Sorry, but when you use BIG language like 'cultural ethos' of an entire nation the topic moves beyond what you think your generation wanted. The Mustang is the most iconic American car over the past 50 years. Same with the Z car being Japan's dominant icon over the same period. I even challenge you to produce sales numbers for your generation that shows the Eclipse outselling any Z car of the same period to support your perception.

Uhh. No it doesn't! XD Using "big language" doesn't mean I'm saying anything other than what I actually said: I was referring specifically TO my generation, if you read a bit more closely. As far as older generations' or other cultures' perceptions of these cars, I couldn't say much at all, but for kids born in the late 80s/early 90s who grew up watching The Fast and the Furious, the Eclipse was the car we all lusted over. Plenty of guys I know wound up buying a used Eclipse; not so many Z cars or Supras. Obviously my sample is limited, but I've lived in every section of the US other than the Pacific Northwest since I was a teenager (grew up in the Northeast as a kid, went to school in the Midwest and South, lived in the Mid Atlantic after school, now live in the Southwest), and I've been a car fanboy since I was 12 and have spent most of my time since then meandering across the internet, discussing my pet interests on various forums, so I think my perspective on this particular matter is pretty accurate.

Edit to clarify here: Mustangs have the ethos they possess because of the image they conveyed in the 1950s and 1960s - a fast, cool-looking car that a working-class American could afford. This is what the Eclipse was to Americans in the 1990s, and this image was even further reinforced by the Fast and the Furious movies. I'm not aware of other specific time periods that had such relationships with cars, due to lack of cultural forces - I'm happy to be corrected if you can provide similar examples.

Sales number won't measure cultural image; plenty of the people who idolized these cars in the US from seeing The Fast and the Furious definitely didn't have the money to buy one at the time, and even though they might still hold the same image of the car, I'm sure priorities have shifted for most - cars don't mean what they used to in the US. And plenty probably still don't have the money to buy one because of the recession XD

But, back on the topic of price, and I'm speaking from a strictly American perspective here, the Z cars cost at least 10k more than a Mustang (almost 20k more than V6 models!), putting it squarely in the range of attainability only for those in the upper middle class, whereas the Mustang (and Eclipse) are targeted squarely at middle and lower-class buyers.

I DO agree that the Z car is Japan's most iconic sports car (like I said, the 300zx is my dream car, so you know I agree with you on this one in some sense!), speaking outside of generational relevance, but that still doesn't make it the cultural equivalent of a Mustang; maybe more like a baby Vette, or Dodge Challenger.

I'll even say the AE86 Corolla is a bigger icon in both Japan and the US than any Eclipse.

...I understand why you're saying this, and in certain circles I'm sure it's true, but if you're looking at the broader culture rather than the niche racing community, this is just plain false, at least i n the US; I can't say anything about Japan, but I know most Americans would look at you like you're insane if you told them that the Toyota Corolla is famous as a race car.

Dude, the amount of condescension in this post is painful. You probably know more about cars and tuner culture than I; I don't lay claim to that type of knowledge. What I'm talking about is broader cultural perception, and if your perspective is limited to So Cal, I think I can make pretty decent contrast to your perspective given my experience living all around the states.

Pretty much disagree with most everything you said really. People bought a used Eclipse because they couldn't afford a Supra. Not one person I know who was somehow influenced by Fast and furious would take an Eclipse over a Supra.

Out of curiosity, do you fall into the generation I'm discussing?

And yeah, Supra > Eclipse all day, but who could afford a Supra?

...and since when was the Eclipse ever a 'race car'? What do you even mean by that. I think part of the problem is you're using sloppy language to try to make your points so it's not holding up.

-_- Sloppy my ass. I'm saying if you pose the Corolla as a car used for street racing to most Americans, they will laugh in your face. It's that simple.

You also probably don't want to compare auto resumes and experience with me if you are trying to come off as some sort of authority.

LMAO! Curb your ego, dude! I'm not an authority; never said I was! I've been interested in cars since I was young, and have learned a lot about different models, and have talked to a lot of people in my generation about their opinions on different cars. That's what I'm speaking to, not knowledge of car mechanics or tuner culture. Maybe that's where we're having the disconnect.

