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Author Topic: HD800 Variability Measurements Starting with Jason's HD800  (Read 15568 times)

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Anaxilus.

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Re: HD800 Variability Measurements Starting with Jason's HD800
« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2012, 12:45:21 AM »

I don't understand why the measurements from goldenears website, look
much worse. There must be a problem with their setup ?
That spike and resonance @ 2.5khz doesn't even exist on most if not all charts.  I certainly don't hear it at all as I'm extremely prone to vocal sibilance w/ phones that highlight it.  You have drop the floor below -50dB to get anything remotely similar for the HD800 CSD but the spike is still is a mystery.  Some kind of artifact or error.


I want to say he measured a K701 and labelled the wrong phone.  Who knows.
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rhythmdevils

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Re: HD800 Variability Measurements Starting with Jason's HD800
« Reply #21 on: October 01, 2012, 02:53:30 AM »

Marv can explain this better, but not only do they pickup resonances where there clearly are none, and not pick up resonances where they clearly exist, he also starts the measurement at random times, so the initial "plataeu" that represents transient response is completely innacurate.  Makes some headphones look like the driver got stuck. 

compare their M50 measurements to Marv's and you will never want to see another one of theirs again.  No headphone could be that slow...
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Anaxilus.

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Re: HD800 Variability Measurements Starting with Jason's HD800
« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2013, 01:52:18 AM »

I'm getting sick of all this BS "My HD800 response graph shows I don't have the 6khz peak!"  It's seems people have forgotten of don't know that the target curve of the the HD800 HAS the 6khz peak by design.  So if your graph doesn't have one it means one of three things.  Your non 6k headphone has a design flaw.  They changed the target curve and never updated the marketing material.  The newer measurements  are rigged.  Our tests of over 6 different HD800s (from new to old) seems to suggest the latter is the most likely. 

This conclusion is based on two things.  One, every new phone we measured that came with chart provided by Senn w/o the peak showed a peak on our gear just like all the rest.  Two, we were able to replicate the newer Senn curves by altering placement of the headphones by a relatively few mm from reference placement.

Pic of the Target Reference curve:

General specs:

_______

As for the theory of audible differences between new and old, it seems according to Mike at Headfonia, early bass light versions of the HD800 had earpads that were thinner with a larger internal volume compared to current pads.  The pics of his old pads seem completely unlike any I have seen and have yet to see to confirm if this is the case.  So it is another hypothetical as far as I'm concerned till proven otherwise.  Be aware too, HD800 cups are large and it might be possible for a small head to not get a proper seal to ensure low end response.  Upstream differences relative to audition instances are the other obvious variable. 
« Last Edit: February 26, 2013, 02:33:56 AM by Analixus »
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twifosp

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Re: HD800 Variability Measurements Starting with Jason's HD800
« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2013, 02:32:48 AM »

Cool thanks for the info.  It's good to be set straight by people who can measure several and show that the tolerances are low.
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Marvey

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Re: HD800 Variability Measurements Starting with Jason's HD800
« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2013, 04:07:44 AM »

LOL, the HD800s I've measured were remarkably consistent. I don't know how Sennheiser gets their graphs. I assume that random technicians (who also moonlight as disgruntled euro youth protesting at G8 summits) haphazardly slap on the HD800s on the measurement heads and take a quick reading. I've measured the HD800 so much that I actually have precise guide marks on the measurement apparatus specially for the HD800.
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Re: HD800 Variability Measurements Starting with Jason's HD800
« Reply #25 on: February 26, 2013, 06:21:00 AM »

I don't know how Sennheiser gets their graphs.

By the looks of it they use narrow-band noise, at least that would explain the stepped 'target' plot.
These measurement types 'remove' sharp peaks and dips in a 'smoothing' way and the filter bands are similar to the 'bands' our own hearing is 'divided' in.
They also use diffuse field compensation.
It is actually a good way to measure speakers as well as narrow resonances are equalized, better than sine-wave sweeps.
Deviations around the target are allowed, meaning they can measure differently a bit from sample to sample, so variances (not too big) are likely to exist.
Even Sennheiser is not able to make them all exactly the same as there are too many mechanical variables.
Sennheiser (like a lot of other brands) is also known to make small changes during production over the years.

