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Author Topic: Tell us, what do you do for a living?  (Read 7884 times)

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Xen

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Re: Tell us, what do you do for a living?
« Reply #160 on: September 25, 2015, 07:33:11 PM »

In the US high school physics usually means mechanics starting with Newton's laws, which requires an absolute grasp of algebra and eventually some calculus, so saying that other countries start with physics as freshman (13-14 years old) is extremely advanced compared to US standards.  IS that what you mean?

Caveat:  the above description was my experience many years ago in high school.

edit:  just saw that you're the physics teacher.    I see the AP curriculum has changed, just curious what countries teach their freshman physics which I assume require a grasp of algebra and calculus?
Even when I was in high school, there were 2 levels of AP Physics: Algebra-based (physics and AP Physics B) and Calculus-based (AP Physics C). In my high school in the 1980's, my physics teacher flavored his lessons with calculus, but it was still mainly algebra. I was not in AP Physics, just regular physics. Physics was pretty much an honors class as only honor students took it back then. I actually can't remember if he taught AP Physics C or just AP Physics B as a second year course.

If countries do teach real physics to their 12-14 year olds, they will teach them regular algebra-based physics with geometry (sin/cos/tan). I know I have to include trigonometry (sin/cos/tan, radians) and basic concepts of calculus (slope of a curve and area under curve) in my AP Physics 1 classes. From my experience with foreign students where I have had to make official opinions on whether a student will receive credit for physics or have to take the class: many students from big cities in China were taught real physics, 2 1 student from Egypt had real physics (over 2 years, though), 1 2 students from Saudi Arabia had physical science, and India has some with real physics and others with physical science.

From the POV of school curriculum, mastering algebra 1 is the key to teaching real physics. Countries that teach algebra 1 earlier also teach physics earlier. In Texas, there are mumblings of pushing algebraic concepts down to 6th & 7th grades and making Algebra 1 on-level for 8th grade instead of 9th grade. I think this would be a good thing, but there will be pain and a certain percentage of students are going to be classified as not-on-level (yay for PC terms!).

Due to the AP Physics revamp by the College Board, our district offers the following Physics classes:
  • regular physics (algebra-based, on-level 11th, for all students) - Kinematics, Dynamics, momentum, energy, electrostatics, electricity, DC Resistor circuits, electromagnetism (basic), geometric optics, light, sound
  • AP Physics 1 (algebra-based, on-level 11th, for all students, especially Honors) - Kinematics, Dynamics, momentum, energy, rotational mechanics, electrostatics, electricity, DC Resistor circuits, oscillations, sound
  • AP Physics 2 (algebra-based, on-level 12th, for all students who have completed a physics) - Fluid dynamics, Thermodynamics, Nuclear, Atomic, electromagnetism, capacitance, RC circuits, geometric optics
  • AP Physics C (calculus-based, on-level 12th, for all student who have completed a physics) - Kinematics, Dynamics, momentum, energy, rotational mechanics, electrostatics, electricity, capacitance, electromagnetism, magnetic induction, LR/LRC/RC/R circuits

Alignment is pretty crappy because of the wrench thrown in by College Board. In my opinion regular physics is too broad. AP Physics 1 is just a little too broad for the rigor. AP Physics 1 & 2 are great complements. AP Physics C is specialized for those interested in e ngineering.

I am surprised by all the attention, happy to keep answering and sorry for the threadjack.  :)p7
Also, time to grade...

edit: fixed some numbers.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2015, 01:07:30 AM by Xen »
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Deep Funk

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Re: Tell us, what do you do for a living?
« Reply #161 on: September 25, 2015, 11:38:06 PM »


From the POV of school curriculum, mastering algebra 1 is the key to teaching real physics. Countries that teach algebra 1 earlier also teach physics earlier. In Texas, there are mumblings of pushing algebraic concepts down to 6th & 7th grades and making Algebra 1 on-level for 8th grade instead of 9th grade. I think this would be a good thing, but there will be pain and a certain percentage of students are going to be classified as not-on-level (yay for PC terms!).


I never understood algebraic calculations and formulas until I learnt the basics of economics and (financial) accounting as a kid. Some kids pick up the abstract math in a pinch and some kids need a tea spoon. I needed a tea spoon.

Some teachers I had were so stuck in their rigid teaching method that I stopped making an effort. Not-on-level or weak-in-maths, fuck it you are not really appreciated for your efforts until you excel anyway. At Khan Academy and while fooling around with numbers I found a reason to enjoy maths again because it can be rewarding and fun.

One thing that really helps is to make the abstract more tangible and/or visual. That made me pay attention and learn again.
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knerian

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Re: Tell us, what do you do for a living?
« Reply #162 on: September 25, 2015, 11:50:11 PM »

Xen were those foreign students average status quo or advanced ahead of their class versions?  As we get super ambitious types from the immigrant pool the actual populace of China is not nearly as impressive as the immigrants who make it here.(based on my personal experience of course but it should be common sense that not everyone in China is math enhanced)

Btw thanks for the breakdown, i do find it interesting because my impression is that most HS students don't even get to physics before graduation.
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Xen

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Re: Tell us, what do you do for a living?
« Reply #163 on: September 26, 2015, 01:04:58 AM »

One thing that really helps is to make the abstract more tangible and/or visual. That made me pay attention and learn again.
At least with motion and forces, its easy to link an abstract variable to something concrete. I make them see variables as numbers, in graphs, walking it, throwing it, graphs of them walking it, graphs/numbers of them throwing it, graphs/numbers of them pushing it, etc. Labs are very important in my classes, but "lead a horse to water..." Making kids actually think and link what they are doing to the numbers and the graphs and variables is not easy for some students. Getting that last 10-15% to buy-in is very tough. I tell them why we are doing this lab and specifically make it a point to say they are to link what they see with the concepts and math that we are working on. It doesn't get more tangible than seeing displacement and velocity change in real-time as you move around a sensor.

