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Author Topic: Sound science thread  (Read 12980 times)

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ultrabike

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Re: Sound science thread
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2012, 06:34:58 PM »

Radio shack speaker wire vs. Ethernet/teflon made slight difference on the treble in an active bi-amped system.

I can see that happening. Depends on the gauge and length of the installed radio shack wire. Ethernet cable comes in different flavors: good 'ol CAT-5 < CAT-6 < CAT-7. IME I can say all of these have quite a bit of capacity.

I'm paraphrasing here: "Cables changed my LCD2s from having serious FR problems to something awesome." -or- "Interconnects gave my STAX way more dynamic capability and slam."
Can you said placebo? There's going to be a big earthquake in SoCal soon.

Not from me you won't, or the East Texas courts it seems. Not that it maters though.
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maverickronin

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Re: Sound science thread
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2012, 07:40:30 PM »

Headphones are always going to be the biggest difference.  I'd take a headphone I like out of an ipod over a headphone I dont like out of 10k worth of amp/source.

This times 1000.  And maybe factorial...
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ultrabike

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Re: Sound science thread
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2012, 07:58:12 PM »

From the little I have experienced and know: source > speaker/headphone > Amp > DAC >>>> cables.

I think I should clarify what I meant here by "source": The sound file itself. I have heard very old recordings which were transferred to digital... and they cut off at 5kHz... They sounded awful, and I believe they would sound awful no matter what rig they are play on...
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maverickronin

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Re: Sound science thread
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2012, 08:23:37 PM »

i can actually see cables making a difference with stats when i observed the loaner sr-202 i have here cause they need very high voltages to operate, so less resistance of the cable might help them but, i am not exactly sure on that part.

if i ever get pair of stats for cheap i might experiment with cabling with them. i might try a pair of koss ESP-9's since you can still find them pretty cheap still and depending how much room i have to work with i might try some 14 gauge wiring with them.

Its more about capacitance than impedance.  With impedance, what usually matters is the ratio and the impedance of the stators is huge compared to any cable you'd ever use so the power loss is just about zero.

A 'stat basically a capacitor.  Capacitors have lower impedance at higher frequencies so changing the impedance can change the FR.

If you recable a 'stat you want to make the capacitance as low as possible so the highs aren't rolled off.  Cable geometry the type of insulation you use are very important.  You want a wide ribbon-type cable  The farther apart the conductors are the lower the capacitance will be and braiding them make it even worse.  You also need the right kind of insulation between the conductors.  You want the lowest permittivity you can get.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_permittivity

Teflon has the best properties of anything practical.  Normal PVC many times worse than teflon.

You have to be really careful with the voltage rating on the insulation as well.
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grev

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Re: Sound science thread
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2012, 04:09:37 AM »

My subjective impressions are that cables have a subtle effect if any. I hear changes sometimes with certain combinations, but most of the time I hear no changes at all. The HE500 with thick shielded copper vs silver = difference. The LCD3 with different copper geometries made no difference. HP1000 with silver or copper made no difference. HD800 stock vs silver = no difference. HD800 copper vs stock = slight difference. Radio shack speaker wire vs. Ethernet/teflon made slight difference on the treble in an active bi-amped system.

Basically, it's one of those things I don't worry about.

Remind me to post a pic of my homemade ultimate interconnect cable. I'll be selling them for $275 a pair.



Highly interested on seeing what you guys think about cables.  I know purrin doesn't think they differ much from one of the audeze thread at head-fi...



I'm paraphrasing here: "Cables changed my LCD2s from having serious FR problems to something awesome." -or- "Interconnects gave my STAX way more dynamic capability and slam."

Can you said placebo? There's going to be a big earthquake in SoCal soon.
Fair enough, so the stock cables from the LCD-2 and stax weren't as good?

 And the HE 500, better with the silver or thick shielded copper?
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n3rdling

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Re: Sound science thread
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2012, 05:11:14 AM »

My views:

HP makes by far the biggest difference. 
Amp makes a bigger difference than digital sources but less difference than analog sources.
Cables don't make a difference.

Stax already use a low capacitance, high voltage rated cable so changing it is not worth the risk.
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rhythmdevils

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Re: Sound science thread
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2012, 05:42:24 AM »

Amp makes a bigger difference than digital sources but less difference than analog sources.

