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What kind of laptop would David Carradine use?

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Author Topic: Re: What To Do If You Don't "Like A Thing"  (Read 6336 times)

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AustinValentine

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Re: Re: What To Do If You Don't "Like A Thing"
« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2015, 03:42:21 PM »


As I read it again I still feel like it was a weak shot at humor using a poor stereotype. I'm far from horrified. Making light of stereotypes or making jokes about the LGBT/Q community (was I the only one who had to look up LGBTQ?) does nothing but continue to promote the lack of social acceptance of the LGBTQ community, and that's no small thing.  .....

If it offends feel free to say so, but making a poor joke is a long way from beating a man... let's be sure our outrage is proportional to the offense.


Definitely. I didn't set up the personal anecdotes as a way of structuring an equivalence, but more as a way of opening up why someone might be sensitive to those kinds of jokes in the first place.

The joke itself was a groaner. Groaning, throwing a spitwad, and saying why you didn't laugh is the appropriate response in this situation. All the other shit is just drama.
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Re: Re: What To Do If You Don't "Like A Thing"
« Reply #21 on: May 07, 2015, 04:37:31 PM »

Great post Austin! I'm glad you shared your experience and view, and I'm glad we can do that here.

For those that may not be familiar I wanted to highlight the particular comment that seems to have set off some significant discussion:
"You have just completed your male to female sex change, and you want a socially acceptable computer within your new LGBT community."

I went back to read this again because I thought, perhaps, I hadn't been offended as much as I should have when I first read it. I mean, wow, the community reaction has escalated dramatically and now we're discussing absolutely horrifying physical assault!

As I read it again I still feel like it was a weak shot at humor using a poor stereotype. I'm far from horrified. Making light of stereotypes or making jokes about the LGBT/Q community (was I the only one who had to look up LGBTQ?) does nothing but continue to promote the lack of social acceptance of the LGBTQ community, and that's no small thing.  But all it really says is that Macs are used by the LGBT, or that you are LGBT if you use a mac? Or something like that... Outside of perpetuating a stereotype is the comment really all that offensive, or are some just getting their hackles up anytime someone says anything about the LGBT/Q community? 

If Mike had said that fat kids like PC s to play video games would anyone have even mentioned it?  Maybe only us fat kids, but most likely we'd just let it go and not be overly sensitive. 

If it offends feel free to say so, but making a poor joke is a long way from beating a man... let's be sure our outrage is proportional to the offense.

Exactly. Says the guy with a big fat cock as his avatar and was described in another thread using a picture of a wasp. Oh my!

Honestly, if I watch the Birdcage with Nathan Lane, am I supposed to be horrified now? I used to like that movie. Wtf am I supposed to do if it comes on again? Laugh or turn off the TV and write my Congressman/woman/person/thing...
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Marvey

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Re: What To Do If You Don't "Like A Thing"
« Reply #22 on: May 07, 2015, 04:39:22 PM »

I got a chuckle out of it.

There's a reason stereotypes exist. A few years ago, I helped an older friend buy a Macbook because he wanted to fit in and impress a West Side El-Lay Hipster Progressive Crowd which counted LGBT people among their own. So when Mike made that joke, I had to laugh.

I actually recommended to my friend that he buy a POS Dell, Lenovo, or HP. But my friend was so insistent on being cool and accepted by this new younger crowd he was hanging out with, so I took him to the Apple store. He ended up regretting his decision: "This Apple is a POS, I can't do anything with it."

I don't know if you guys looked around, but Changstar ain't exactly a Politically Correct place. This slightly politically incorrect tone is purely intentional. Political Correctness is good at not hurting anyone's feelings, but it's bad as it tends to stifle honest discussion, which in turn causes resentment.

P.S. I don't believe for a second that Lachlan is deeply concerned about negative LGBT stereotypes. My bullshit detector tells me that Lachlan is more concerned with bringing attention to himself. As you said Austin, he could have approached Moffat himself.

P.S.S. The "delta-sigma, when music doesn't matter" shirt that Mike wore to CanJam, taken in the context of CanJam, is one hell of a lot more offensive.
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Thad E Ginathom

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Re: Re: What To Do If You Don't "Like A Thing"
« Reply #23 on: May 07, 2015, 05:05:17 PM »

was I the only one who had to look up LGBTQ?

No. I thought it (as I guessed it) was already covered in the LG, which is already tautological because doesn't G cover L... but hey, I did not come to quible about abbreviations (although I'll scream if anybody calls it an acronym). I'm a million or so miles away from such discussions, which is probably very bad for me. Making jokes about audio and women's bodies on one forum and tearing into a guy for talking about about avoiding "lady drivers" on another. Hypocrite of the year award. From self.   

