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Author Topic: Apogee Groove Discussion  (Read 3182 times)

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lachlanlikesathing

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Apogee Groove Discussion
« on: May 23, 2015, 12:19:01 AM »

I found this last night and I'm just a little curious:



http://www.apogeedigital.com/products/groove

It's a USB stick style DAC/AMP with 4 ESS Sabre chips per channel, done by Apogee who have a pretty good pedigree. $295 USD. All very fancy, but it's this bit that has got me interested:

Quote (selected)
The Groove uses Apogee’s trademark Constant Current Drive output stage, whose output voltage is dynamically altered by impedance variations of the connected headphones, which has the effect of smoothing-out the frequency response non-linearities that occur with traditional headphone outputs. ‘Apogee’s Constant Current Drive is a truly revolutionary approach to dealing with the wide impedance variations of headphones available on the market today,’ says Betty Bennett, Apogee Co-Founder and CEO. ‘Because of this, the Groove unlocks the highest possible quality of any headphones you have, allowing you to listen to the music you love with incredible life-like clarity.’

http://www.avhub.com.au/news/hi-fi/apogee-groove-portable-usb-dac-399726

Any idea how this would work? It seems to be claiming that it will supply a constant voltage to a headphone at all frequencies regardless of impedance curve. I know next to nothing about electronics. The only thing I can think of is a reverse version of the resistor network on the Sony MDR-MA900 / MDR-F1.
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maverickronin

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Re: Apogee Groove Discussion
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2015, 01:32:28 AM »

It's basically just an amp with a super high output impedance.  So high, that in theory, the impedance of the transducer doesn't matter.  It also meas essentially zero damping factor, which may matter for some headphones.  I'm pretty skeptical about making that work properly off of just USB power though.

AFIK, there's not much benefit to using that method unless you're trying to get extra bass extension out over damped full range drivers in giant horns or something similarly weird.

Maybe someone else has some more insight...
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thune

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Re: Apogee Groove Discussion
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2015, 01:39:22 AM »

From the ad copy it is not clear that "constant current drive" is a current-source output, but apparently it is. This post on gearslutz by Don Spacht of Apogee references this earlier post in the thread that says:
Quote (selected)
Groove's output circuit is not a regular voltage out. It is current out. Which is a difficult concept to explain, but the net result is that a higher impedance will imply a higher output voltage.
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Armaegis

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Re: Apogee Groove Discussion
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2015, 04:53:59 AM »

But now you wind up with a frequency response that follows the impedance curve.

Can a current output amp wind up producing a voltage output across the load higher than it's internal rails?
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wnmnkh

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Re: Apogee Groove Discussion
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2015, 05:37:03 AM »

It is basically a little Bakoon.

Probably good match with high-impedance headphones, but for low-impedance headphones and IEMs with complex crossovers... forget about it.
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lachlanlikesathing

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Re: Apogee Groove Discussion
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2015, 11:03:00 AM »

So I sent an enquiry to Apogee and got the following response:

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Thanks for your email! The Groove’s Constant Current Drive reverses the relationship between voltage and current from how headphone amplifiers are traditionally built.

99% of all headphone outputs in the world use a voltage-drive design, where the current varies in order to compensate for load fluctuations and maintain a constant voltage. The disadvantage to this is that it is current that actually moves headphone drivers, and under certain conditions where the headphone itself isn’t perfectly matched to the headphone amp the actual diaphragm produces different audio levels at different frequencies - in effect, the frequency response becomes non-linear.

The Groove instead varies voltage to compensate for load fluctuations and maintain a constant current. By doing this, the circuit is built to compensate for frequency response non-linearity caused by impedance fluctuations. The headphone drivers get the consistent current they need to output a linear audio signal. In practice, the Groove’s circuit is compensating for both electromechanical and acoustic non-linearity, offering extremely consistent performance with any type of headphones.

The effective output impedance ends up being relatively high, actually, but that’s not a negative because it’s not a factor in how it’s moving the headphone driver like on a standard voltage-drive design. It’s kind of like asking for the MPG on an electric car - it wouldn’t be measured in the traditional sense.

Sorry if that was a little confusing, but I hope it helps!

So that seems to confirm that the Groove is a current source amplifier. I'm pretty intrigued by what this will mean given that the electrical damping factor will be very low. Again I have very little idea about this sparky stuff but I think I may order one of these just to see if it actually sounds different / better / worse with different headphones.

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lachlanlikesathing

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Re: Apogee Groove Discussion
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2015, 08:32:52 AM »

Okay, I got the Groove. This is very interesting. It sounds nice and clean, and I'm not sure if it's my imagination, but the low damping factor seems to make things sound a bit smoother/sweeter on the various gear I'm trying it with. Maybe this is the supposed euphonic sound that high output impedance tube amplifiers are famed for (I don't know, I don't own any.) But I'm enjoying the sound on the headphones that I regard as a little leaner or hot, like say the Audio Technica ATH-M70x, AKG K550 or Beyerdynamic DT770.

I was reading through this article on Innerfidelity: http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/musings-headphone-amplifier-output-impedance

Jan Meier seems to suggest that a current source headphone amp with a higher output impedance should actually help arrest oscillations in low mass, high efficiency drivers, which is the same argument as made in the article Maverickronin posted above.

This line is interesting:

Quote (selected)
The membranes of magneplanar drivers have a large surface and very low mass. Therefore they are already highly dampened by air. Proper electrical damping is of less importance. ...
Changing the effective output impedance only had very little effect on the current. It is the reason that current-amplifiers (instead of voltage amplifiers), like the Bakoon, which by nature have an extremely high effective output impedance, do work well with magneplanar headphones.

So if the Groove really is like a little Bakoon, there should be some headphones for which the Groove should be a great match...

Amusingly from Jan's article it appears Sennheiser headphones are not a good match despite Apogee's partnership with the company.

Quote (selected)
Axel Grell, the chief-designer at Sennheiser, once told me that their top-of-the-range headphones are always designed to sound best at a low output impedance.
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maverickronin

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Re: Apogee Groove Discussion
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2015, 03:08:59 PM »

Interesting.  That's what I would expect for full size dynamic headphones.  I think my K601s tend to sound better with a little extra Zout.  I should probably so some measurements sometime and see if it really shows up on the CSDs or if the extra bass is just covering it up.

Now the big question is, how does it sound with BA IEMs?  In theory, if the Zout is is high enough then the FR won't vary but since you'd also need really high PSU rails to go with it wouldn't work all that well in a USB powered device.

Maybe I should try and build my own current source amp too....
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aufmerksam

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Re: Apogee Groove Discussion
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2015, 05:01:18 PM »

but since you'd also need really high PSU rails to go with it wouldn't work all that well in a USB powered device.

This is my chief concern. But then consider the bakoons: max power listed is 1W at 50ohm... that means ~2.23V and ~447mA, which is within USB 2.0 spec, right?
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maverickronin

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Re: Apogee Groove Discussion
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2015, 06:04:48 PM »

This is my chief concern. But then consider the bakoons: max power listed is 1W at 50ohm... that means ~2.23V and ~447mA, which is within USB 2.0 spec, right?

Most of the amps power gets "eaten" by the the output impedance though.
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