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Author Topic: Alternative transports to USB/PC or 'Spinning a disc'?  (Read 7861 times)

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schiit

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Re: Alternative transports to USB/PC or 'Spinning a disc'?
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2015, 05:40:28 PM »

To throw some more gasoline on the bonfire:

1. Jitter of a cheap CD transport in a computer will NOT be retained in ripping--it is simply creating numbers at that point, an exact copy of the disc that can be easily verified. Like Mike says, "This isn't religion, this is math."

2. Furthermore, the jitter performance of a computer-based source should be pretty much irrelevant to the jitter on the word clock of a DAC, since any jitter should be dominated by whatever is going on inside the DAC after regeneration, or via USB async clocks. Note the "should be."

3. Despite 1 and 2, we have noticed sonic differences between different disc-spinners and between different computer sources...and between different OSes. Macs are the worst sounding, though easiest to work with. PCs are usually better, but they vary widely. Linux is the best-sounding and most consistent. In our opinion. YMMV. We could be deluding ourselves.

It is interesting to note that Macs use a different USB data packet format for audio than Windows or Linux. I'll just throw that one out there, and leave it at that.
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Anaxilus

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Re: Alternative transports to USB/PC or 'Spinning a disc'?
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2015, 05:48:09 PM »

To throw some more gasoline on the bonfire:

1. Jitter of a cheap CD transport in a computer will NOT be retained in ripping--it is simply creating numbers at that point, an exact copy of the disc that can be easily verified. Like Mike says, "This isn't religion, this is math."

So no interpolation ever takes place during the rip process? I've noticed a few times where a cloned disc that checksums fine doesn't have the same dynamics of the orignal.
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schiit

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Re: Alternative transports to USB/PC or 'Spinning a disc'?
« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2015, 06:01:45 PM »

So no interpolation ever takes place during the rip process? I've noticed a few times where a cloned disc that checksums fine doesn't have the same dynamics of the orignal.

Nope, it cannot. When you run a data verify between the CD and the rip, if it's 100%, it's 100%. Else, well, computing just wouldn't work.
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audiofrk

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Re: Alternative transports to USB/PC or 'Spinning a disc'?
« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2015, 06:08:18 PM »

When you burn a CD I though it's read at least 3 times? Exact audio rip etc. Just read it more times and average the errors. CD would have to be really scratched though
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Re: Alternative transports to USB/PC or 'Spinning a disc'?
« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2015, 06:12:06 PM »

Coming from the other DAC thread, and to stop derailing it, I know Anax and Marv both mentioned how a good CDP might compare to a USB-based solution. Assuming there are good SD card players out there, I'm curious how those would compare to a good CDP as a transport, given both remove USB from the equation but are otherwise still different. You know...SD card vs CD. Obviously not the same mechanism there. Not sure if anyone has enough experience here to answer that. Seems it would be a nice in-between for convenience vs CDP and a computer.
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Anaxilus

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Re: Alternative transports to USB/PC or 'Spinning a disc'?
« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2015, 06:26:04 PM »

Nope, it cannot. When you run a data verify between the CD and the rip, if it's 100%, it's 100%. Else, well, computing just wouldn't work.

Maybe I'll see if I can bring you something this weekend or run an experiment. I've had FAILboat sound with EAC checksuming fine before. Careful, you're beginning to sound like an ODAC D/S guy Jason. Maybe I should hang on to it. Reminds me of the printer argument. USB is bit-perfect. If it wasn't you're printer wouldn't work. Ergo....

Computers use interpolation all the time and run 'fine'. If fine is good enough for audio, use USB or stream your music.
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DaveBSC

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Re: Alternative transports to USB/PC or 'Spinning a disc'?
« Reply #26 on: August 14, 2015, 06:28:59 PM »

So no interpolation ever takes place during the rip process? I've noticed a few times where a cloned disc that checksums fine doesn't have the same dynamics of the orignal.

That seems very strange. EAC should be providing an exact, 1-for-1 copy of the original, and if it's a known album, it will fetch checksums from rips done by others just to be sure that what you have is the same as what they have, and report something like this.

Test CRC 51FF1F86
     Copy CRC 51FF1F86
     Accurately ripped (confidence 7)  [241444AA]

I've never had an EAC rip sound even remotely different from an original.

That's a very different argument than the printer vs. the USB DAC. The people that make that argument don't understand how USB protocols work. Interrupt, Block, and Isochronous modes are all different. You don't need a $400 USB card for your printer because it runs in Block mode.
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Azteca X

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Re: Alternative transports to USB/PC or 'Spinning a disc'?
« Reply #27 on: August 14, 2015, 06:33:39 PM »

Maybe I'll see if I can bring you something this weekend or run an experiment. I've had FAILboat sound with EAC checksuming fine before. Careful, you're beginning to sound like an ODAC D/S guy Jason. Maybe I should hang on to it.

Computers use interpolation all the time and run 'fine'. If fine is good enough for audio, use USB or stream your music.

There are several things to consider with ripping: Test+Copy (so two passes of checksums), AccurateRip database (though AR leaves out a certain number of samples to deal with drive offset)...the real next-level solution is CueTools. They do not mess with offset and they calculate a "CRC32 of the whole disc (except for some leadin/leadout samples)." It's possible that your drive sucks or that you have a damaged pressing or a scratch etc but that's what the checksums and AR should tell you. CueTools is really crazy because they can actually correct damaged tracks using some Reed-Solomon madness (I will not attempt to explain this accurately, so here: http://cuetools.net/wiki/CUETools_Database)

If you rip and checksums work out and you're detecting gaps and all that and you have AUDIBLE problems then I think you have a defective pressing or a problem in the original master that went to press.
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Anaxilus

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Re: Alternative transports to USB/PC or 'Spinning a disc'?
« Reply #28 on: August 14, 2015, 06:35:21 PM »

That seems very strange.

You think?! EAC is the reason I stopped trusting the everything is just bits argument. Now, could there be a problem with a burned clone disc playing back with different jitter characteristics or some PC process affecting how the rip is played back? Sure. All I know is I've had identical checksum rips from two different rippers sound different. Take that fwiw. Placebo, psychosis, whatever.
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schiit

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Re: Alternative transports to USB/PC or 'Spinning a disc'?
« Reply #29 on: August 14, 2015, 06:35:39 PM »

Maybe I'll see if I can bring you something this weekend or run an experiment. I've had FAILboat sound with EAC checksuming fine before. Careful, you're beginning to sound like an ODAC D/S guy Jason. Maybe I should hang on to it. Reminds me of the printer argument. USB is bit-perfect. If it wasn't you're printer wouldn't work. Ergo....

Computers use interpolation all the time and run 'fine'. If fine is good enough for audio, use USB or stream your music.

Note that I did not say there were *no* audible differences.

But, yeah, bits are bits, bytes are bytes, code is code, storage is storage, it's either there or it isn't, it's either correct or not. Otherwise, like I said, *all of computing* would not work *at all.*

*Why* things sound different is something as yet unknown.

Personally, I'll take a Linux source over the inconvenience of a disk-spinner. Does it sound as good? Depends on the spinner (not the model, but on the specific one--did you get a good one? Is it in good shape? How has it aged over the years? They vary. A LOT.)

Am I selling myself short of ultimate audio quality? Perhaps. But then again, one of the unspoken commandments of Schiit is "thou shalt not feed audiophile nervosa."
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