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Author Topic: Marvey's DAC Adventures  (Read 6765 times)

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Mr.Sneis

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Re: Marvey's DAC Adventures
« Reply #20 on: January 02, 2015, 03:39:46 AM »

Marv, sorry I am dense but what is the reason for the PCM1704 hate?  Is it just the AGD implementations?  I am somewhat afraid to hear the answer as I have really liked the only 1704 DAC I have experience with the Assemblage 3.0 though it did not gel in every setup I tried it with.
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Marvey

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Re: Marvey's DAC Adventures
« Reply #21 on: January 02, 2015, 04:03:46 AM »

PCM63 sounds the best. PCM1702 was a small step backward. PCM1704 was even a bigger step backward. I don't think Schiit wanted to go backward. I lived with the A-GD Master via i2s OR5 and all that crap to try to make the Master 7 sound not like it had certain PCM1704 characteristics, but in the end, I gave up. In general, the PCM1704 sounds too soft and too syrupy in the bass. This has been my experience with a lot of PCM1704 DACs, some very expensive, and some from very well known big names.

While Schiit doesn't necessary have a house sound, very little of their gear can be said to sound soft or syrupy (Val 2 or Asgard 1). I can totally see why they would prefer the PCM63 over the PCM1704.

Don't get me wrong, I'd take a Sonic Frontiers PCM1702 based TransDAC over any of the current delta-sigma DACs. PCM1704 is good, but kind of too much like this sometimes:



or this:



Legend has it that upon hearing the PCM1702, Mike Moffat decided to quit Theta, among other reasons I am sure.
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zerodeefex

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Re: Marvey's DAC Adventures
« Reply #22 on: January 02, 2015, 04:12:44 AM »

Marv doesn't hate the PCM1704. As a hint, take a look at the datasheet for the PCM1704. They don't claim monotonicity to any point and in fact were steps back from previous chips that TI put out. These are commercial grade DAC chips. In order to achieve what they did with the Yggdrasil, Schiit had to find military grade DAC chips with a monotonicity of many bits.

It's all fine and dandy to have a 24 bit DAC chip, run several in parallel, use a super high bit DSP to approximate exactness. You are still not actually truly resolving anywhere near that.
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Marvey

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Re: Marvey's DAC Adventures
« Reply #23 on: March 09, 2015, 08:04:38 PM »

Q: I'm not fan of any company just searching for best of the best.
A: The problem with the “best of the best” is that one man’s treasure could be another man’s shit. People have different preferences, different sensitives, and different components in their audio chains. Outside of personal preferences, a DAC which may sound good in one system may sound bad in another. A poorly resolving amplifier or transducer may not be able to take advantage of a highly resolving DAC.

My aim as an audiophile is to build a system that can create the illusion that I am listening to the real thing. And no, audiophile is not a bad word. It does not make sense to me when I read a product review on HF and the author prefaces the review with “I’m not an audiophile, but I’m a music lover”. I then have to ask myself “Well, why the fuck did you buy that $500 piece of equipment?” Anyways, I digress.

My conclusion after searching for the best DAC far and wide through space and time is that there is a ton of musical information in the Redbook format (16-bit, 44.1kHz) which has only been barely scraped by the majority of the DACs out there.

The best DAC must faithfully reproduce as much musical information as possible contained in the Redbook format without committing sins of commission such as glare, treble hash, raspiness, blurry bass, congestion, or incorrect timbre.

Personally, I do not believe in flavor or coloring of source equipment to synergistically match with amplifiers or headphones. I believe in the judicious use of EQ (parametric) and I build my own speakers to meet a target frequency response curve at the listening position. I am not at the mercy of a manufacturers’ sound. This gives me more flexibility than most other people in terms of requiring “synergistic pairings”, which all too often means pairing one piece of colored gear with another to cancel out their deficiencies. That being said, I have no problem with this approach as it is necessary in many cases. I did write the “Best Amps with HD800” thread after all.

Q: Could you please make a comparison : Hugo , Audio GD Master 7 and Theta DSPro Gen V-Va ?
A: The Master 7 is not competitive without one particular top shelf USB converter and one specific data transmission method: the Off-Ramp 5 via i2s. An inferior converter cannot be used. I have been asked this question many many times. I have heard many inferior USB converters and they simply do not do the job.

At the end of the day, the expensive USB converter is only a tweak that mitigates, but does not cure the Master 7’s weaknesses: 1) Lack of ultimate dynamics and slam; 2) Slightly syrupy and slow “PCM1704”  bass; 3) Lack of depth and slightly imprecise imaging; 4) Little bit of stridency.

The Master 7’s microdynamic and microdetail capability are quite excellent. The deep placement of the stage partially makes up for its lack of depth. The Master 7’s uses resistor ladder chips, so despite the slight treble stridency, it has a smooth, non-coarse, liquid, non-digital sound.

I have only heard the Hugo via USB without the aid of USB converter. Supposedly the Hugo sounds better with a good USB converter. The Hugo is a moderately resolving DAC, but I do not like many aspects of it. This is speaking from a DAC perspective: 1) Lean tone, although this synergies with Audeze headphones; 2) Rough treble; 3) Slightly micro-dynamically flat and un-involving; 4) Macro-dynamically flat – unable to slam or hit hard; 5) Imbalanced stage dimensions - extremely wide stage but with zero depth.

