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Author Topic: Purely speculative - Rag, Yggy, Theta - how tech development affects sound, etc.  (Read 1867 times)

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Solderdude

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Despite Jason mentioning designers will probably disagree with what he is 'claiming' I don't think they will.
I don't in any case.

Firstly PCB design is very important (even more so in digital IMO) and certainly when higher currents are in play (speaker amps)
Also I agree with his feedback assesment (crap happening in the amp being 'nulled' with a counter input voltage at the input stage)
Furthermore I don't think topology/components used is that important by itself.
Accuracy (on a number of aspects) is important to get good results.

I use non overall and local (if any) feedback in my designs myself and even though it is having higher amount of distortion I don't think those levels of distortion are detrimental to the sound if they remain low enough under real world circumstances (isn't the same as on a test bench).

IMO opinion an amp should be tested under 'real loads' with real music and nulling input and output and listening to the result (the nulled) signal can give a good indication of how good an amp is.
test bench results are handy to show some basic and comparative numbers that should be viewed as a whole (and not as individual parameters) and should also be accompanied with some plots to show relations.

It is impossible to test out any speaker amp with all speakers and see which may not be driven well and standard measurements (which could be used for comparing aspects) WON'T show all aspects.
It is NOT that it cannot be measured or quantified or is impossible to measure but there are no 'standards' on how a speaker or headphone should/must behave.
They certainly aren't linear by a long shot.
So... yes .. measurements don't say it all and not because differences cannot be measured BUT because there is no standard to which they should comply and can be compared.
Having a 'standard' speaker load emulation (a selection of inductors, coils and resistors and perhaps even back EMF ?) will not be enough as amp designers could 'cheat' and get that to perform well but react poorly to other loads.

There is really no way to test/compare it all. Even a differential amp cannot show everything because it also reacts to phase differences which may not be detrimental but do show up as an error signal.
Listening to a differential signal under different difficult loads (NOT a digitally recorded dif signal) is a really good way to asses how an amp performs in real life situations with music.

Having more than 24 bits won't enhance resolution in practice simply because of S/N ratio and accuracy/linearity of components the DAC is made of are the limiting factor.
Ladder DACs with real 24 bit linearity simply cannot be created simply by lack of accuracy (tolerance) of parts.
This is easier to do with oversampling as higher frequencies aren't as difficult to make as higher accuracy.

Audio isn't voodoo or an art form it's just that not all designers know what matters the most and some of them (mostly bigger companies) only design to earn a living and make devices that must be able to do more or other things than other brands. Also in order to increase sales.
To me it appears as though Schiit doesn't give a schiit about it but wants to bring well made stuff for 'low end' prices.
They could easily move their schiit into a much higher price range (at slightly higher production costs) and sell it for 10x as much.
In that case they would likely sell 10x less schiit and thus not get richer so I REALLY appreciate their philosophy of good affordable schiit for the audio minded masses.
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ultrabike

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The little I know about thermal drift is that as things get hot, optimal linear operating points change and it seems the Rggy has a uP specifically to deal with that.

I also liked the pudding, and pretty much every Schiit amp I heard so far. A lot.
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Anaxilus

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There are a lot of crap sounding SS amps out there that claim to represent the pinnacle of electronic transparency possible yet pale in comparison to the performance and sound of the Rag.  I fail to see how those designers would agree with Jason's approach.  I can think of at least 5-6 of them off the top of my head who are commonly referenced and purchased if you want me to name names.

I, like you, would like to think do but I simply don't see it based on the sort of product proliferation I see out there.
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ultrabike

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You mean Self (among them ppls)? Nah. I think he is or was with Cambridge Audio. To him anything not the Azur 840A is proly crap, unless your name is [insert some random dude Self admires].
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OJneg

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Anax brings up a good point with regard to different designers coming from different backgrounds having converging philosophies. It seems to me the best amplifiers pay close attention to the implementation of the feedback loops, DC servos, biasing conditions, board layout, etc. Ti Kan, Cavalli, Gilmore, etc. (all of which make amps that pirates think favorably of) subscribe to design philosophies which aren't too far removed from Jason's. Albeit with quirks here and there.

It's really the Self's and Nwavguy's that are the minority here. They just have a disproportionately louder voice due to books, blogs, seminars combined with rabid minions set on pushing a parallel agenda.
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Solderdude

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Can you guys tell me what's WRONG with D Self's designs in a technical sense ?
(aside from the use of overall feedback, which can work quite well IF executed properly)

Could it be that someone who BUILDS his designs on breadboard, or makes a PCB himself, NOT being aware of proper layout could F-up the design in such a way that it sounds bad ?
Is that the designers (D.Self's) fault and does it make him someone that has no clue about audio ?
Or is he a bad designer because he measures/researches things to death and has a highly 'objective' standpoint because of it ?

The O2 design is just a simple C'Moy with the output stage doubled.
Could the PCB layout be improved ?  yes 
Would it have sounded better ? unlikely... it's just a C'moy and that's all what you can expect of it.