I think the Eclipse was seemingly more significant to you as maybe that's the culture you were part of so it seemed bigger than it was. The Eclipse has simply never had the significance and following that the Supra, Z car, Miata, Integra, Civic, AE86Corolla, Silvia, RX7, GTR, WRX, Evo had. Compared to those, the Eclipse was an minor blip on the radar that came and went barely noticed. Unless maybe if you were a fanboy that had one. No one else really cared too much. So Cal is car Mecca. I don't recall armies of Eclipses rolling around after Fast and Furious. Pretty much all the others were the culturally dominant tuner cars, except the GTR which we couldn't get yet.

YES the Eclipse is more significant to my culture and my generation!! That's what I've been saying the whole time! Christ, you complain about my wording but don't actually read what I'm saying? Shit dude, get it together!

Also, the forums of people who have the MONEY to buy cars and tune them represents a small portion of the people I'm talking about. I'm talking about BROADER CULTURAL IMAGE - the general public's perception of the cars. Most people don't know what an Integra or RX7 is; if I ask my girlfriend "Hey, do you think I should g et the new WRX or Evo?" she would look at me like I was crazy and ask what I'm talking about, but if I told her I was thinking about buying an Eclipse, this pops into her head: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ca/Mitsubishi_Eclipse_front_20080801.jpg

To your other point, sales numbers do absolutely reflect an accurate cultural image! Look at Apple sales. Look at the current culture. Look at the sales and aftermarket support and forums for most of the cars I listed above and try to tell me the Eclipse is more culturally significant than any of those cars. Nah. Sales reflect the tastes and desires of the culture in question. You can't ignore this fact. I wish could ignore all the BMWs and MBs driving around California and tell myself the state isn't full of assholes, but I can't. Reality is a bitch.

Dude, Apples (lol) to oranges! ANYONE can afford a $600 cell phone if they really want it; not everybody can spring 40k, or even 20k, on the car they want. Maybe this is a bias of the culture YOU are a part of - I'm talking about broader cultural perception, the everyman, who will probably never own any kind of sports car at all; you seem to be more focused on actual tuner and sports car culture, in reference to which your points are AFAIK 100% correct, but now I'm trying to show you that that's not the point I'm trying to make.

Aftermarket forums are irrelevant to my point; again, you're talking about enthusiasts while I'm talking about pop culture. I don't know how that has slipped past you but I'm trying to be 110% clear this time.

You're also having a hard time equivocating the price of an Eclipse from 20 years ago to a Z car today versus two very different generations and trims levels of Mustangs. That's pretty sloppy.

Sloppy my ass! The Z cars were STILL noticeably more expensive than the Eclipse 20 years ago.

My point is proven by the fact that EVEN THE HIGHEST TRIM MUSTANG is 10k less than the LOWEST trim Z car! What about that doesn't make sense? The money might not be a factor to you or your friends, but to a lot of people, what they want and idolize has a lot to do with what they see as attainable or achievable. This is what the Eclipse and Mustang had in common in the 90s.

The Mustang has historically been America's iconic car and the Z car has Japans. It's really that simple. They don't need to cost the same to make that true. 

-_______-;;;

I LITERALLY SAID THIS IN MY LAST POST! I agree with you on this point 110%!!!!

My argument is that the Eclipse in the 90s was what the Mustang was in the 50s and 60s. That's the role they share, and that similarity of being iconic for a certain time period has imbued them with a certain cultural role, which I've observed as consistent across the US in my time living in different areas.

I see now, reading back, that I wasn't super clear about this from the get go, but I'm trying to make it as clear as possible now so you can get off your high horse and understand that I'm making a very vali d comparison between the Eclipse and the Mustang. I think we're using similar language to talk about two different things, and due to our differences in exposure and experience, we aren't lining up - that's what I'm trying to clarify.

Alright. You asked for it....

If you feel that way, too bad for you I suppose. I'm not responsible for how you feel or perceive reality. Oh well.

I understand your perspective, but it might be in your best interests to at least try to meet people half way and understand their feelings about your mode of communication.

