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Author Topic: Which will sound the most clear and authoritative?  (Read 1691 times)

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Willakan

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Re: Which will sound the most clear and authoritative?
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2015, 06:29:33 PM »
In brief defense of the HydrogenAudio types, some of them *write* firmware - the main programmer (AFAIK) for RockBox is a HA regular.
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Anaxilus

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Re: Which will sound the most clear and authoritative?
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2015, 06:38:49 PM »
Quote from: Willakan on July 27, 2015, 06:29:33 PM
In brief defense of the HydrogenAudio types, some of them *write* firmware - the main programmer (AFAIK) for RockBox is a HA regular.

Does he think it can affect sound?

Oh, and believe me I wouldn't be surprised if 70% of HA were software 'engineers'. Not at all. Probably the most obstinate and narrow minded of all.
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Marvey

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Re: Which will sound the most clear and authoritative?
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2015, 07:36:52 PM »
Quote from: Anaxilus on July 27, 2015, 06:38:49 PM
Oh, and believe me I wouldn't be surprised if 70% of HA were software 'engineers'. Not at all. Probably the most obstinate and narrow minded of all.

I think you are giving them way too much credit. More like watercooled PC assemblers who look at benchmarks from Tom's Hardware or HardOCP all day.

There's more art than logic in programming. The art of assembling the logic.
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Willakan

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Re: Which will sound the most clear and authoritative?
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2015, 09:30:12 PM »
@Anax

Depends on the player. I know that, in the case of the ClipV2, the RockBox implementation has had some additional work done to minimise unneccessary SD card access whilst the music is playing, which tends to produce noises in sensitive headphones. They never did quite solve a different noise problem related to the configuration of the SoC's power supply...the Clip+ had no such problems, so development invariably petered out.

I don't think many would deny that you can fuck up the sound with firmware - I vaguely recall some AudioGd DAC, which, lacking a micro-controller to reconfigure the reconstruction filter for different sampling rates, simply pooped all over the audioband (may be nonsense, it's been a while). But we're usually talking about cases where the implementation simply hasn't been done properly - the Rockbox stuff is forgiveable, considering they're essentially reverse engineering the hardware.

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Anaxilus

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Re: Which will sound the most clear and authoritative?
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2015, 11:19:48 PM »
Oh I agree. I was a long time PSA PWD user. We used to keep different fw on cards so we could 'roll' sonic character on our DACs. People started selling them because they got tired of not knowing wth the DAC was actually supposed to sound like lol.

As for software engineers, I can appreciate the Neos of the world that see everything in the Matrix. However, most that I've run into, especially wrt audio are simply at Jenga level. No matter what, Jenga is Jenga and a wood block is a wood block to them. Many also seem to have very minimal hardware or mechanical exposure. I guess an earlier encounter with a supposed satellite programmer who believed digital audio reproduction was just like coding for a satellite left a bitter taste in my mouth. It either launches or crashes. That's it. It can't function if something is slightly off.
 facepalm
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Julian67

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Re: Which will sound the most clear and authoritative?
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2015, 07:08:12 PM »
Quote from: Anaxilus on July 27, 2015, 06:38:49 PM
Does he think it can affect sound?

I do, or at least different firmwares implement things differently and have different default settings, which can lead to audible differences.  Rockbox has been mentioned and this is what I found when comparing a Clip+ running Rockbox and running Sansa firmware.  I wrote a review of the Clip+ at head-fi a couple of years ago and the following is an excerpt:

Quote (selected)
OF:
Supports 44100 and 48000 Hz files without sample rate conversion.
Has a pitch error so 44100 files play back at the wrong speed (you can hear this but you might not notice it). 48000 Hz files have correct pitch.
Dithering seems to applied and cannot be switched off*.
Replay Gain is off by default.

Rockbox:
Only supports 44100 Hz files internally. Uses a linear sample rate converter for other rates.
Plays back with no pitch error (or error so small you need measuring instruments to detect it).
Dithering is not enabled by default (user can enable it).
Replay Gain by default is in mode "Track Gain if Shuffling". This means it "Maintains a constant volume between tracks if Shuffle is set to Yes. Reverts to album mode if Shuffle is set to No" (from the Rockbox manual). Clipping prevention is off and pre-amp is set to 0.

So if you play a 44100 track in each firmware at seemingly identical volume (max in OF and 0 dB in Rockbox measure the same on my Clip+ into a recorder) it's possible to notice differences in level (due to Replay Gain in Rockbox) and pitch (due to error in OF) and perhaps a difference due to dithering.

