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Author Topic: Gumby popularity  (Read 5214 times)

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AustinValentine

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Re: Gumby popularity
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2015, 02:30:54 AM »

I believe that's based on one reviewer comparing single ended output of Gumby against another dac, and everyone there glomming on that review for all its worth.

That's part of it, along with conflating accounts of the Single Ended vs Balanced differences of Mjolnir 2 and Ragnarok - whose circlotron topology makes the differences far more substantial - with Multibit Gungnir SE/Balanced differences.

Though, and I'll have to search about a bit to see if I can find it, but I do seem to remember someone mentioning a while back that the Gungnir SE outputs weren't as good as the balanced outputs.

Edit: Can't find it, and I have 50 more pages of textbook reading on cataloging theory to do tonight so fuck late night searching. The differences between SE and Balanced on the Gungnir MB are almost certainly overblown or we'd see more people complaining about it with their EC Black Widows.
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fishski13

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Re: Gumby popularity
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2015, 02:37:59 AM »

I read some jibber jabber over at HF about the gumby's single-ended outputs gimping the performance big-time.. Any truth to this?

performing meaningful line level matched comparisons between balanced/unbalanced would be a PITA without 2 Gumbys and 2 identical amplifiers side by side.

if you're worried about the extra summing circuit in the path, i assume you can bypass the unbalanced summing circuitry with an XLR to RCA cable that leaves pin 3 floating. this is how i have my DS Gungnir connected, but i would double check with Schiit in the case of the Gumby.
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Marvey

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Re: Gumby popularity
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2015, 04:59:02 AM »

I read some jibber jabber over at HF about the gumby's single-ended outputs gimping the performance big-time.. Any truth to this?

I tried balanced vs. SE. Balanced sounded slightly better, but it wasn't something I would freak out about. For Yggy or Gumby, the proper way might be an Jenson XLR to SE ISOBOX. You really do want both legs of the differential output.
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songmic

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Re: Gumby popularity
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2015, 01:58:15 PM »

I tried balanced vs. SE. Balanced sounded slightly better, but it wasn't something I would freak out about. For Yggy or Gumby, the proper way might be an Jenson XLR to SE ISOBOX. You really do want both legs of the differential output.

Here's something I don't understand. Basically, what the Jenson Isobox does (and the balanced XLR inputs of amps like BA, Studio and my L-2 amp) is not merely converting XLR to RCA but summing a pair of balanced signal to unbalanced using balanced transformers. Am I correct?

If so, isn't the RCA single-ended output signal of Yggy/Gumby also produced by summing the balanced output signal that would've otherwise gone to XLR? That there's also a pair of balanced transformers inside Yggy that handles this job?

And if so, it's only a matter of whether this "summing balanced to unbalanced" duty is handled inside the DAC right before the output, or between DAC and amp (as in the case of Jensen Isobox), or inside the amp right after the input (as in the case of stock BA/Studio/L-2)?

I remember you saying in another thread that the Jensen Isobox is just as good as the Cinemag balanced input transformers inside BA. Since you're recommending people to use this Isobox, am I safe to assume that Yggy's output balanced transformers (the ones that sum balanced output signal to unbalanced) isn't as good as external Jensen Isobox or Cinemag transformers inside the BA?

And since I'm asking this, did you hear a noticeable improvement by using Jensen Isobox between Yggy and BW? In other words, Yggy XLR output -> Jensen Isobox -> Black Widow sounds superior to Yggy RCA output -> BW?
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Marvey

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Re: Gumby popularity
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2015, 02:01:15 AM »

Haven't heard these particular small Jensen transformers, but I have heard others like their MC step-ups. They do make good stuff. There is a shared history between Jensen and Cinemag. If you ask around, you'll hear some "x is better y" neener, neener, neener crap.

The difference is whether you want transistors in the Yggy doing the summing or the Jensen/Cinmag transformers doing the summing.

I have only tried with BA and Studio. The balanced inputs sound warmer, less lean/grainy, and more lively and less flat. The increase in sound quality was about 2.376%. Whether this is worth it is up to you. The price of the Jenson PC-2XR box is nothing in Summit-Fi terms.

I have also tried the one leg of XLR approach (as suggested by the wacko who put special stickers on top of the caps), but this seemed overall worse than the Yggy's SE outputs. But I thought this was worth pointing out because people have different opinions on what sounds better.
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Anaxilus

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Re: Gumby popularity
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2015, 02:56:12 AM »

I can confirm the single leg cable solution is worse sounding than SE summed. I've tried both cable configs on Yggy and will never try that again.
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Type35

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Re: Gumby popularity
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2015, 03:37:34 PM »

Some manufacturers cut some corners to save a little and only take the positive side on the left and right XLR channels for their RCA outputs.
The proper way to do this is summing both positive and negative legs from each XLR channels. Not being the uber engineer myself, I confirmed this with a few industry guys (Jason and Mike from Schiit being in the lot) and they all agreed.
The issue is whether or not you think the summing done in the Gungnir or Yggdrasil is not good enough and that an outboard solution like the Jensen Isobox will make a substantial difference. I haven't heard the Isobox so I can't know for sure but the Jensen transformer being circa $300, it doesn't seem wise to spend a third (Gungnir D-S) or a quarter (Gungnir R2R) of the DAC budget on an outboard XLR to RCA solution.
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Thad E Ginathom

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Re: Gumby popularity
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2015, 06:22:07 PM »

The proper way to do this is summing both positive and negative legs from each XLR channels.

Not being an engineer at all, let alone uber, but this is what I understand....

Balanced and unbalanced line connections are completely different technologies. The purpose of balanced connections is to detect noise collected by the  cable and eliminate it. Summing the +ve and -ve identifies the noise.

Balanced and unbalanced gear can be connected simply by using and adaptor cable (been there, done that, recently) but it is not the right way to do it because the voltages are very different. Hence the availability of converter boxes which convert the voltage as well as the pin-outs.

right?

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kothganesh

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Re: Gumby popularity
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2015, 10:28:28 AM »

Thad, somehow adapters for SE to balanced (or vice versa) don't work well for me. I have RCA to XLR cables that I don't use anymore. I recently bought the TRRS to XLR adapter from Amazon for the GO V2 which works very well though. Let's see how the Jensen works though.
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Thad E Ginathom

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Re: Gumby popularity
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2015, 06:03:31 PM »

In an ideal world. Wait... In my ideal world, everything would be balanced.

It is absolutely completely and utterly unnecessary for the short runs of hifi-audio interconnects but, hey, it is such a superior technology. In fact, would it be fair to say that balanced connection is a technology, whereas all that RCA stuff is just an accident?

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