As usual, read from the bottom because this is a cleaned up shoutbox log. Posting this because I personally think further discussion on the topic can be had, and it'd be pretty interesting.
anetode: it's distortion figures are low enough to suggest considerable latitude in eq. on the other hand.
DaveBSC: Didn't try EQ no, I was using my old CD transport. It's possible that I would've liked the 007 more with some EQ, I don't know how well it responds to that.
electropop: Now a rabid dawg modded HD800, I'm really tempted... Though I don't really need headphones at home at the moment.
electropop: Still, they were uncannily similar. But from even looking at the graphs, I wouldn't draw such a contrast between the HD700 and HD800..
electropop: You're right about the senn comparison RD, it wasn't fair overall. It was one album, not track, even if I said otherwise. It did have some electronic ambiance set in, but quite one note. You know how those typical audiophile acoustic reference albums are, exactly what you said, limited in FR. Basically those sharp plucks accentuated a la grado and people are gasming..
anetode: though if hi-fi man ever has a jade successor built to better specs
anetode: unfortunately i don't think that the sage stax engineers really care much about competition over the low end. they have their own philosophy
anetode: that's the apparent consensus, though, as you said, further development of the two techs might overcome those preconceptions
rhythmdevils: But I think orthos will always have better bass potential and stats better speed/air/treble abilities
anetode: forgoing audiophile etiquette, dave, have you tried eq? i think that in a comparison of bass quality at even fr between an ortho and a stat that stas can easily hold their own
rhythmdevils: I think if companies keep working on the two tech's they will converge, orthos gaining more air and speed, and stats gaining more impact. Not sure if it will happen though
DaveBSC: In most traditional audiophile qualities the 007 is the superior headphone. In a bass fight team ortho is going to win against team estat, I don't think I'm shocking anyone here.
DaveBSC: I think it's more of a matter of playing to the 007's strengths. Acoustic bass from well recorded albums? Yes, absolutely. Everything is there, unlike say an open AKG or Audio-Technica. Palm muted down-tuned guitars and electric bass from moderate at best, dynamically compressed recordings? No, that's not an 007 strength.
rhythmdevils: Isn't it more than FR though Dave? Is'nt it partly because of the airy nature of stats that aren't as good at conveying impact?
DaveBSC: I'm not saying it's bass deficient, but it has some roll off in the bass that is inherent to it. It's in the FR measurements, it's not like I'm making it up. Whether what it does have is enough is up to the individual, but it's not a "flat" headphone.
rhythmdevils: I think the bassheads are pretty harmless because IME they are more aware of what they actually want, they know they like coloration. I totally agree with your thoughts on the treblehead stage MF, I've come to the same conclusion though you worded it really well. But the real crazy thing IMO is asserting that because something like the SA5000 is detailed and clear sounding, it is neutral. There's no awareness of personal preference there. Which is partly why everything gets so crazy, because everyone thinks their preferences are some kind of divine truth
catscratch: oh, i agree that the 007 CAN sound dull, and it's not a great low-volume phone. It doesn't HAVE to sound dull though. Really quite far from it. It's too transparent for its own good an
d is a pain in the ass to system match properly as a result. But that's going to be the case for ANYTHING this transparent.
DaveBSC: This is just my opinion, but I don't think the 007 renders palm mutes or heavy electric bass guitar with anything like the amount of realism that the Paradox does.
MuppetFace: I love the Paradox, but "stomps" the SR-007? Naaaah. LOL. It's cool though. The chat box is too chaotic right now. I need to get back to work.
DaveBSC: I absolutely loved it with my jazz albums. With metal, I think the Paradox stomps all over it.
DaveBSC: The 007 does improve at higher volumes, I will definitely agree with that. Sub 70dB I found it a bit boring. Despite being a bit dark on top I did not find it to be forgiving of average to poor recordings
catscratch: i've heard the 007 sound too polite with the bh, and not polite with a bh, all from a source swap... and it's my favotie metal phone... mind you, i like the 007 for everything
RudeWolf: They have forgotten what "good" sounds for the most part.
DaveBSC: And that's with a KGSSHV, not some SRM-323
catscratch: people just odn't know what neutral sounds like for the most part
DaveBSC: It depends on the genre. With suitable source material, the 007 is fantastic. It's not a heavy metal headphone.
catscratch: elwhere, too
catscratch: also the moar treble = moar neutral thing is still true on hf to a pretty good extent
catscratch: all in the source... amp as well of course but source matters with the 007 as much as anything
MuppetFace: I honestly don't know what to think when someone says the SR-007 is deficient in bass.
anetode: at low-to-medium volumes, yeah, it fades on the very low end
RudeWolf: Actually one of the things I enjoy with headphones bass wise is the ability to go very low with minimal distortion. At least compared to many mainstream speakers.