It is clearly stated on the box you can download the actual measurements made by them of your individual HP (and they probably aren't measured after thousand hours of burn in and with fresh pads) and since you guys have the serial numbers perhaps download and compare...
That could be a fun exercise and since these are all measured on the same rig in the same way under the same conditions this could tell something about the spread in production.
Doesn't mean they aren't excellent headphones.

Of course Purrin has a good point about different people and perhaps different positions on the head.
I assume Sennheiser is aware of this though.

Note all of the above is speculation on my part and not based on actual facts.
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Anaxilus.

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Re: HD800 Variability Measurements Starting with Jason's HD800
« Reply #26 on: February 26, 2013, 06:45:23 AM »

I don't know how Sennheiser gets their graphs.
By the looks of it they use narrow-band noise, at least that would explain the stepped 'target' plot.

No it doesn't.  Purrin can do the same thing by manipulating the graph to be a stepped visualization.  He doesn't for obvious reasons.
 
These measurement types 'remove' sharp peaks and dips in a 'smoothing' way and the filter bands are similar to the 'bands' our own hearing is 'divided' in.

They also accentuate contrasts that are not as severe as they actually are.  But yes, they can 'disguise' issues but it's nothing as bad as severe smoothing that some ToTL phones use.  Here is an original LCD2 r.1 according to their old standards:


They also use diffuse field compensation.

The charts we have correlated to our measures very well w/ the exception of the 6khz peak disappearing on some newer ones.

Even Sennheiser is not able to make them all exactly the same as there are too many mechanical variables.
Sennheiser (like a lot of other brands) is also known to make small changes during production over the years.

All the HD800s we've tested measure incredibly similar and are far more consistent than most any other phone I can recall off the top of my head.  Channel matching is typically superb as well.

It is clearly stated on the box you can download the actual measurements made by them of your individual HP (and they probably aren't measured after thousand hours of burn in and with fresh pads) and since you guys have the serial numbers perhaps download and compare...

You can't 'download' them unless this is a recent thing.  You have to request the charts be sent via snail mail in hard copy.  Which we have correlated for most of our samples.

That could be a fun exercise and since these are all measured on the same rig in the same way under the same conditions this could tell something about the spread in production.

Exercise complete. http://www.head-fi.org/t/433059/sennheiser-hd800-certificate-for-frequency-response-arrived/330#post_8662946

Of course Purrin has a good point about different people and perhaps different positions on the head.

Ahem.  Now I know how MF feels.  ;)

Note all of the above is speculation on my part and not based on actual facts.

 :)p5
« Last Edit: February 26, 2013, 07:07:26 AM by Analixus »
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Re: HD800 Variability Measurements Starting with Jason's HD800
« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2013, 01:12:40 PM »

Here is the Response Graph for my HD800's. Ser # 20521

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Anaxilus.

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Re: HD800 Variability Measurements Starting with Jason's HD800
« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2013, 07:09:12 PM »

Thanks.  So we can confirm that all new graphs have the 6khz peak neutered even though they all measure having the peak when tested independently.  Yes, we haven't measured yours but all the new batches we have are basically the same at 6khz.  Nobody is special except for the luck of having .5-1.0 dB less at the peak or .5-1.0 dB more in the mids.  That's it. 

I dare anyone to send us a HD800 without a 6khz peak.  If your HD800 doesn't have one, we'll cover shipping both ways.  If it does, you cover shipping both ways.

Sorry, the new graphs are deliberately misrepresentative relative to their old measurement standard.  When you don't like the score, you change the rules of the game.

Sennheiser should do what Audeze did and start printing randomized serial numbers to stop this nonsense.
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Marvey

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Re: HD800 Variability Measurements Starting with Jason's HD800
« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2013, 07:55:21 PM »

Remind me to post that on HF
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