Quote (selected)
The joke itself was a groaner

Yes it was, but wasn't it as much about the trying to fit in by making the right show. I can safely bet that when, decades ago, I started talking about things being far out, cool, etc, that I sounded (and perhaps was) a complete fake.

However I could not agree more about the power of words.  Long ago, a feminist friend lectured me on not calling women girls: girls are children, women are self-determining, grown up adults. It's even true in ladish terms: girls have pony tails; women have sex. 

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Changstar ain't exactly a Politically Correct place.

I loathe the words "politically correct." It is the ultimate devaluing sneer. My small poke at gender discrimination on a motoring forum, recently, was "denounced" as being "philosophical."

Philosophical... politically correct... In other words, not real life, not something that that matters, file it under vaguely intellectually, or  something that the Human Resources department has to pretend to give a damn about. It does matter that women are not girls (and, equally, that girls are not women) because it matters how we think, and words and thoughts are absolutely tied together, and mutually reinforcing and yes, jokes are in there too.
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Marvey

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Re: What To Do If You Don't "Like A Thing"
« Reply #24 on: May 07, 2015, 06:25:03 PM »

I don't even know if "lady" (a word I use often) is acceptable today. Lady might be construed as diminutive. Or I am supposed to use "womyn". Heck, I even got crap here about a month ago for using the word "ghey", which I specifically used in the first place to avoid denigrating gay people.

I hear my fourth grade daughter saying stuff like "Dad, that's totally gay." I am supposed to correct her? Seriously, I'm a fucking wreck because I feel like I'm walking on eggshells all the time, especially, especially when it comes to the "LGBT community" (I put that in quotes because no single person can claim to be the spokesperson for them.) Now you have to ask: does the way I feel really help my perception of "LGBT community"? Do you think these feelings might cause resentment on my part toward the "LGBT community"? Is it really a good thing that I now feel LGBT people require extra special handling and care? (Not talking about equal rights here, but actually special rights.)

When I was a preschooler in Taiwan, we called white people "Ang Moh Taow" (Hokkien / Taiwanese), literally "red haired head". It's not a pejorative if no insult is intended. The cool thing is that it also could be used as pejorative depending upon context. It's all how it's used. Of course there are now more white people in Asia, and as white people like to deconstruct things, they've decided that Ang Moh Taow is indeed a pejorative. Whatever. As I like to say: get over it.

Sometimes I wish English words didn't have such precise meanings because people tend to miss the forest for the trees. The meaning of Chinese words tend to rely heavily on context.

Seriously, this forum is not a place for the white people PC word police. If you have a problem, stop reading, and bugger off.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2015, 06:55:39 PM by purr1n »
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frenchbat

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Re: Re: What To Do If You Don't "Like A Thing"
« Reply #25 on: May 07, 2015, 06:53:13 PM »

IMO, sexual orientation does not make a person remarkable. Love, kindness, loyalty, valor, hard-work, self-sacrifice and so on are perhaps more remarkable.

Growing up there was (and still is) this famous Mexican openly gay singer by the name of Alberto Aguilera (better known as Juan Gabriel). He got made fun of many times at many levels. Given JG sexual orientation, my father had little respect for this singer. However, my father eventually learned a bit about his story. It seems that among his siblings he was the only one that took good care of his mother, who was a maid for a then powerful Juarez family (which I happen to know relatively well). JG bought the mansion in which she used to work and gave it to her mother and did many other good and respectable deeds. Along with other couples, my parents went to some of his concerts and they loved it.

My father would say now that JG is more man than some men (it's a figure of speech "Juan Gabriel es mas hombre que muchos hombres").

First, Ultra's post. No more, no less.

Second, being from a different country I'm not going to enter a debate about politics that's not mine. However, I know for sure that the day we cannot laugh about everyone and everything anymore will be a sad day.
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Armaegis

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Re: Re: What To Do If You Don't "Like A Thing"
« Reply #26 on: May 07, 2015, 07:04:11 PM »

When I was a preschooler in Taiwan, we called white people "Ang Moh Taow" (Hokkien / Taiwanese), literally "red haired head". It's not a pejorative if no insult is intended. The cool thing is that it also could be used as pejorative depending upon context. It's all how it's used. Of course there are now more white people in Asia, and as white people like to deconstruct things, they've decided that Ang Moh Taow is indeed a pejorative. Whatever. As I like to say: get over it.

Sometimes I wish English words didn't have such precise meanings because people tend to miss the forest for the trees. The meaning of Chinese words tend to rely heavily on context.