I wish there was an optimal solution for students like you. Also, I assume you wanted to learn and that is a very important part of learning. I do point students to Khan academy and other physics tutorial sites. I encourage them to use those resources to learn. As with everything we do as humans, some will excel at self-directed learning and others require structure to even make it through.

Xen were those foreign students average status quo or advanced ahead of their class versions?  As we get super ambitious types from the immigrant pool the actual populace of China is not nearly as impressive as the immigrants who make it here.(based on my personal experience of course but it should be common sense that not everyone in China is math enhanced)

Btw thanks for the breakdown, i do find it interesting because my impression is that most HS students don't even get to physics before graduation.
Due to language, even with physics, the Chinese students do struggle. Also their physics is on par with the way I taught normal physics. I expect most of the Chinese students are coming from better socioeconomic status than the average. They are not all geniuses, but they are generally above average. The students from Egypt and Saudi Arabia seemed like normal students in capacity, above average due to maturity and work ethic. The Egyptian had an easier time since he had real physics (wanted to stay in the class). The Saudis had trouble with the math since they had some of the concepts from physical science and very little of the math.
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Mrip

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Re: Tell us, what do you do for a living?
« Reply #164 on: September 27, 2015, 01:48:16 PM »

My rural high school didn't even have AP classes. I think around 1 in 5 graduates went to college of any kind. My counselor told me to not even bother applying to elite colleges because they wouldn't take students from our school regardless of how well they had done. I still can't believe she told me that. And, she was wrong.
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DubiousMike

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Re: Tell us, what do you do for a living?
« Reply #165 on: September 27, 2015, 05:51:49 PM »


    • AP Physics C (calculus-based, on-level 12th, for all student who have completed a physics) - Kinematics, Dynamics, momentum, energy, rotational mechanics, electrostatics, electricity, capacitance, electromagnetism, magnetic induction, LR/LRC/RC/R circuits


    I took that test in '98 and goddamn if it wasn't the most difficult and humbling exam I've ever had to endure.  I had aced the underlying course at my prep school (which was taught by a Caltech prof), but I was so frustrated with the actual AP, compared to the half dozen other AP's I had knocked out with relative ease, that I only answered half of it, snapped my pencil in half, threw it off the front wall, handed in my test 90 minutes early and stormed out.  Figured it was the one AP I had bombed.  Instead, when the results came in, I got a 4 out of 5 (3 was passing at the time).  Can't imagine how badly most students must have fared that year if I got a 4.  Whoever wrote that test, particularly the E&M section, deserves a sharp stick in the eye.     

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    tomscy2000

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    Re: Tell us, what do you do for a living?
    « Reply #166 on: September 29, 2015, 03:22:36 PM »

    I took that test in '98 and goddamn if it wasn't the most difficult and humbling exam I've ever had to endure.  I had aced the underlying course at my prep school (which was taught by a Caltech prof), but I was so frustrated with the actual AP, compared to the half dozen other AP's I had knocked out with relative ease, that I only answered half of it, snapped my pencil in half, threw it off the front wall, handed in my test 90 minutes early and stormed out.  Figured it was the one AP I had bombed.  Instead, when the results came in, I got a 4 out of 5 (3 was passing at the time).  Can't imagine how badly most students must have fared that year if I got a 4.  Whoever wrote that test, particularly the E&M section, deserves a sharp stick in the eye.

    Did you go to Polytechnic School?

    My situation was (luckily) better. My AP teacher had no idea how to teach Physics C, and had no way of teaching Calculus-based Physics (the only way to teach Physics, if you ask me), so I had to study on my own. I came out of the test thinking I'd be luckily if I got a 3, but ended up with 5s on both sections. (I think that counts as a humblebrag, whoops)
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    DubiousMike

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    Re: Tell us, what do you do for a living?
    « Reply #167 on: October 01, 2015, 05:42:06 PM »

    Did you go to Polytechnic School?

    My situation was (luckily) better. My AP teacher had no idea how to teach Physics C, and had no way of teaching Calculus-based Physics (the only way to teach Physics, if you ask me), so I had to study on my own. I came out of the test thinking I'd be luckily if I got a 3, but ended up with 5s on both sections. (I think that counts as a humblebrag, whoops)

    Very nice - that certainly is not material I could have taught myself at that age (or now frankly), so a "humblebrag" is totally appropriate in my view! 

    I did indeed go to Poly - which was a good experience overall, subject to the caveat that it was priced within the realm of reason back then.  Now it is >$25k for kindergarten and goes up from there.  The teachers were generally quite good (although not all of them), and the extracurriculars were excellent, but socially it was a mess even back then, with too much old money influence.  I won't be sending my kids there.
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    Kunlun

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    Re: Tell us, what do you do for a living?
    « Reply #168 on: October 02, 2015, 11:52:37 PM »

    I bathe myself with my tongue and sleep 18-22 hours a day.
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    Thad E Ginathom

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    Re: Tell us, what do you do for a living?
    « Reply #169 on: October 03, 2015, 01:13:25 PM »

    And get sponsored by the blue-and-yellow-spot knickers company?

    Sounds good to me!
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