If you play back a 48000 Hz file the OF's pitch error is gone. There is still the possibility of Rockbox's Replay Gain altering the level. There is a definite change in the sound in Rockbox due to the resampler. This is completely unmissable with 10000 Hz sine wave or if you want to hear it in real music try a track with some cymbal splashes and hi-hats. It's horrible.

So people claiming to hear a difference between the firmwares can be reporting a real difference. And people reporting no difference may also be right.

.......

*I noticed a perfectly silent 44100 Hz file played back silently in Rockbox but with a little noise in the OF. There was no EQ applied or sample rate conversion. If I enable dithering in Rockbox I then get the same quiet background noise as the OF produced.

I assume there are other ways a firmware can change sound.  I don't think it matters too much if these are due to default settings which the user can change (like Rockbox having Replay Gain on by default, or dithering off) but if many settings choices are never even exposed to the user, as in typical proprietary player firmware, then it could be a real problem.

I would like to find it hard to believe that people insist all firmwares must sound the same but I do find it easy to imagine (I think I even know their names ha ha), and would not be surprised if it's the same people who only very grudgingly admitted that the sacred Clips have noise issues which are worse in Rockbox than in Sansa firmware and are not in fact the Rolls Royce or Mercedes Benz of the personal player universe.
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madaboutaudio

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Re: Which will sound the most clear and authoritative?
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2015, 07:40:42 PM »
Speaking of DAC firmwares. Some of NAD M51 users prefer the older firmware vs latest NAD firmware in terms of Sound Quality.
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maverickronin

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Re: Which will sound the most clear and authoritative?
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2015, 08:31:58 PM »
Quote from: Julian67 on July 28, 2015, 07:08:12 PM
people who only very grudgingly admitted that the sacred Clips have noise issues which are worse in Rockbox than in Sansa firmware and are not in fact the Rolls Royce or Mercedes Benz of the personal player universe.

It would be nice if there at least was Rolls Royce of the DAP universe.  They all suck, just in different ways.
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Julian67

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Re: Which will sound the most clear and authoritative?
« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2015, 02:13:32 AM »
Quote from: maverickronin on July 28, 2015, 08:31:58 PM
It would be nice if there at least was Rolls Royce of the DAP universe.  They all suck, just in different ways.

There was, with was being the operative word.  The iRiver H100/iHP players were surely the ultimate players 10 years ago (headphone out as good as any similar product at the time, optical in and out, high quality analogue line in and out).  Unfortunately it seems iRiver made a great player simply by chance and then dedicated the next few years to replacing it with players offering fewer capabilites/less storage/worse sound/less compatibility in any combo you didn't like.

My H140 (with 128GB SSD) does not compare to an iPod Classic in terms of sound quality via headphone out but there really is nothing wrong at all with the line out.  I still use it (with line out to FiiO E7) in preference to my iRiver H340, all the Sansa players I ever bought (Clip+, Fuze v2, Fuze+) and I prefer it over my Galaxy Note 2 when I don't need networking.

And like a Rolls Royce you can still get the consumable parts (battery and disk) and easily maintain or upgrade the thing (you can even add 1TB SSD).  The thing cost me a hideous amount new but it's really hard to complain 10 years later with it still being my favourite player.  And I have almost got that control button mastered (but I had to grow a thumbnail out).
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Julian67

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Re: Which will sound the most clear and authoritative?
« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2015, 09:59:18 PM »
I received this today and it's fine.  Works as specified, zero audible noise - absolutely black silent background, line out seems to be at the same level as expected.  It identifies as SAVIAUDIO X-DA2 which I can find zero information on.  It supports the sample rates and bit depths advertised.  Here it is with mpd passing the output (flac ripped from CD) direct to the hardware:

Code: [Select]
$ cat /proc/asound/card*/stream0
SAVIAUDIO X-DA2 at usb-0000:00:1a.0-1.4, full speed : USB Audio

Playback:
  Status: Running
    Interface = 3
    Altset = 1
    Packet Size = 224
    Momentary freq = 44100 Hz (0x2c.199a)
  Interface 3
    Altset 1
    Format: S16_LE
    Channels: 2
    Endpoint: 3 OUT (ADAPTIVE)
    Rates: 96000, 88200, 48000, 44100, 32000
  Interface 3
    Altset 2
    Format: S24_3LE
    Channels: 2
    Endpoint: 3 OUT (ADAPTIVE)
    Rates: 96000, 88200, 48000, 44100, 32000

I can't say I notice any difference between this asynchronous device and a similar (ESS Sabre) but synchronous DAC.  Anyway, I needed a cheap DAC for my music server and this looks like money well spent.
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