DaveBSC: The Paradox is largely flat and it seems to take any genre you can throw at it in stride. If the music is inherently bassy it plays right along. The 007 doesn't.
anetode: really? i think the 007s are my favorite high-volume cans because they come alive and offer up ample slam without any harshness
anetode: & again, delineate between "deluded" and "inexperienced"
DaveBSC: the bass IS shelved on those, don't kid yourself
DaveBSC: I found the 007 to lack impact with aggressive genres
anetode: but i agree on the common mistakes of first impressions, neutral headphones don't impress like treble peaks or bass bumps
MuppetFace: They're deluded when they start talking about well balanced headphones being deficient because of a lack of bloated bass, yes. I have no qualms with people liking bassy headphones. I like the Edition 9 for what it is. The DX1000 and D7000 are okay. The TH900 is exceptional, but bassy. However saying neutral headphones are boring is just asinine in my opinion, and means more than anything that one is listening to their headphones more than their music. If something is bassy, it comes through beautifully on a pair of Stax as such. Again that's my opinion, and who knows, I could just be talking out of my ass as usual.
anetode: personally, i found the stock t50rp boring because of a mid-forward sound sig. i'd take a bit of a smile eq over that
anetode: so bassheads are only deluded when they make headphone recommendations i would say that might be true if they were aware of what they were missing with good, even full-range headphones
MuppetFace: Anyway, my original point wasn't even about bass or treble or bass versus treble or orgasms. It was about the ideology of "neutral = boring" and how people listen to headphones like Stax or the Paradox, the best headphones out there IMO, and say &q
uot;needs moar bass!"
MuppetFace: Dave brought up a good point: headphones aren't going to reproduce the full-bodied throb of speakers, that literal physicality that one gets. Having a bloated bass in headphones isn't going to reproduce that sensual, orgasmic quality. It's only going to muddy everything and turn it into a mess.
MuppetFace: I'm well aware of the hypnotic and transcendent effects of rhythms and their cultural precedent. I'm not saying bassheads are deluded. I'm saying that people who use that to justify terrible headphones are deluded.
anetode: it's not that bassheads are deluded, they just don't care. they know what they like
anetode: bass-heavy is accessible, an almost instinctual drive to worship rhythm. it depends on what you're trying to get out of music
MuppetFace: I'm just speaking from my own perspective. Honestly, it's all part of the head-fi game.
MuppetFace: After you've cut yourself so many times, you start to like it. You don't really feel the pain like you did on fresh skin.
anetode: oh sure, blame it on zee germans
MuppetFace: My point was that, to me, mistaking treble tilt for neutrality and detail is more readily understandable, less of a leap in logic though no less incorrect. However the basshead fantasy of tapping into music's soul through bloated, all-consuming bass seems a more severe delusion to my way of thinking.
MuppetFace: Oh, I know about the BS with the K701, though I wasn't around / registered on HF at the time. Like I was saying, the treble tilt phenomena is definitely part of the old guard before HF's explosion, though now it's become a hallmark of the new "audiophile" consumer category, mostly lead by the Germans.
rhythmdevils: It was literally "moar treble = moar neutral". It's much more balanced now. The bassheads are for the most part aware of their preferences so it's pretty different IMO
rhythmdevils: MF I don't think you got a good enough taste of the extreme treble bias on HF from 2006-2008 or 09. No one understood that emphasized treble gives more sense of clarity. The K701 was commonly thought of as the most neutral headphone and even the HD600 was rolled off and bassy
DaveBSC: The ES10 utterly, utterly fails with acoustic music. Such a one note headphone that its hilarious.
MuppetFace: I've been collecting vinyl since college. I guess I got into it through that: turntables, pre-amps, cartridges. I started researching headphones because I couldn't have speakers with roommates around. Then I just sort of got into collecting headphones for some reason.
rhythmdevils: When did you get reeled into HF muppet?
MuppetFace: Though the D7100 is shaping up to be my new arch nemesis (granted, I didn't actually buy one...). It can't even do acoustic music well LOL.
MuppetFace: Also my arch nemesis, the K550...
MuppetFace: The Ed. 10 actually sounds pretty amazing with acoustic music out of a simple DAP.
Analixus: Though if you hear a phone at a public show the ambient should be loud enough to force you to crank the volume and the HD700 should be spotlit pretty well.
rhythmdevils: You could use a frickin Gilmore lite and still wind up thining the HD700 was better with a test like that. I'm sure there's some souless audiophile recording that makes the ED10 sound great
purrin: That track makes the SRH1440 sound decent.
purrin: Otherwise may as well play Patricia Barber Modern Cool Track #7 on everything.
Analixus: I bet the amp is colored. A few things I read seemed to suggest there would be some sort of synergized tuning. Senn also isn't going to setup their gear to point out flaws but hide them. Plus low volume listening can make the capabilities of a transduc
er sound moe similar than they truly are.
purrin: This is why I always have a bag a tricks. A set of recordings which are marginal an will reveal flaws in less than ideal systems.
purrin: You can't tell jack with acoustic music. Very limited bandwidth. In fact, the HD700 would probably make some kinds of acoustic music sound better. I'm sure Senn did this for the exact same reasons why the MegaBuck audiophile companies refused Anax's playlist. I heard $200K systems just fall apart when real music was put through them.
