CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS

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Author Topic: AudioQuest's Headphone measurements (and its own target headphone frequency)  (Read 4567 times)

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Solderdude

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I like to think the same idea applies to headphones, in that you can remove all the inner ear and HRTF stuff and just measure the sound coming out of the driver. That response should be relatively smooth and flat. At least in my experience, the best headphones tend to be flat in this scenario.

Yup I agree completely.
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briskly

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Olive-Welti curve and summary of headphone research/presentation can be found here. Response of the adjustments made from flat response at the listening position. I wonder why O-W didn't use a mannequin to determine the response at eardrum-equivalent for the in-room speaker.

O-W rig with headphone use would be generally similar to AQ, but O-W used large hard pinnae in testing, whereas AQ lists three different sets of pinnae used in measurements (hard small, hard and soft large).

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wnmnkh

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Olive-Welti curve and summary of headphone research/presentation can be found here. Response of the adjustments made from flat response at the listening position. I wonder why O-W didn't use a mannequin to determine the response at eardrum-equivalent for the in-room speaker.

O-W rig with headphone use would be generally similar to AQ, but O-W used large hard pinnae in testing, whereas AQ lists three different sets of pinnae used in measurements (hard small, hard and soft large).


Yes, this is the presentation file for O-W target, and it is also a great example why trying to make consensus with subjective listening tests, even in ABX, is not really a good idea because of bias caused by preference

If you have noticed, first test with 11 listeners.... 8 of them are Harman employees, who are already very used to Harman's house sound. Of course, it is inevitable that they would prefer the sound that is similar to what they used to hear at their work.

This is how a company can claim "With ABX tests, our speakers come top against competitors! Buy ours!!!" While this can be true, but since the company obviously used its own employees to do ABX, the result is not really valid for general public.

Sure, that test with 219 people are probably more valid, but there are several problems too (Kinda strange there is no result posted for HD518 despite the fact that you can even see it from the pictures they take, huh. Make you think about the result indeed.....)
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Anaxilus

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Well whatever. Everyone and their brother spent the last six months telling them they had too much upper bass bleed veiling the mids and not enough air up top. If you don't want to actually listen with your ears, since that's what the you're actually supposed to do with these things, pick whatever curve you want.
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thune

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My potential issue with Olive-Welti: it doesn't explore levels in the ear-gain region; it starts with a full ear-gain measurement of an in-room system measured by their GRAS setup (plus some voodoo), which won in a shootout of just 6 response curves. Another paper then explores bass/treble shelf adjustments to this curve. The Olive-Welti curve may be OK compared to the simulations of other headphone responses (using dozens of biquads filters), but it is not the result of a particularly exhaustive search. [OJneg may be right: the O-W curve could drop with a thud in headphonedom.]

And as regards the Nighthawk "white paper": would be funny if they developed a headphone that had all the technicalities right, but had a wrong-headed balance/response-target that drowned it all out.
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Solderdude

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Thanks briskly,

I will redraw my plot when I have some time.
Seems like a combination of the 'standard' room curves + GE targets.

My personal favorite is closer to the GE target (flat with a few dB lift in the lower bass)
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Solderdude

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And as regards the Nighthawk "white paper": would be funny if they developed a headphone that had all the technicalities right, but had a wrong-headed balance/response-target that drowned it all out.

Nothing some EQ couldn't fix in that case.  :D
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shotgunshane

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Thanks briskly,

I will redraw my plot when I have some time.
Seems like a combination of the 'standard' room curves + GE targets.

My personal favorite is closer to the GE target (flat with a few dB lift in the lower bass)

GE has changed their target A few times over the years. Here is what they currently do: Diffuse Sound Field Equalization + The small room X-Curve Compensation + Bass Compensation

So it seems they are adding in for a room and the 'missing 6db's" do bass perhaps.
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Solderdude

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neither free field nor diffuse field 'corrections' give an accurate compensation curve for headphones.
Both curves compensate for the ear canal + Pinna + room effects but differently because the stimulus is different.
With a headphone the sounds come from the SIDE only and not via a room.
Also the Pinna works differently when sounds come from the sides than when listening to something in front.
So... the only compensation needed for HP's is ear canal + infinite baffle + Pinna but NOT like when coming from the front.
This means that when you 'undo' the room correction (that is enclosed in DF and FF) you end up closer to what a HP 'emits' into your ear canals directly.

