. It's still fair to call out shitty headphones even though there are people out there far enough from the mean to like spotlit treble or overshadowing bass. So a relativistic/still sane approach could be to say, "yes I respect your preference for this monstrosity, nonetheless these measurements demonstrate that they need to be packaged with a printed warning and not sold to kids or expectant mothers".
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Willakan

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Re: [LOG] Importance of Realizing Subjective Preferences
« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2012, 09:49:05 PM »

Again, no sane objectivist suggests that we should disregard what we hear, merely that we should see it in context.

I'll give an example: I was pretty sure, a long while ago, that I could hear differences in soundstaging between the different digital filters on my DACMagic. Under controlled conditions, I can't distinguish between them. I didn't find those things very difficult to reconcile.
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AstralStorm

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Re: [LOG] Importance of Realizing Subjective Preferences
« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2012, 11:47:51 AM »

On the first point: there's variation in biological and psychoacoustic qualities from person to person, and that would certainly play a role in how offensive someone might find the treble of a particular headphone compared to the next, which is why I define transparency more in terms of how distracting or problematic a pair of headphones sounds to the individual, which isn't a fixed target. However I think it's still meaningful to speak of general trends in that people seem to generally prefer headphones that measure better.

Specifically, measure more linear in bass and have little ringing in CSDs as well as low distortion - these criteria could be considered fully objective in the sense that more is always worse.
 :)p3

Where the ringing is most audible is probably subjective. Higher end frequency response is also somewhat hit and miss - flat sounding is best, but what consitutes that varies, since it involves actual person's hearing. For comparison purposes, the method of averaging multiple different couplers that is practiced by purrin is probably the best - the other useful result are the "positioning" measurements for headphones - these do differ at times. Tyll provides those, but there aren't enough annotations, e.g. pictures of positioning on the head/coupler.

The subjectivity is why I condone the use of equalizers and ITD/ILD simulators, such as crossfeed, personally tuned. Certain audiofools would probably want my head.
 :)p8

Quote (selected)
On the second point: I should clarify this a bit. By "denying subjective experience" I didn't mean that someone is denying the existence of subjectivity, but rather denying the objectivity of perceived difference, ie. the mantra "all amps sound the same" (which is itself a misappropriation of what nwavguy actually said if I'm not mistaken; I haven't read his blog in ages however). This would be more akin to magnifying a single standard to encompass all difference.

Yes, that's really misread. All properly designed amps sound the same. There are other qualifiers such that certain headphones are more sensitive than others to non zero output impedance or (rarely) current requirements, as well as lack of power which may lead to clipping.

There are enough misdesigned amplifiers (incl. DAPs) that are sold at high prices.
Some of them even have very nice reviews... Whether the reason is ignorance or bribery, it's not pretty.

Funny thing about nvawguy's so-called standards is that they're massive overkill for the most part, e.g. -95 dB(A) FS noise floor is usually enough to not be perceivable; linear phase error is also very hard to hear, esp. if it happens at the frequency response edges - even on the order of 30 degrees. 0.05% THD is hard to notice as well, even in the best sensitivity range, especially since most transducers have much more.

His recommendations are for a perfect amplifier - since it can be achieved relatively cheaply, why not do that?
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Re: [LOG] Importance of Realizing Subjective Preferences
« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2012, 12:36:26 PM »

 facepalm
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DaveBSC

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Re: [LOG] Importance of Realizing Subjective Preferences
« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2012, 01:01:50 PM »

Quote from: AstralStorm link=topic=561.msg11426#msg11426

Yes, that's really misread. All properly designed amps sound the same. There are other qualifiers such that certain headphones are more sensitive than others to non zero output impedance or (rarely) current requirements, as well as lack of power which may lead to clipping.

His recommendations are for a perfect amplifier - since it can be achieved relatively cheaply, why not do that?

Wow, there sure are A LOT OF IDIOTS building amps then, huh? Can you explain what "proper" is? Why does Accuphase build two different lines of amplifiers using Class A and A/B topologies? Which one is "proper"? Why do they think their own amps sound different? Bunch or morons there?

Really amazing that there are so many stupid engineers wasting so many resources trying to reach perfection in their circuits, when all they had to do was reach a below audible distortion threshold and they're done! So easy!
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AstralStorm

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Re: [LOG] Importance of Realizing Subjective Preferences
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2012, 02:54:07 PM »

Class A vs AB is a pissing match. The latter is more efficient, but obviously harder to design without introducing undue amounts of crossover distortion. It's however been done to death so there's not much you can do other than properly implement it and correctly layout the PCB (which is also some hard work). In short: class AB is easier to mess up - also obviously the topology of choice for portable amplifiers.

I haven't heard or measured Accuphase amplifiers - my bet for the two lines is to keep audiophile customers, who have undue hatred of anything that's not class A, happy.
Also these seem to be speaker amplifiers - esp. the high powered ones are still somewhat of an art to keep noise free.
Although there are very few applications that warrant a 1200 W amplifier or even a 100 W/channel one. I especially love the fact that their AAVA "magic" preamp tech is a digital current mode volume control (can be also done in one good IC; or two and you get ADC + DAC package deal) and the use of marketing bling like PTFE/glass laminate for the PCB in some devices. I bet that has a huge effect on sound... not.
There's a fine line between great engineering and non-essential cost. I bet those have 10000% margin on them.

Headphone amplifiers are far easier still, yet there's even more junk around.
It's have not called the people dumb - so many amps are just unduly overly expensive and quite comparable to the limits of measurement, much less hearing.
However, certain popular amplifiers and DACs have serious flaws - mostly exposed by balanced armature IEMs though and not headphones.

(For instance, a score of FiiO get unstable - definitely E9 and E17. Hifiman HM-801 DAP has an amp that has huge amounts of high end rolloff, obviously broken reconstruction filter. Many amplifiers, including certain well regarded portable ones, have in excess of 10 Ohm output impedance causing problems with low impedance headphones and especially BA IEMs.)
« Last Edit: October 10, 2012, 03:28:04 PM by AstralStorm »
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MuppetFace

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Re: [LOG] Importance of Realizing Subjective Preferences
« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2012, 04:58:27 PM »

Alright guys, I think I need to step in any play den mother for a minute.

The last thing this place needs is an objectivist v. subjectivist bullshit thread. It's a tired debate, and frankly no one is going to convince anyone else of anything, and people are going to end up going in circles recycling the same stale arguments ad nauseam.

No one here wants to hear about how "perfect" the O2 is. Save the Gospel of Nwavguy for head-fi's sound science forum.

The point of this thread is the discussion of why some people choose coloration over neutrality, and it's also to a lesser extent about the possibility of "walking the middle ground" and accepting both the legitimacy of objective measurements while still maintaining one's preferences.

This thread isn't about objectivism being superior to subjectivism or how to make a "proper" amp or headphone.
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Re: [LOG] Importance of Realizing Subjective Preferences
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2012, 06:03:47 PM »

All properly designed amps sound the same.

So if one were to DBT an audible difference between the O2 and B22, which would be the improperly designed one?


Edit - Sorry MF.   p:/
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