The Hugo can sound detailed, articulate, and precise; but ultimately it’s what I would label “dead-digital”. A lot of people like the Hugo on HF though, so who I am to say? Then again, I believe the Hugo might have the most mentions in the "Five Worse Pieces of Audio Gear You’v e Heard" thread: http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1946.0.html

The Theta Gen V compared to the above two DAC has no flaws. Soundstage, imaging, are separation are particularly uncanny and real. Dynamics and slam are in higher league.

Q: Why there is no hype for other dac which you ranking above Hugo?
A: The question should be “Why does Hugo get so much hype on HF?” I can only speculate: 1) Chord knows how to establish industry connections - gives Hugos out to other vendors at the shows, gets Hugos in the hands of important industry people; 2) Chord is a UK company. There is a strong UK hi-fi cabal that promotes its own. This includes Linn, Naim, Meridian, etc. For all we know, members of the UK hi-fi press love to lick the UK manufacturers' balls and get free gear in return; 3) Many people who love the Hugo have not heard anything better. I've noticed many newbies who went straight to the Hugo; 4) Chord stuff looks cute (or stupid depending upon your tastes) - people like to buy cute shiny things; 5) Chord is a marketing company first and foremost. The huge discounts on the Hugo, if one knows where to look, is an indication of this; 6) HF every now and then tends to create hype. Sometimes deserved. Most of the time not. The Audio-GD stuff is still hyped to this day. Other craptastic DACs like the Yulong or Teac have also been hyped.

It would be interesting to study and deconstruct Chord’s marketing techniques for an MBA class.

Q: What's the sound you are looking for?
A: Answered in the first question.

Q: What's your reference dac these days ?
A: The Theta Gen Va is my reference DAC. Soon my reference DAC will be Yggdrasil. BTW, the Theta was quite hyped in its day and had a long run of 10 years. Every now and then, I will hear stories from veteran hi-fi sales-guys who lined up all the TOTL DACs back in the day and concluded that the Theta stuff beat them all. This coming from people who sold the competition such as Mark Levinson.
 
Q: What's the best DAC you ever listened to but couldn't buy?
A: One year ago, I would say it was the MSB Signature with Neutron-Star clocks or whatever.
Today, there is no such thing. I will buy the best DAC I have heard, which is the Yggdrasil.
 
Q: What's the most important part of DAC and amp?
A: The D-A conversion and digital filter. Everything else such as the power supply, data receivers, and other supporting circuitry is important of course. But assuming all other sections are implemented well, it will be the D-A conversion and digital filter that determine final sound quality.

For example, I have never heard a Sabre DAC (despite whatever implementation) that I would buy with no qualms. But I have owned or still own PMD100/UltraAnalog, ThetaDSP/PCM63, AgdDSP/PCM1704, AKM, and Wolfson DACs.

Q: Are you listening to headphone or speakers?
A: Mostly speakers and on occasion headphones. Speakers tend to be more demanding of a DACs' staging and macrodynamic capabilities. Headphones tend to be more demanding of a DAC's resolution and microdynamics. There are exceptions to the rule of course.
 
 
« Last Edit: March 10, 2015, 04:49:20 PM by marvey »
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Sorrodje

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Re: Marvey's DAC Adventures
« Reply #24 on: March 09, 2015, 09:47:41 PM »

About the Hugo : we just published my own review of this product : http://www.tellementnomade.org/feedback-chord-hugo/  Maybe google translate won't destroy it ?

Marvey

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Re: Marvey's DAC Adventures
« Reply #25 on: March 09, 2015, 10:29:50 PM »

My french is rusty, but I should be able to figure it out with Google translate as a crutch.
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Sorrodje

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Re: Marvey's DAC Adventures
« Reply #26 on: March 09, 2015, 10:32:14 PM »

I say basically the same thing than

Quote from: marvey
This is speaking from a DAC perspective: 1) Lean tone, although this synergies with Audeze headphones; 2) Rough treble; 3) Slightly micro-dynamically flat and un-involving; 4) Macro-dynamically flat – unable to slam or hit hard; 5) Imbalanced stage dimensions - extremely wide stage but with zero depth.

The Hugo can sound detailed, articulate, and precise; but ultimately it’s what I would label “dead-digital”

Marvey

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Re: Marvey's DAC Adventures
« Reply #27 on: March 09, 2015, 10:32:47 PM »

Hahaha. Really no need for translate. I love how you started the first paragraph. This is good writing. Good to read.
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Marvey

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Re: Marvey's DAC Adventures
« Reply #28 on: March 09, 2015, 10:44:23 PM »

Disons-le clairement : ce truc ressemble à jouet clignotant pour enfant en bas âge.


I just spit my afternoon coffee into the monitor screen in laughter!
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BlackenedPlague

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Re: Marvey's DAC Adventures
« Reply #29 on: March 10, 2015, 01:31:15 AM »

Ok Marv what is the cheapest dac you like?
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