Closest way (they figured) was to undo the room by adding compensation for a small room (in which diffuse field is measured) to the DF which sort of 'corrects' the diffuse field compensated signal to become 'flatter' again so they 'undo' some of the room 'acoustics' in essence.
They use this curve to compensate the too high treble response which is caused by reflections:



This results in a 'nearer flat' response from 50Hz to 20khz and a too low response (due to the small room not able to do low frequencies) for bass response so they add some extra bass again.
In the earlier plots they showed the rising bass response as a target rather than apply it as compensation to the plot and displaying the result as a 'flat line' where the flat line represents equal perceived (but not measured) FR response.

At least that's what I can deduct from their limited amount of info on this subject.

And then even the X-curve (for theaters = large rooms) is heavily debated over the years... here is some thoughts about it:
http://www.hps4000.com/pages/general/the_mythical_x_curve.pdf

That roughly equates to a flat response on a flatbed measurement rig with compensation for bass.
There is a little snag though when using capsules that measure flat to 20Hz in free air.
When these are mounted on an infinite baffle (closed headphone) the bass response also will be elevated in the mic output signal but somewhat differently then just some added subbass.

But this is about how accurate the AQ response is and compared to what 'known reference' and if that target curve is more correct than others.
Then there is the question of how CLOSE the actual headphone is to that curve.
As I saw deviations of over 4dB in various places they aren't close enough (IMO) to their own curve.

From what I saw (would like to see it measured on the CUNT or UB's rig) there is more midbass and less 'clarity' in the NH compared to their own target which certainly seems to be perceived as darker than what 'ideal' sound should sound like.

disclaimer:
Above is all my opinion and not scientific proof nor does it have to be the real truth but is the way I see it.
I can be completely wrong about all this.
Don't really care about compensation curves for HATS as I don't use it.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2015, 01:52:10 PM by Solderdude »
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Marvey

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You can buy all the GRAS shit in the world, read all the good AES papers, and use all the coolest European ISO standards. In the end, it won't matter if you don't have good ears. I respect companies that simply make gear and say... this is our sound without trying so hard to prove it's right via marketing science. When the marketing science doesn't gel with good ears, that's makes things even worse. (specs is another matter... good specs are useful)

The DF stuff has always been suspect. DF is arrived at via averaging of signals in time. The initial wavefront, the side reflections, the back wall reflections, the reflections of the reflections, etc. etc. The problem with DF is that the ear doesn't process signals in a defined DCT/FFT window.

In other words, the human ear can to a large extent distinguish the initial signal and filter the reflections. And when it doesn't, like in a huge concert hall with strong long lived reflections, DF compensation isn't like 12db. More like 3db. That's why there's something called the BBC curve. The DF stuff has always been bullshit and more probably than not made up by someone thinking too hard or not thinking enough.

The problem is hobbyist/scientists who have no clue about acoustics, sound engineering, or simply good sound. They read these papers thinking everything is gospel. This DF nonsense should have be called out long ago. Just because some random fuckers wrote a paper shrouded in scientific trappings, graphs, and equations doesn't mean it's right. This even holds true in academia and respected medical journals... Lancet cough cough vaccinations make your kids retarded cough cough. (and yes, there are still enough crazy parents in the neighborhood I live in who refuse to vaccinate their kids)

Scientists should stay the fuck away from audio unless it's to design the most basic building blocks. Good audio is made by engineers (people who actually have to figure out how make the shit work).
« Last Edit: August 13, 2015, 05:39:00 PM by marvey »
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