MuppetFace: Yeah, the HD700 handles well recorded acoustic music well enough. Sounds a little lifeless compared to the HD800 (midrange sounds flat to my ears). But hell, well recorded acoustic music sounds pretty amazing on the Edition 10 even.
rhythmdevils: Actually there's a 4th problem, that acoustic music often has such limited frequency response.
MuppetFace: If he listened to the HD700 and HD800 side-by-side and didn't hear much difference however, I am curious as to how much Senn's new amp could be playing a role in that. On some amps the difference between the two is less apparent (usually poor synergistic matches for the HD800). Which would be hilarious if Senn's new amp wasn't a very good choice for the HD800.
rhythmdevils: There's 3 things wrong with this listening test. 1. only one recording. You could find a recording that would sound good on any headphone. 2. a good recording, you're better off with a mediocre or bad one for testing a headphone 3. a recording you don't know makes it even more meaningless
MuppetFace: I'm curious as to how much the new Sennheiser flagship amp "tames" the HD700. Also whether Sennheiser's own amp can really bring out the strengths of the HD800. Would be funny if it blunted its capabilities.
rhythmdevils: electropop, you answered your own question. You can't judge a headphone with an acoustic recording (probably a great recording too) that you're not familiar with come on. Absolutely meaningless.
electropop: Managed to compare HD700 to a HD800, albeit with relatively simple acoustic music with which I'm not familiar.. They were plugged to the new Sennheiser flagship dac/amp. I can't wrap my head around the fact that the HD800, with apparent weaknesses, is on the booty board, while HD700 is flamed to hell by everyone here. They performed more on a similar level than not.
RudeWolf: In other news- been poking around my Dynalo for the last two days. Found out that at the last step of JT it goes all bonkers with output stage currents jumping all aver the place. Had a nasty suspicion that it might be self inducing at ultrasonic freq. In the end it turned out that the last step On the JT opens the input completely so I soldered a 4x2,2k resistor snake from input to ground. All good now.
MuppetFace: So... I've accepted a new teaching position. I'm going to be moving to a whole 'nother state. I'm really excited, but also nervous. Maybe even scared shitless a bit.
MuppetFace: Listening to the new Flying Lotus album with the Stax 4070. Plenty of impact.
DaveBSC: Could be. A lot of speakers have a boost in the lower mid-bass or use port tuning as a stand in for deep bass, and trying to recapture that would lead to excessively bassy headphones.
MuppetFace: I think that some people are trying to reclaim that sense of speaker impact by boosting the bass.
DaveBSC: When you are used to a subwoofer that is several dB higher than the main signal, or a car stereo with the bass at +5, a balanced headphone like the Paradox will sound weak, when actually its bass is full and balanced and extremely well textured.
DaveBSC: I think the subwoofer has a lot to do with it to. The vast majority of speakers are bass light, they begin rolling heavily anywhere from 60-30
Hz. When you add a subwoofer, you are in charge of the level vs. the main signal, and most people have no idea how to integrate one.
MuppetFace: The treble head might say "oh this headphone lacks detail." Which is easier to disprove by pointing to coloration falsely emphasizing detail; when someone says "this is boring" it's a matter of opinion, and harder to counter because someone can invoke bullshit about "the soul of music" and the like.
MuppetFace: However here's why I say "moar bass" is more of a distortion relative to treble tilt: those who love trebly headphone are less likely to consider a proper balanced headphone (ie. Paradox) problematic. They're more likely in my experience to not miss that "bite" (as they call it). The bass-case on the other hand is more likely to say the Paradox is boring, and seems to offer more resistance to listening to good headphones. So not only do they like a distorted headphone, they actively *dislike* that which is properly tuned. It's the presence of a double action, not just the sin of omission.
MuppetFace: It's definitely another side of the same underlying problem: marketing. Wish fulfillment. Drift.
MuppetFace: What treble tilt does is allow these newbies a chance to "play audiophile" and act like they're going from Beats to high fidelity by buying, say, an HD700.
MuppetFace: I'm not so sure "moar bass" is more recent, but I do think it's a function of head-fi's growing appeal. "Moar bass" is more a function of the "average consumer" or person coming in from popular marketing like Beats and other celebrity headphones. Treble tilt, on the other hand, is more of the old elitist audiophile stuff. BUT I also think the treble tilt emphasis is new as well. Look back a few years, and you'll see an exponential increase in trebly headphones.
Tari: The discussion on the "History of the K1000" thread is getting really interesting. [link]
http://www.head-fi.org/t/57805/history-of-the-akg-k1000/30#post_8755962rhythmdevils: If youre aware of that than you are ahead of the pack!
electropop: I'd still take an upward tilt rather than downward one...
