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Author Topic: Sennheiser HD650 CSD Waterfall Plots  (Read 21857 times)

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Marvey

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Re: Sennheiser HD650 CSD Waterfall Plots
« Reply #40 on: December 23, 2014, 08:35:26 PM »

That's the way they measured. You have to realize there were different versions of the HD650 driver. Also, the age of the pads do make a difference.

See HD650 redux (another HD650 set) measurements here: http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,469.msg8386.html#msg8386
Done on the exact same measurement rig. No "Marianna" trench.



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OJneg

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Re: Sennheiser HD650 CSD Waterfall Plots
« Reply #41 on: December 23, 2014, 08:38:56 PM »

My purpose is to capture relative differences.

And your measurements/graphs still fail in that regard. You can use a potato to record headphones and if the results are bad in an "absolute" sense they won't tell you much in the way of relative differences. The fact that the only variable being switched out is the headphone doesn't change this.
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transparent201

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Re: Sennheiser HD650 CSD Waterfall Plots
« Reply #42 on: December 23, 2014, 09:05:04 PM »

http://realtraps.com/art_microphones.htm
Is "Rat Suck" bad; Yes it is, but not potato bad and definitely not particularly bad for the frequency range of interest(100Hz to ~10.000Hz) and the aforementioned purpose(FR differences).

@Marvey
We had this discussion before. I acknowledge the facts concerning HD650. OTOH, your dt990 pro measurements, which remain almost the same through time(I bought recently another 990pro which sounds almost the same as the one I had years before), indicate huge amounts of treble energy beyond 5Khz(~12db), which if corrected results in a blanketed sound on both of my 990 sets. Also your measurements show some sharp dips(4Khz and 6Khz IIRC) whereas headphoneinfo(professional equipment used) and personalaudio.ru don't reveal any problem. Moreover, personalaudio.ru shows a strong rise in volume from 3Khz upwards, whereas headphoneinfo shows the exact opposite until 6-8Khz(pictures from both sites indicate ear pads in good condition).

The question remains. Which measurement should we trust? Matters become worse when you start comparing relative headphone differences among different sites(let alone HD650).

p.s: I forgot to ask you, if you are using dummy ears.
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Marvey

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Re: Sennheiser HD650 CSD Waterfall Plots
« Reply #43 on: December 23, 2014, 09:19:11 PM »

DT990 are bright and bassy to my ears. I'm don't read personalaudio.ru so I cannot say much. Are their measurements smoothed in any way? Sometime smoothing will eliminate dips. Also, sometimes dips arise from interactions between coupler and headphone - wave cancellations. This phenomena is difficult to eliminate and varies among measurement rigs.

As for which to trust: You already know the answer. It's relative differences within the same framework that matter. Comparing measurements taken using different rigs is a really bad idea. As Jude says in his HF profile, different measurement rigs, different results. You can see a picture of my first iteration measurement rig if you click on Jude's profile. I'm now using a damper solid coupler with hair, ear simulators now for my V2 iteration measurements.

Any attempt to correct or compensate the measurements here to another system will result in catastrophic error and disaster. World might possibly end with floods, earthquakes, etc.
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transparent201

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Re: Sennheiser HD650 CSD Waterfall Plots
« Reply #44 on: December 23, 2014, 09:54:49 PM »

Concerning, personalaudio.ru maybe it's the second(wave cancellations in your rig), because sharp notches manifest themselves even in smoothed diagrams as shallow dips.

Quote (selected)
As for which to trust: You already know the answer. It's relative differences within the same framework that matter.

Let's say that we try to equalize dt 990 pro in order to sound like HD 650 using data only from personalaudio.ru. HD650 sounds almost totally flat(according to personal audio) so we need to make 990 pro sound flat too. We face the problem of having to reduce the treble up to 12 db starting from 4Khz. According to my experience this destroys the sound and the most relevant measurement to my perception is that of headphoneinfo and goldenears.net which show a sharp treble increase only around 10Khz. It's more of a sizzle than harsh sibilance, subjectively.

Now it's better to understand the nature of the problem. The real problem is the relative differences among frequencies of one measurement on a certain rig when compared to other measurements on different rigs.
For example, measurement A on rig A tells as that 4Khz is 4db higher than 2Khz for headphone X whereas measurement B on rig B tells us that 4Khz is 3db lower than 2Khz for the same headphone.

