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Author Topic: Carbo Tenore ZH-DX200-CT  (Read 7866 times)

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Anaxilus

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Re: Carbo Tenore ZH-DX200-CT
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2014, 05:47:37 AM »

It does have a good resemblance with your measurements so the Tenore measurements must be somewhat realistic at least.

I can't believe no one complaints about this roll-off ?

That doesn't necessarily follow.  Inductively, you make a cogent argument but it is not necessarily valid.  We won't know how sound it is until we get actual confirmation of the phone in question.

I'm skeptical myself as I do not like dark phones but I didn't run them through my suite of triangle, bell and chime test tracks.  I do find it suspect that 4khz before rolling off another 15-20dB is enough for pretty much 98% of all the impressions to not feel they were missing any significant treble.  If that's the case, it just means there's an abundance of information up there that most people don't mind missing out on.

I did note the following in my own review though:

http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1643.0.html

"I like the smooth and natural lower to mid treble on these.  If only they could get a bit more sibilance from the crashes."

"Timbre is much closer to the UERM than the ER4 which is a good thing.  This is good enough in my mind to help compensate with any resolution deficiency to a relative non-issue versus the ER4."

We also agreed the treble seemed too smooth in a colored and forgiving fashion.

"I’d say there is tonal trade-off here between the bite of the UERM and smoothness of the Zeros."

Then there was this.

"This confirmed my suspicion that while the mids and vocals of the Zeros are pleasing, they are ever so slightly recessed and a bit unresolved at the highest level, though they are smooth and not dry or crispy as is one of my pet peeves with some IEMs and phones that can’t do vocals.  By comparison, the UERMs just pull out so much more information on vocals like lips and deep breaths, stuff down in the throats and lays it out in a very smooth, natural, resolving and textured presentation."

So roll off was expected, but not 15-20dB worth in my mind.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 05:55:49 PM by Anaxilus »
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OJneg

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Re: Carbo Tenore ZH-DX200-CT
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2014, 06:33:08 AM »

If we really want to defer to the Golden Ears plots to judge frequency response, then we should be looking at the ER4S:





Let ultra measure the ER4S and see if the roll-off is still there. At this point, I'm willing to bet the ER4S is closer to the Tenore (in the treble) than it is the JVC. And I don't think anyone would say that the ER4S actually sounds like that in the treble, that's for sure. "Reference" 'phones don't stay around for long if they have response like that.

I'm also reminded of the Noble4 that ultra measured, which (IIRC) was similarly sloped but I felt was closer to neutral than anything ultra has measured so far.

Heck, at this point, I feel it would be easier to just subtract every other plot against the ER4S's response and call that the perceived response. Right now, ultra's IEM measurements require too much interpretation.
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Anaxilus

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Re: Carbo Tenore ZH-DX200-CT
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2014, 07:07:51 AM »

Honestly, the sheer physical differences amongst IEMs can alter how they interact with a given coupler, it's kind of a PITA compared to headphones.  I don't envy the task.
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Re: Carbo Tenore ZH-DX200-CT
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2014, 07:18:47 AM »

I'll do the Etys next.

First, I agree with Anax impressions. To me cymbals and stuff are there, but they sound distance. That said, I don't think its 15 or 20 dB of from what most people perceive from flat. Also note that these plots are aligned at 1 kHz. If I have chosen to align things with white or pink noise things might look less rolled off on the upper end.

Second, I heard both the Nobel 4s and the ER4S. To me the ER4S are NOT a reference of perceived response. They are just to damn lean and analytic. The ER4S have good clarity and maybe somewhat detailed, but they are far from neutral to my ears. I could use the ER4S as the "target curve" and call it a day... but what I measured w/o compensation is closer to what I hear: a hell of a lean sound signature. But hey, who am I?

Third, like Anax said, IEMs are really hard to measure, and perception differences are proly stronger here than with other headphone types.
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Claritas

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Re: Carbo Tenore ZH-DX200-CT
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2014, 07:28:38 AM »

Maybe it's a QC issue. There have been some discrepancies reported in bass. Why not in the treble? They're pretty cheap.
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OJneg

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Re: Carbo Tenore ZH-DX200-CT
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2014, 07:31:51 AM »

I'll do the Etys next.

First, I agree with Anax impressions. To me cymbals and stuff are there, but they sound distance. That said, I don't think its 15 or 20 dB of from what most people perceive from flat. Also note that these plots are aligned at 1 kHz. If I have chosen to align things with white or pink noise things might look less rolled off on the upper end.

Second, I heard both the Nobel 4s and the ER4S. To me the ER4S are NOT a reference of perceived response. They are just to damn lean and analytic. The ER4S have good clarity and maybe somewhat detailed, but they are far from neutral to my ears. I could use the ER4S as the "target curve" and call it a day... but what I measured w/o compensation is closer to what I hear: a hell of a lean sound signature. But hey, who am I?

Third, like Anax said, IEMs are really hard to measure, and perception differences are proly stronger here than with other headphone types.

Can always compensate for the bass if we don't feel that's correct. Golden Ears sure doesn't. But in terms of midrange and treble tone, the Etys are spot on to my ears.
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Anaxilus

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Re: Carbo Tenore ZH-DX200-CT
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2014, 08:14:55 AM »

ER4S is always going to be controversial simply because it's one of the most difficult to get a fit any given user finds comfortable and actually performs as intended at the same time. 
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Re: Carbo Tenore ZH-DX200-CT
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2014, 09:26:38 AM »

Ah... those ER4S measurements gave the explanation.



vs GE



It is clear to see that (as mentioned by Marv) UB doesn't compensate FR, they are raw plots.
GE does.
What could be deducted is that the Tenores should have a lot more highs but will still be softer than 'flat'.
This jives with all the reports.

Perhaps it may be an idea to create a compensation curve based on the ER4S which, aside from some bass roll-off seems pretty accurate all the way up.
That compensation curve could be based on one or more other 'known' IEM's measured by GE and maybe some input by Anax (how he perceives them)
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tomscy2000

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Re: Carbo Tenore ZH-DX200-CT
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2014, 01:51:09 PM »

GoldenEars uses bass compensation to overcome the "missing 6 dB" effect. The Etymotic-type people (e.g. Rin) think boosting bass is unnecessary, and would rather rely on expectation training to overcome the lack of tactile/visceral bass response as well as delayed bone conduction response (along with other factors not fully understood).

The main issue is a design issue. You can't simply design an IEM to have +6 dB in the sub-bass region only, and simultaneously phase delay it. The one earphone that comes closest right now is the SE846, and it's not close to perfect. Designing sub-bass only bass boost is not trivial.

That's why I opt for a compromise of sorts. I tend to like +3-4 dB of shelf boost <600 Hz. For me, perhaps because I'm used to it, I can overcome hearing thresholds in the sub-bass this way, while the additional mild boost of +3-4 dB isn't enough to psychoacoustically mask away midrange details much.
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MuZo2

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Re: Carbo Tenore ZH-DX200-CT
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2014, 11:36:51 AM »

Do we have measurement for Sony mh1c. As Tenore are compared to MH1C would like to see how FR looks for both.
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