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schiit

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Can you guys tell me what's WRONG with D Self's designs in a technical sense ?
(aside from the use of overall feedback, which can work quite well IF executed properly)

Could it be that someone who BUILDS his designs on breadboard, or makes a PCB himself, NOT being aware of proper layout could F-up the design in such a way that it sounds bad ?
Is that the designers (D.Self's) fault and does it make him someone that has no clue about audio ?

The O2 design is just a simple C'Moy with the output stage doubled.
Could the PCB layout be improved ?  yes 
Would it have sounded better ? unlikely... it's just a C'moy.
So in the end the famous O2 is basically a simple C'Moy with a bit more power.
Is it arguably the 'end all amp' even though he claimed it was ?
Nope... it's just another C'Moy and that's all what you can expect of it.
Thousands of people love it to death... just not some guys here.


Self's designs all work very well from a THD and stability perspective, based on testing with steady-state sine waves. It's entirely possible that many of them could be butchered on the board, because it doesn't take much to turn 0.001% THD to 0.1% with high currents running around.

The grand irony with his work is that he simply codified the steady-state distortion mechanisms that any competent amp designer already knew about, and were typically already working to eliminate.

The main problem I have with him is that--unlike other writers like Cordell--he acts as a demagogue, declaring anything that deviates from his designs as "undesirable" or even not "allowable." See his latest rant on Class A amplifiers. Any topologies or approaches that deviate from his, whether CFA, folded cascode, single voltage gain stage, no overall feedback, tube gain, tubes, transformers, Class A, hell, even just using JFETs in the input stage--are instantly dismissed, and in sharply judgmental terms.

In my opinion, this kind of demagoguery not only causes divisiveness (by the acolytes convinced that there is One True Path) and actively inhibits any real advancement, since, hey, if the 5532 is the ultimate expression of what is needed for audio (per Self), why ever try for more?
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Lots o Schiit around here.

Solderdude

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I agree with the 'attitude' thing... it's unpleasant and far from 'constructive'.
It's similar to Harold's attitude and why he isn't liked much but the O2 will always be an O2.
Bob's books are indeed fun reading material.

Still, I don't think that some, well laid-out, D-Self designs can't sound good just because he is a 'know it all'.
I never built any of his designs though nor read his books/articles thoroughly, but when browsing through them I don't see a 'poor design' methodology which would result in bad sounding amps when properly built.

It seems that people not liking those 'characters' (and their disciples) as well as their attitudes, reflects on how their designs are (possibly) perceived.

I also agree about 'the One True Path' (super specs on the test bench is all that's needed) is plain insightful and wrong.
There isn't a 'One True Path' nor a 'best amp' there are LOTS of ways of creating designs and LOTS of good sounding amps (as well as crappy ones  ;D )
On the other hand the all subjective 'lets replace this or that diode/resistor in the power supply and it sounds better' path is just as wrong IMO.

There is something in the middle which is why I like Schiit products.
No claims, no BS (IMO).... nice looking and good performing and affordable designs ... just how I like it.
Just not everyone thinks that way.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2014, 03:37:21 PM by Solderdude »
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Anaxilus

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Still, I don't think that some, well laid-out, D-Self designs can't sound good just because he is a 'know it all'.

Where did you see anyone say that? 

The problem that myself, Jason and others have stated is that while they might produce something that sounds acceptable or 'good', their approach dismisses the potential for anything better.  Theirs is the 'reference' approach and any design that deviates is sacrilege to physics and basic science.  Not to mention hearing anything to sound better is also tantamount to any combination of ignorance/placebo/confirmation bias/psychological delusion.

Also, no one here has ever said you can measure anything too much.  In fact, most of us have been adamant that many of the so called self proclaimed measurements crowd aren't measuring enough or are measuring the wrong things.  This is because many of those folk haven't bothered to correlate actual listening and musical experience to such measurements.  Listening and hearing is untrustworthy.  The ears and brain are always deceivers.  Hell, many profess most sensory input to be basically illusory.  Most read a forceful blurb, article or a few notes and think to themselves, "Ah hah!  I got it all figured out now."  That attitude and approach is anathema to progress and basically human interaction tbh.

It's simply easier for some folks to feel secure in a blanket of half truths rather than go naked into what often times is a wilderness of ignorance.  In that I mean no matter how much we know, we are all ignorant in an absolute epistemological sense so we should approach the world as such.  That's really the core of the scientific approach and method.  Assuming that we know nothing, rather than knowing everything and confirming that bias.

Overall though, as you say I think most of us here are largely in agreement.
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ultrabike

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Yup. Him-Self designs are not necessarily miserable POSes IMO. But, for example, I started reading one of his books sometime ago, and a WTF moment hit me when reading one of his bookes Chapter 1's section on "Science and Subjectivism".

There is this attitude by some folks about "the right way" or "the rules" which I find a bit restrictive and progress inhibiting. It maybe understandably comfortable for some though.

It is what it is. Take the good and leave the bad.

I also consider myself much more of a learner at this point than anything else. Some of the discussion here pushes me to read and try shit out. I truly enjoy it.
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