Topic: How-To Make Good Needledrops (Read 1548 times)

Thad E Ginathom · « **Reply #10 on:** August 17, 2015, 09:44:03 AM »

I used to use soap and water. Then I moved on to a more standard mix of IPA and water with a drop of detergent in it, as recommended by some more serious digitisers. I use the same stuff for cleaning my glasses!

My original (well, not first, but the final step in internal) soundcard was an RME. I was deeply fond of it, as it introduced me to the computer as hifi, but a decade later, something has aged and it makes some odd sounds sometimes (same applies to me). I moved external with an Echo Audiofire 2.

I loved Cool Edit Pro software. Absolutely simple and straightforward to use, but also powerful. Adobe turned it into a monstrosity, and I moved to Linux anyway. CEP would work with Wine at a pinch, but not always reliably. That left me with not much to choose from other than Audacity. "Intuitive" could be defined as "what any individual is used to." CEP was always "intuitive" to me; Audacity not so much so.

But, in the end, vinyl ripping is a labour of love, and, unless the LPs are in superb condition, labour really is the word. A house without a turntable is not a home... but a large part of my reason for having gone exclusively digital is that, from the second time I remove an LP from its sleeve, it is no longer perfect and only gets worse. Somehow, I find some of the imperfections of vinyl ok when I am listening to vinyl, but less so when I am listening to the digital file*, so my preferred method of digitising, these days, is to benefit from the work of someone who has a good copy and is a genius at transforming it --- or just buy a digital source. Yes, I've heard CD "versions" that don't even sound like the same album, but I seem to be very lucky in the ones that I have.

*The other side of that coin is that I have become so used to some imperfections that they become part of the experience of listening to that record and it comes as a shock not to hear them!

Azteca X · « **Reply #11 on:** August 17, 2015, 01:40:09 PM »

Quote from: DaveBSC on August 16, 2015, 11:20:00 PM

The ultrasonic cleaners are cool, but the prices are ridiculous.

The DIY route (lots of good stuff in this thread):
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/analogue-source/218276-my-version-ultrasonic-record-cleaner-99.html#post4226898

And this dude, who I discovered from the thread, is legit:
http://vibratollc.com/new-products.html
https://www.tindie.com/stores/VibratoLLC/

burnspbesq · « **Reply #12 on:** August 17, 2015, 04:34:24 PM »

As far as cleaners are concerned, until I can afford an Audio Desk Systeme, I can get by nicely with a Spin-Clean, TYVM.

The Hilo's A/D conversion capabilities are what attracted me to it in the first place. I get what I consider to be very nice results with my mid-fi vinyl rig (Rega RP3/Sumiko Blackbird/Whest Two) into the Hilo. I use Pure Vinyl for ripping, outputting 192/24 AIFF, and use Audacity for cleanup and inserting track information for subsequent editing in iTunes. I spent the money for iZotope Rx3, but have never invested the time to master its confusing UI.

Skyline · « **Reply #13 on:** August 17, 2015, 04:43:50 PM »

I quickly decided that ripping vinyl was too time consuming and too expensive to work for me.

I didn't get BAD results, per se. But, just knowing that I could do better always haunted me.

On that note, I've got a Project USB V: http://www.project-audio.com/main.php?prod=phonoboxusbv

If anyone is interested in getting into ripping, I'd be willing to do a straight trade of this for something like the Schiit Mani.

As for record cleaning, I've got the Spin Clean. It gets the job done well enough for general listening purposes.

Thad E Ginathom · « **Reply #14 on:** August 17, 2015, 05:15:36 PM »

I used to use the phono stage built into the integrated amp (in those days, they all had one) and, not surprisingly, the digitised result sounded pretty much like playing the record.

More recently, I've used a Musical FIdelity VLPS, but no, the results were not as satisfying. That's another reason for me not to be very keen on doing the job. There is no point, for me, in investing in a better phono amp: it wouldn't get used enough.

One thing that surprised me, last time I was messing around with this stuff, is that Audacity's software RIAA correction is surprisingly good.

OJneg · « **Reply #15 on:** August 18, 2015, 03:29:52 AM »

Minor issue, need to recable as it keeps cutting out and doing weird stuff. Will have to wait for parts

Chris F · « **Reply #16 on:** August 20, 2015, 02:45:15 PM »

Ahhhhhh this is my thread

My vinyl rig is essentially dedicated to doing needledrops and I've done well over 500 records over the last few years.

I record "flat" using a Seta Model L phono, apply software RIAA in Pure Vinyl (I A/Bd vs all the software RIAA filters I could find and Pure Vinyl was best) and then do everything else in Izotope RX4. I feel the software RIAA is superior to all but the very best analog implementations. It is clearly superior (imaging, attack/decay etc..) to the built in hardware RIAA on the Seta phono which very good.

You guys discussed cleaning. Yes, at minimum vacuum clean (VPI 16, Okki Nokki etc..) for professional results. Ultrasonic is best but costs $$$$ and you still need a vacuum rinse with distilled water for the ultimate best result. I'm saving my pennies for a KL or maybe VPI will step in with a cheaper alternative soon. (I know Harry has been designing a machine for a while now)

I would strongly urge the use of outboard ADC. PC soundcards (even the good ones) are noisy noisy noisy and the ADC is essentially an afterthought both on the board and in the driver... I started with a Claro Halo and last year moved to a TASCAM-DA3000. It's crazy how much cleaner the recording looks once you open it up. I would even use something basic like a TASCAM-DR05 before going back to a PC soundcard.