Second person who's said this.  Why do you think? 

Maybe simply because analog sources have more potential than digital sources (Iron But's reel to reel  ??? ).  Or maybe the opposite- because even cheap digital sources are pretty decent and analog sources have more potential for craptasticalness?
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Marvey

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Re: Sound science thread
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2012, 06:23:57 AM »


 Fair enough, so the stock cables from the LCD-2 and stax weren't as good?

 And the HE 500, better with the silver or thick shielded copper?

Never ever heard a sonic change with LCD2/3 cable changes. And I've heard a lot LCD2/3 cables - seems you can't find an LCD2 owner without a custom cable. Maybe tells you something. I did replace the stock ribbon cable with the LCD3 because I would prefer to be without a ribbon, besides, only STAX deserves such an honor. I also got serious discount too. Audeze should supply a decent quality round cable for the LCD2/3s.

HE500 with the thick copper shielded sounded like it had more body than the silver, which made the HE500 sound thin. This was the largest difference I've ever experienced and may be change my mind on cables. Still, not a huge difference (it didn't turn the O2 into the Balancing Act or anything like that) and I wouldn't discount placebo affect either.

--


Yeah - STAX deserves a garden hose cable! The capacitance would probably screw things up.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2012, 06:26:58 AM by purrin »
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RexAeterna

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Re: Sound science thread
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2012, 06:34:42 AM »

Amp makes a bigger difference than digital sources but less difference than analog sources.

Second person who's said this.  Why do you think? 

Maybe simply because analog sources have more potential than digital sources (Iron But's reel to reel  ??? ).  Or maybe the opposite- because even cheap digital sources are pretty decent and analog sources have more potential for craptasticalness?

by digital sources you guys are talking about things like coaxial,optical and spif right?

if so, then yes there really is not much difference if at all between most if all soundcards/dacs unless other wise. most digital sources are designed to do the same conversion as the next dac. even onboard audio is more then fine coming to that stuff. all you pay extra for is more features like extra/newer dsp's and the brand.

analog is different compared to digital and processed differently but, most soundcards and dacs are made well enough with little distortion to sound fine/great/clear for simple playback. recording and use of production softwares is bit more complicated and so forth. this is just soundcards and dacs i'm talking bout though . i have very little experience with other analog material like vinyl,tape,and reel to reel players so i can't comment on those.
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omegakitty

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Re: Sound science thread
« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2012, 03:12:58 PM »

When I meant digital source I meant DAC or CD player. When you hear a bunch of different topologies with various digital converters and output stages I think you start to appreciate the differences they make (sorry if this sounds snobby, it was NOT intended to be). Differences are also more readily apparent in side by side comparisons.

ie an R2R PCM1704 DAC with low distortion opamp output stage will sound quite different from a delta sigma (  :'( ) one with a resistor/discrete output stage. Just like in headphone amps the output stages do have different harmonics that will sound different on minimally mic'd music.

IMO 2 DACs with the afore mentioned digital converter/output stages/filters will make a much bigger difference than two solid state amps, or even a solid state and tube amp with similar harmonics.

Off the top of my head DAC/CDP that came and went through my place - Naim CD555/PS555, Assemblage DAC2, Assemblage DAC2.5, Assemblage DAC 3.0 Signature, Assemblage DAC 3.1 Platinum, Parasound 1100, Parasound 1600, Benchmark DAC1, Lavry DA11, North Star M192, Museatex Bitstream, Museatex Bidat, and maybe a couple of others.

But I still ranked the two roughly equal as a discrete solid state hp amp can sound very different from something like a white cathode follower tube amp (ie SinglePower PPX3 or any of the others with similar circuit) or a 6SN7/300B amp that sounds like mush.

edit: I will preface this by saying that my listening preferences are more towards analog and I am "tube guy" when it comes down to it. But I prefer my amps to impart as little sonic signature as possible so source material comes through in full downward dynamic range or resolution. The subtle pleasing harmonics from tubes are something that I do like and rarely take away from things (for me). But after hearing the differences in various digital topologies there is a reason that I have owned twice the number of digital sources than I have headphone amps.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2012, 03:20:26 PM by omegakitty »
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