Growing up, white people were "gwai lo" (ghost people), I was "fai dzai" (fat boy), grandma was "lo paw" (old woman), etc... None of it was meant in a derogatory way. Terms of endearment even.
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AustinValentine

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Re: Re: What To Do If You Don't "Like A Thing"
« Reply #27 on: May 07, 2015, 07:42:35 PM »


I hear my fourth grade daughter saying stuff like "Dad, that's totally gay." I am supposed to correct her? Seriously, I'm a fucking wreck because I feel like I'm walking on eggshells all the time, especially, especially when it comes to the "LGBT community" (I put that in quotes because no single person can claim to be the spokesperson for them.) Now you have to ask: does the way I feel really help my perception of "LGBT community"? Do you think these feelings might cause resentment on my part toward the "LGBT community"? Is it really a good thing that I now feel LGBT people require extra special handling and care? (Not talking about equal rights here, but actually special rights.)


If you replace "special rights" with "consideration" in the last couple of sentences, it also still works. But I'd agree that people are too quick to assume bad faith or negative intent in someone else's words. I think that's what you're getting at, and that's where the anxiety you mention really stems from.

People these days require special handling and care. It just happens that language is now subject to public scrutiny and re-evaluation. This isn't unique to queer identity politics; all identity politics have the same kinds of considerations and renegotiations. Make a comment about women's representation in gaming or comics and you'll have six kinds of men's rights groups (MRGs) riding up your ass - or even sending you death threats.

Walter Benn Michaels at U-Chicago's theory is that post-1960s identity politics creates conflict because, unlike ideology, identities can't be argued in rational terms. Someone is or isn't an identity, either assigned externally or adopted by the subject themselves. When identities come into conflict, Michaels thinks that the only option is violence. This is, to some degree, a restatement of Sam Huntington (& Francis Fukuyama's) "Clash of Civilizations" thesis. If a person looks around, it would be pretty easy to get this idea - especially with the sectarian religious violence around the globe and the dysfunctional left/right political bifurcation that we have in this country. Plenty of world leaders think the same thing. Back in 2010, Chancellor Merkel made the claim that "Multikulti" had failed because of the inability of German society to deal with the problem of radical difference.

The alternative to violence that Michaels et. al. miss is laughter. It's fun to laugh at difference. It's enjoyable to know that human culture and biology exhibits the kinds of wild diversity that we encounter on a day-to-day basis. I think when communities get up in arms about language, what they're really trying to express is they feel that their particular kind(s) of difference have been the butt of too many punchlines for too long. That's not an unreasonable position. It can become an unreasonable position when it's amplified by ego, by media, or by way of accumulation/mob logic. But at the end of the day, the absurdity of human existance - of farting and shitting, bodily fluids, awkward sexual encounters, flapping bodies, adolescent failures, messy births and deaths, all those stupid mistakes and grand successes - is a unifying thing that transcends any level of difference and belief. People are fucking weird. The human animal is capable of all kinds of spontaneous profundity and stupidity, entertainment and banality.

In any case, my soapbox is closed. I have some audio toys to go dick around with. The joy that comes from doing that is definitely something that we all share in common.
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Anaxilus

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Re: What To Do If You Don't "Like A Thing"
« Reply #28 on: May 07, 2015, 08:38:07 PM »

I never would have imagined hearing Mike Moffat and Samuel P. Huntington being mentioned in the same context in my wildest dreams. Strange indeed...
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Marvey

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Re: What To Do If You Don't "Like A Thing"
« Reply #29 on: May 07, 2015, 09:39:53 PM »

I'm much more philosophical about this. Decades ago, there was a TV western drama called Kung Fu. The great David Carradine started as Kwai Chang Caine, a half-chinese half-white dude who was trained as a Shaolin monk from childhood. In one memorable episode dealing with racism, after he had vanquished the antagonist, Caine said some wise words to the effect of there will always be people who are for you, people who are against you, and people who haven't made up their minds or don't know yet.

Moffat makes a stereotype about LGBT people and Macintosh computers. Self appointed LGBT rights spokeman Lachlan makes a big stink. Everyone who already agreed with Lachlan nods their heads in agreement: "Wow, that Moffat guy is a sack of shit!". People who hated gays harden their positions: "You see, these fags want to impose their gayness on our kids. Deuteronomy, Leviticus, blah, blah, blah." And everyone else in the middle now thinks "Wow, these LGBT people are kind of self righteous pricks." Result: LBGT people lose.

It's like what Austin said. If Lachlan had approached Moffat, worked things out with him, and come to some kind of understanding, it would have been a big win for everyone. Promoting understanding takes a lot of magnanimity.

So I'll take my "Get over it" statement back. Instead I'll offer this: "Be the bigger man" - or - "the larger woman". Ah fuck. I can't get this right. Someone help me.
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