1-No you're not. See below.
2-So you saw fleets of used Gen1/2 Eclipses rolling around in every part of the country apart from SoCal after Fast and Furious came out? I'd be curious how many even existed in the South, Midwest or East coast versus California over that period.

READ MY POST DUDE! I'm not even talking about the people who own the cars! I'm talking about board cultural perception.

Gen 1 Eagle Talon AWD was almost my first car. Almost 10 years before FnF came out.

So you're not in my generation, and therefore obviously have a different perspective. That's fine. I'm just trying to show you my perspective, and a few things I have seen in common from people in my generation.

Point is, when most people think FnF, they think Supra or Dodge Charger. Not Eclipse, Ferrari or RX7.

What? So nobody remembers the first car they saw the protagonist drive in one of the most dramatic scenes of the movie? GTFO.

1-Still waiting for your definition of a 'race car'. Drag? Traffic? Canyons? Pick on the Corolla all you want, but all the other cars I mentioned will jump into most peoples heads before the Eclipse ever does. But since you are on the subject, no Eclipse will match an AE86 Corolla on Ortega/78. Not really relevant, just a fact. Might be relevant depending on how you define 'race car'.

I was defining "race car" as a car people use for street racing.

I don't have any problems with the Corolla; I think it's a great car, and obviously proved its merit in the underground scene. But I don't think most of the general populace, of which I can speak most clearly for my generation, is aware of this.

Well, that's what it sounds like when you talk about your vast experience and qualified opinions. That by definition is an appeal to authority. Otherwise, why did you even bring up your background? Go ahead and LYAO even more.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

I'm not committing a logical fallacy, so you can fly a kite with that hot air; if anything, you made a stronger argument from vague authority. I'm just stating my relevant experience to the point I'm making, which you still obviously don't understand.

1-Um, no you haven't. See your second quote at top and the following quote about 'BROADER CULTURAL IMAGE'. Either it's about your select smaller specific demographic or it's about a larger broader group in the demographic. It can't be both. So you need to pick one or the other.
2-I'm reading what you are saying, you just don't appear to know how to say or write what you want to. You're the one suffering a communication disconnect unfortunately from what you are thinking and how you are trying to convey it. I can only go by your specific use of language rather than psychic intervention. So if you want to freak out about that, feel free.

When I say "broad," I'm saying the general populace, in contrast to people who actually street race or tune  their cars. Maybe that's what I wasn't making clear. "Broad" was not intended to encompass many generations - I feel like I made that pretty clear a number of times.

Oh the contradictions keep coming. See above.

Again, not talking about cross-generation "broadness" - I very specifically refer to my own generation multiple times, and I find it disingenuous that you choose to ignore this.

I challenge the accuracy of that overgeneralized premise. The RX7 especially has been around a lot longer than the Eclipse has and covers more generations of people. I'm sure I could find a pretty big demographic that hears Eclipse and thinks this, not a 'race car'

I'm sure more of the general populace would think of an Eclipse as a potential street racing car vs. the Corolla.

Wow, my point about the relationship between the defining of culture and markets just went waaay over your head there. None of that is even relevant to the point or consistent with it. People buy cars all the time. The iPhone doesn't invalidate anything. Heck, if I applied your logic, I could say Breaking Bad and the Pontiac Aztek has defined this generation. That would make a whole lot of sense...

What? Breaking Bad would be closer, but wtf? Pontiac Aztec? What point are you even trying to make?

1-Hmm, forum traffic and purchase orders give us hard data as to what's popular in culture versus your personal self-proclaimed 'non-expert' perceptions. Why would I believe you to be more accurate over this data?

Because not everyone who has a perception of the Eclipse in the manner that I'm talking about will visit an audio forum or ever invest in a sports car/tuner. How thick are you?

2-Another appeal to 'popular' culture when you conceded above you are talking about a small select group of Eclipse enthusiasts who were inspired by FnF.

I never claimed to be talki ng about small groups of enthusiasts - I've been very clear in at LEAST my lasts 2 posts that I'm talking about the general populace of my generation, and nothing to do with tuner groups. You have very clearly and obviously ignored my efforts at clarifying this fact.

