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Author Topic: Neutrality  (Read 11728 times)

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Marvey

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Neutrality
« on: November 26, 2011, 07:46:14 AM »

What does it mean when something is said to be neutral sounding? Well to start, neutral sounding is definitely not one of the following:
  • Something up for a vote
  • Something according one's personal preferences
  • Something that has similar tonal balance to one's favorite headphone of the month
  • Or even something that sounds most like a live performance
Neutral sounding is simply something that measures flat - that is a flat frequency response. Audio professionals and even most experienced audiophiles know this. The only reason I would even bring this topic up is to set things straight here. This is not Head-Fi, therefore personal re-interpretations and subscription to false knowledge is not acceptable.

Which leads to another important point: Take headphone frequency response graphs with a grain of salt. If they measure flat, they may be necessarily sound flat. This is because headphone measurement methodologies are still in their infancy (on the other hand, speaker measurements are not in their infancy, so we do trust their measurements.)

So how we would know if a headphone is neutral sounding? If we have trained ears, we would know. If we had a neutral reference (speakers) to compare to we would know. Even if we were experienced audiophiles, we would probably know, unless we were those insane ones lurking on the HF threads.

We may ask, if a headphone is neutral, how could some recordings sound so bad on it? Blame it on the sound engineers. But for the most part, if we listen to a wide variety of music, we will note that neutral sounding equipment tends to do the best overall.

There may be some personal preferences in play, some people may like more bass, some people may like more treble, but at the end of the day, it's important for us to understand what "neutral" really means in order to enable transmission of knowledge and avoid misunderstanding.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2011, 06:12:35 AM by purrin »
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Anaxilus.

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Re: Neutrality
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2011, 08:20:58 AM »

where's my popcorn?
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LFF

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Re: Neutrality
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2011, 07:37:51 PM »

Nice to see a post like that Purrin! So many people feel neutral can be talked about, argued about and then put up for vote.  :o
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RexAeterna

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Re: Neutrality
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2011, 10:19:23 AM »

where's my popcorn?

you really like popcorn don't you? i can't blame you. with butter it is pretty delicious...and sometimes gummie bears added is nice as well.
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khaos

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Re: Neutrality
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2011, 03:19:28 AM »

My personal hypothesis is that as far as frequency balance is concerned, a pair of neutral headphones should share the same perceived frequency balance as a pair of speakers equalized to have a measured flat frequency response at the listening position. Ideally, in a well treated room, a pair of flat (anechoic frequency response) would till measure very flat at the listening position with any further EQ.

NB: This only concerns the frequency response, the room's reflections and the speaker's directivity necessarily impact on soundstaging. I will also admit the imprecision of my definition as I don't know whether the measuring window should include the reflections or should be short enough to only capture the direct signal (the latter case wouldn't not be possible with all rooms)

I hope for some further inputs.
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RexAeterna

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Re: Neutrality
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2011, 07:15:04 PM »

My personal hypothesis is that as far as frequency balance is concerned, a pair of neutral headphones should share the same perceived frequency balance as a pair of speakers equalized to have a measured flat frequency response at the listening position. Ideally, in a well treated room, a pair of flat (anechoic frequency response) would till measure very flat at the listening position with any further EQ.

NB: This only concerns the frequency response, the room's reflections and the speaker's directivity necessarily impact on soundstaging. I will also admit the imprecision of my definition as I don't know whether the measuring window should include the reflections or should be short enough to only capture the direct signal (the latter case wouldn't not be possible with all rooms)

I hope for some further inputs.

they use to measure headphones like that, but not anymore since everything is done on computers. i know things like doby surround is based off of Diffused-field equalization standards but not headphones. they have computers that ''imitate'' frequency response of diffused-field but not measured like real diffused-field(head dummy in an 10x10 echo chamber playing 2nd/3rd octave pink noise on flat frequency response speakers).

before that they use to use free-field(head dummy measured in an anechoic chamber with flat frequency speakers). i think the sextetts were one of the few free-field equalized headphones for studio work(i have documents showing how the sextetts were measured). i know stax still uses free-field but modified version of what they believe in. i know AKG still somewhat uses diffused-field with their current 701/702 but not like their older models like the 240DF. the 240DF were equalized for German radio broadcasting IRT standards. every other company like sennheiser uses their own type of diffused-field techniques. sennheiser was gonna fellow the same diffused-field method that the 240DF took but were suggested to not fully fellow that type of measurement so they designed their own ways of measuring diffused-field.Stax made one headphone that used a diffused-field Box. the headphone was still free-field equalized but when hooked up to the box it will present the headphone with diffused-field equalization. i forgot the model but they had one.


besides, doing those techniques nowadays cost thousands or even millions(well by today standards due to how much the dollar is worth compare to the 70's and early 80's where they had the freedom to experiment with no cost restrictions)and lots of time and study. that's why headphones like Stax cost so much. they use to measure headphones in acoustic chambers but not anymore. only speakers are measured in acoustic chambers nowadays. only headphones i know of is sennheiser ''reference/audiophile'' line-up and i believe the Beyer DT48s(another diffused-field headphone) is measured same way when it comes to dynamics. electrostatics are still and will always be measured in a free-field. only other dynamic besides the sextetts was the K1000 that was measured in a free-field.
 
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rhythmdevils

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Re: Neutrality
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2011, 08:55:53 PM »

But those headphones all sound so different.  Even within the same brand, the Sextett and K1000 sound miles and miles apart. 
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RexAeterna

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Re: Neutrality
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2011, 11:53:20 PM »

i know. just mentioning they both used free-field. stax uses free-field and all their ear speakers sound different.
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victor25

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Re: Neutrality
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2012, 09:02:25 AM »

Mastering of different cd's (targeted at different audiences) is done not only ON, but also FOR different speaker (type's). Where a good recorded classical cd might be mastered for neutral speakers, a lady gaga cd is probably mastered to also sound great on earbuds and Dre Beats. Some recordings actually sound like crap on my studio monitor's and AKG K1000, but great on cheaper speakers. I noticed that on a NAD amp I used to own, it had the 'english NAD hump', and it added some nice warmth and got rid of sibilance, actually made listening to music very enjoyable. Much like the HD650 also does this (to some extent). What I read on HF a lot, is that people buy a headphone that is too bright for their taste (or missing low-end), and then finding a bad tube amp to compensate it (I say bad, because a good tube amp shouldn't add, just amplify). The whole synergy thing is just about compensating for each component's flaws, imo. Are there any 'reference cd's', for testing audio equipment? I'm not talking about frequency sweep things (though they can be useful), but about music being mastered as neutral as possible? (which might in itself be impossible, as it is mastered on speakers as well, but let's say, some of the best monitor's available.)
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LFF

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Re: Neutrality
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2012, 05:03:37 PM »

Mastering of different cd's (targeted at different audiences) is done not only ON, but also FOR different speaker (type's). Where a good recorded classical cd might be mastered for neutral speakers, a lady gaga cd is probably mastered to also sound great on earbuds and Dre Beats. Some recordings actually sound like crap on my studio monitor's and AKG K1000, but great on cheaper speakers.

This is a common misconception....

A well mastered CD will sound good on any equipment designed to reproduce music properly. It will only sound bad if the speaker/headphone/gear is extremely colored or faulty. A Lady Gaga CD is simply mastered to sound loud because people feel that sounds better. Dynamic range can't be appreciated in a noisy car either.

The argument that there is some magical EQ curve to make music sound good on all types of equipment is BS.
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