And thanks for the info.
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Solderdude

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Re: Sennheiser HD650 CSD Waterfall Plots
« Reply #45 on: December 23, 2014, 10:00:33 PM »

DT990 (old 600 Ohm) ARE bassy and trebly to my ears and my (yet based on other types of measurements) rig as well.
Of course my measurements too are incorrect in an absolute sense but are useful for me in a relative sense to my other measurements.
They may be useful for others as well though.
Only one person on this planet seems to have an absolute accurate (proprietary) rig but he won't be measuring the DT990 for you.  ;D



Non-smoothed and somewhat 'corrected' so that a horizontal line would sound 'flat' to my ears.
The test rig only set me back a few bucks so don't complain about inaccuracies please.

The plot basically is very similar (when smoothed) to the personal audio.ru plots.
The (extremely smoothed) plot below is from the mentioned Russian site:
http://personalaudio.ru/raa/otchety/naushniki/beyerdynamic-dt-990-600-ohm/




Since this thread is about the HD650 I'll also post what my rig 'hears' of it..... for reference sake.



For what it's worth... IMO you can't EQ the DT990 so it'll sound like an HD650. You may be able to get it closer tonally but they will still sound different.
At least that's my experience (own and EQ'ed both pretty flat). The HD650 is pretty easy to EQ really flat, the DT990 is nigh-on impossible without steep filters.
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Use your ears to enjoy music, not as an analyser.

Marvey

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Re: Sennheiser HD650 CSD Waterfall Plots
« Reply #46 on: December 23, 2014, 10:03:59 PM »

Yes, just need experience to figure it out. Measurements are a guideline, especially with headphones.

In the end, FR is only one aspect of sound. Aspects of brightness, bassy, mids sucked-out, etc. transcend simple FR measurements - which are in the frequency domain and calculated withing finite time windows. This is not how we hear. Distortion also plays a factor.

Bottom line is to train your ears on equipment where measurements can be duplicated and methods are well-known: speakers. Ultimately ears should make final decision if you want to EQ your headphones. Measurements are a tool. They are not intended to be the truth.
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transparent201

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Re: Sennheiser HD650 CSD Waterfall Plots
« Reply #47 on: December 23, 2014, 10:24:47 PM »

@Solderdude, @marvey
I expressed myself wrong by talking about emulating HD650 sound. Forget about it. I just wanted to point out that by correcting dt990 according to specific measurements(take a look at headphoneinfo which is significantly different in some regards) you get a cloudy-lifeless sound.
This shouldn't be happening, realizing the fact that fidelity is something objective, very specific and measurable(regardless of how humans perceive sounds) and fidelity involves flat FR. Even if we couldn't simulate hd650's sound(which is the most reasonable for certain reasons) there should have been an improvement.
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Solderdude

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Re: Sennheiser HD650 CSD Waterfall Plots
« Reply #48 on: December 23, 2014, 10:41:42 PM »

The FR corrected DT990 (to get nearer to flat) gave me a good (better as in improved SQ) sounding headphone.
It certainly wasn't lifeless/cloudy.
The DT990 Just did not became as good sounding as the easier to EQ HD650.

No digital EQ was used, only gentle purpose made gentle analog EQ.
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Marvey

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Re: Sennheiser HD650 CSD Waterfall Plots
« Reply #49 on: December 23, 2014, 11:03:23 PM »

This shouldn't be happening, realizing the fact that fidelity is something objective, very specific and measurable(regardless of how humans perceive sounds) and fidelity involves flat FR. Even if we couldn't simulate hd650's sound(which is the most reasonable for certain reasons) there should have been an improvement.

What specific EQ settings did you use?
Maybe you prefer the dt990 with a bit of brightness?
Maybe the dt990 driver has a tendency toward being bright and correcting it does not yield good results? Like trying to make someone who is gay straight?
Maybe your dt880 measures slightly differently than here? strong possibility here.
Maybe your subjective experience was influenced by the measurements that you took?
Maybe you have no or little idea what you are doing?

I dunno, lots of possibilities.

As an aside: Sorry, fidelity is not measurable. I'm on my my 22nd or 31st speaker project / variation now. I can tell you that fidelity is not measurable. Even if you take the trinity of FR, non-linear distortion, and CSD, that trinity only tells you 50% of what is going on.

Finally, if you want easy numbers lining up and elegant solutions that work out well, I suggest a hobby in pure mathematics below the university level. Otherwise your whining and bitching about stuff not making sense is getting annoying. I simply don't have the answers. Lots of shit doesn't make sense, even with regular ol' speaker measurements, lots of shit doesn't make sense; but you figure it out over time.
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