1-The fact that you and I already agreed that price does not define a nations cultural icon here.

I'm not saying the Eclipse is a national icon - I'm saying it has iconic status for the majority of my generation.

2-You are confusing defining a cultural icon versus comparing two automobiles based on competitive pricing. Pricing does not define what a cultural icon is. How many times does this need to be said and for you to agree to it?

How many times do I need to reword my actual point before it crosses your cranial membrane? Price DOES have an effect on iconic status by making the car an attainable goal. See my last post.

3-Thought and fact experiment for you. Before the Eclipse came out in the 90's. Which Japanese car competed with the Mustang for that prior 20 years?

Again you ignore the actual point I'm making. Please reread my last post.
 

4-If you are only talking about the 90's, then you are not appealing to broader culture, that is a much smaller and specific demographic.

YES it is! I'm talking, for the millionth time, about my generation - people born in the late 80s and early 90s.

That's the statement you should have made the first time. However, I'd say there are other cars that surpass the Eclipse under those parameters. The actual 90's Mustang, the Celica, the Prelude, maybe a few others are closer to being more iconic in the 90's in line with representing what the 60's Mustang represented in cheap youthful automotive thrills.

Ok, seems like you are actually interpreting me properly here...for once. But I totally disagree with both of your chosen alternatives. Again, most people wouldn't know what a Honda Prelude even is. In tuner culture, sure; in the broader scope of my generation, good luck. The Celica might be a fair choice, but it just doesn't have the same iconic status and reputation among people of my generation.

1-That's true.

THANK you.

2-Logic doesn't ride a horse.

What? You're being very "logical" in everything you say, but are very clearly ignoring much of what I'm saying, which is pretty illogical if you'd actually like to communicate with me rather than just prove yourself right.

3-It's only valid is you don't define the Eclipse as THE iconic equivalent to the Mustang. You've offered nothing to set the Eclipse above the others except FnF which is a 2001 movie that btw used a USED Eclipse. You've been talking about comparing new car prices and only talked about used car prices versus the Supra. The actual FnF iconic car. Maybe you should have stuck to discussing only used tuner Stangs versus used tuner Eclipses. 

The pricing is only an issue insofar as it pertains to the actual attainability of the car - again one of my central points that you are blatantly ignoring.

I'm not saying it's THE iconic equivalent; if I said those words, then I misrepresented the point I was trying to make, which is my fault. But you're not taking kindly to my clarifications, so it's obvious you don't really care what my point is; you just want to be right. Which you are about a number of things, but not the cultural perception of my generation that I am ACTUALLY attempting to clarify, which you would see clearly if you would look at the gestalt message I have been attempting to convey in my posts, rather than taking a hyper-critical interpretation for the sake of proving yourself right, which you are clearly intent on, not to mention deliberately insulting my intelligence and communication skills, which happen to be two of my greatest strengths, so you might reconsider interpreting my posts ingenuously for their intended content, rather than obsessing over exposing the minute logical inconsistencies in my specific phrasing. I've fully admitted that I didn't correctly represent the position I am taking at the outset; if you get your head out of your ass, you might recognize that, and actually try to understand what I'm saying.

Christ. I came to this place hoping to relax and not be misinterpreted or critiqued for everything I say; maybe I'm in the wrong place.

Are we making vulgar personal attacks now or are we still the delicate flower. I'd like to know so I can respond appropriate to your chill and relaxed line by line form of casual conversation.

Fair warning, be consistent and honest in your choice or you'll  .

I tend to mirror the communication styles of others. Usually it's helpful to establish a mutual understanding; apparently you're finding condescension and belittlement just as distasteful as I did.

And don't threaten me. I don't need to be here; I want to, but I won't lose any sleep if you ban me over something as petty as a debate about the cultural status of a car. In fact if you were to do so, I would be glad to be rid of you. But if you're not that insecure, let's play nice.

Gilly, I think you should see what input the HC guys have on this topic. You'll be able to relax there and not be misinterpreted or critiqued for everything you say.

Don't know what HC is; can't tell if sarcasm...