With regards to post processing, don't be afraid to "fix" things that are obviously off. There are LOTS of pressings that have baked in 60Hz hum, obvious channel imbalance due to the pressing or other just plain "wrong" stuff going on that can be fixed almost transparently in the digital domain.

For declick iZotope RX4 is best, espcially for noisy vinyl. I use the "Vinyl" preset but reduce the strength to 2.0 for a noisy record and 0.5 (minimum) for a clean one. The default of 5 is way too much and will munch on your transients which is no bueno. (note that 2.0 will also munch on some transients but the overall reduction is worth it)
ClickRepair is also very good; use strength 15 or less, wavelet with both Pitch Protection and Reverse enabled

Order of post processing is:
Click Removal
Anything other "re-mastering" you might want to do like EQ, channel balance, noise removal
Normalization (use -0.03dB but personally I actually gain it up higher (often to +1 or even +2dBfs) and then use the declip function to pull down/re-interpolate the small amount of samples (usually 100 or less) that go over)
Source Rate Convert (my final output is usually 24/96 since that's as much as the POS DAC in my DJ controller can handle)
Dither

Skyline · « **Reply #17 on:** August 20, 2015, 03:01:37 PM »

Quote from: Chris F on August 20, 2015, 02:45:15 PM

Ahhhhhh this is my thread My vinyl rig is essentially dedicated to doing needledrops and I've done well over 500 records over the last few years.

I record "flat" using a Seta Model L phono, apply software RIAA in Pure Vinyl (I A/Bd vs all the software RIAA filters I could find and Pure Vinyl was best) and then do everything else in Izotope RX4. I feel the software RIAA is superior to all but the very best analog implementations. It is clearly superior (imaging, attack/decay etc..) to the built in hardware RIAA on the Seta phono which very good.

You guys discussed cleaning. Yes, at minimum vacuum clean (VPI 16, Okki Nokki etc..) for professional results. Ultrasonic is best but costs $$$$ and you still need a vacuum rinse with distilled water for the ultimate best result. I'm saving my pennies for a KL or maybe VPI will step in with a cheaper alternative soon. (I know Harry has been designing a machine for a while now)

I would strongly urge the use of outboard ADC. PC soundcards (even the good ones) are noisy noisy noisy and the ADC is essentially an afterthought both on the board and in the driver... I started with a Claro Halo and last year moved to a TASCAM-DA3000. It's crazy how much cleaner the recording looks once you open it up. I would even use something basic like a TASCAM-DR05 before going back to a PC soundcard.

With regards to post processing, don't be afraid to "fix" things that are obviously off. There are LOTS of pressings that have baked in 60Hz hum, obvious channel imbalance due to the pressing or other just plain "wrong" stuff going on that can be fixed almost transparently in the digital domain.

For declick iZotope RX4 is best, espcially for noisy vinyl. I use the "Vinyl" preset but reduce the strength to 2.0 for a noisy record and 0.5 (minimum) for a clean one. The default of 5 is way too much and will munch on your transients which is no bueno. (note that 2.0 will also munch on some transients but the overall reduction is worth it)
ClickRepair is also very good; use strength 15 or less, wavelet with both Pitch Protection and Reverse enabled

Order of post processing is:
Click Removal
Anything other "re-mastering" you might want to do like EQ, channel balance, noise removal
Normalization (use -0.03dB but personally I actually gain it up higher (often to +1 or even +2dBfs) and then use the declip function to pull down/re-interpolate the small amount of samples (usually 100 or less) that go over)
Source Rate Convert (my final output is usually 24/96 since that's as much as the POS DAC in my DJ controller can handle)
Dither

Fantastic. I'm just going to ship you all my vinyl and let you do your thing

Chris F · « **Reply #18 on:** August 20, 2015, 03:08:50 PM »

Ultrabike this one is for you

Here is a sample needledrop from a great sounding mid 70s salsa album:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4sPIP8WLCg-OUFSVzNSek1sWTA/view?usp=sharing

This drop has no post processing other then normalization. I like using the trumpet solo near the end to evaluate gear because it's a screaming trumpet right in your face but the recording is so clean that if something is off it's not a gear issue.

Here is the same song from iTunes. I feel it's a real shame that people are asking money for stuff like this:
https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/raffy-diaz-y-su-orquesta/id295866641

Thad E Ginathom · « **Reply #19 on:** August 20, 2015, 06:04:55 PM »

Quote from: Skyline on August 20, 2015, 03:01:37 PM

Fantastic. I'm just going to ship you all my vinyl and let you do your thing

Me too. the best way to digitise is to to find somebody else --- somebody who is dedicated to the point of obsession, and loves doing it. Of course, the choice of gear is entirely up to them.

Chris... Keep up the good work!

Author Topic: How-To Make Good Needledrops (Read 1548 times)

Thad E Ginathom

Re: How-To Make Good Needledrops

Azteca X

Re: How-To Make Good Needledrops

burnspbesq

Re: How-To Make Good Needledrops

Skyline

Re: How-To Make Good Needledrops

Thad E Ginathom

Re: How-To Make Good Needledrops

OJneg

Re: How-To Make Good Needledrops

Chris F

Re: How-To Make Good Needledrops

Skyline

Re: How-To Make Good Needledrops

Chris F

Re: How-To Make Good Needledrops

Thad E Ginathom

Re: How-To Make Good Needledrops

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Author Topic: How-To Make Good Needledrops (Read 1548 times)