Quote from: gurubhai on May 25, 2014, 08:34:03 AM

TBH, I don't have much experience with stats but I have come across this 'ethereal' kind of sound a few times while tweaking my orthos.
The two factors which seem to be associated with this are
1) Rolled off sub-bass

I'm struggling to get my head around how sub bass roll off is going to play a part in a "ethereal" sound?  On recordings with little to no sub bass is the ethereal quality lost?

My contention was that the bass(even excellent) tends to negative affect the cleanliness and instrument separation. The way I perceive it, the image of a musical instrument is composed mainly of two components - a sharply defined core which is mainly the higher frequencies and a more diffuse 'halo' around it which is the bass and harmonics. When we start shaving off on bass and harmonics, the images become cleaner and more defined and more separated from each other (almost floating freely ).  It might sound great with some music and give an impression of increased resolution but I don't consider the effect natural. Too much of a good thing for me, personally.

Quote from: gurubhai on May 25, 2014, 08:34:03 AM

e) Low level information/ resolution - This one is interesting because on one hand these headphones sound very clean and have great imaging/separation which gives the impression of increased resolution. On the other hand, they have trouble with microdynamics, timbre issues and a short decay which affects the overall realism of the presentation. I expect people with differing priorities to have different opinions regarding this.

Ummm yeah, you're right.  I'm not sure how my priorities play into it, but I'm a long way from agreeing with stats "having trouble with micro dynamics", especially the high end stuff.  Fed right, few headphones offer equal or better resolution. 

Umm, I didn't say that.I was discussing a specific presentation of planar headphones which seems to have become the 'house sound' of stax lately.It seems that someone over at Stax headquarters decided that the hyperclean ethereal presentation was the correct one. Some of us just don't find that  presentation natural.I actually don't doubt that a perfectly damped electrostat with good bass extension would in theory offer the 'pinnacle' of performance, its just that the Stax seems to have taken a wrong turn somewhere.

There are some other anectodal evidences that the Staxens may be overdamped.
1) Some members mentioning the older Stax models sounding more natural which have a thicker diaphragm and which would be damped lesser given same amount of damping.
2) I have read reports of people removing the foam at the back of their stax stats and finding it to sound better.

You mentioned that you like the Omega and Jade better than any other stat in yo ur collection. Can you expound on that?
What is it that makes you prefer them to the current stax flagship SR009?

I really don't think it's a matter of rolled off sub-bass.  Most planars and stats extend very well to 20hz and beyond.  Plus many dynamics that roll off objectively even more have more weight and natural presence. The fact that older stats and Stax sound more natural when they have heavier diaphragms speaks volumes to me.  I still it's Force related to Mass.  If you think about all the natural instruments in existence, none of them vibrate air molecules with the same speed and low mass as modern Stax.  I find it an interesting discrepancy however misguided it may be.

I think what you're interpreting as short decay and sub-bass roll off actually isn't.  If the speed/acceleration is there, which it is for stats, decay should be transparent to the recording material be reproduced.  Technically it appears to be based on the CSDs showing them to be more ideal than others.  However, listening just seems to indicate something is off, and this is true for the planar speakers too IME.  Rather than roll-off or decay, I think this is another case just like DACs and amps where we need to consider that there is a missing metric that needs to be considered.  This is a typical case of technological development outpacing standardized metrics which causes people's ears to be perplexed when compared with what they see in their measurements.  In this case, I think there needs to be established some sort of minimal 'F' point (Force) where mass and acceleration can provide the necessary impact to drive a certain volume of air molecules a certain speed.  I mean, if we make a driver out of photons with immense acceleration, how would that sound?  Probably not very good.  Err, correction, probably not at all.

I really don't think it's a matter of rolled off sub-bass.  Most planars and stats extend very well to 20hz and beyond.  Plus many dynamics that roll off objectively even more have more weight and natural presence. The fact that older stats and Stax sound more natural when they have heavier diaphragms speaks volumes to me.  I still it's Force related to Mass.  If you think about all the natural instruments in existence, none of them vibrate air molecules with the same speed and low mass as modern Stax.  I find it an interesting discrepancy however misguided it may be.

Its not just a matter of rolled of sub-bass but a combination of factors which also include a relative lack of harmonics and a shorter than natural decay.

I think what you're interpreting as short decay and sub-bass roll off actually isn't.  If the speed/acceleration is there, which it is for stats, decay should be transparent to the recording material be reproduced.  Technically it appears to be based on the CSDs showing them to be more ideal than others.  However, listening just seems to indicate something is off, and this is true for the planar speakers too IME.

I don't agree that just because stats have a lower mass, that they are capable of maintaining that speed/acceleration at all stages of driver motion.

Many people seem to hold a notion that the trouble with the heavier diaphragms of ortho/dynamics is that it is not capable of achieving the speed/acceleration that a lighter diaphragm can which is incorrect. If you provide enough force than the driver in spite of its mass would attain the desired acceleration and ergo speed. The trouble is that by achieving that speed coupled to its mass, it gains a massive momentum which can not be controlled just by the electromagnetic input of the driver. It must have some form of mechanical damping to retard that momentum so that it stops when its being asked to. Since it won't stop when it should, it starts oscillating at a frequency most of you speaker guys would know as the primary resonant frequency of that driver (for behaviour in free air). As this frequency is usually somewhere in the bass region, you get a headphone with bloated bass, lack of resolution/transparency, and overall a thicker sound with longer than natural decay.

The electrostats have the reverse problem, they too attain the speed/acceleration but probably never enough momentum. If there is even a small amount of external damping present , then the driver would decelerate quicker than it should and it would actually be movement restricted at the extremes. I believe that it is that restriction of movement that leads to a shorter than natural decay and compression of microdynamics.

An ideally damped driver would of course be in a such a state of equilibrium that it would no longer be affected by any of the mechanical factors. It would accelerate, move, stop, turn and then accelerate again at the sole discretion of the signal governing it.

In this case, I think there needs to be established some sort of minimal 'F' point (Force) where mass and acceleration can provide the necessary impact to drive a certain volume of air molecules a certain speed.  I mean, if we make a driver out of photons with immense acceleration, how would that sound?  Probably not very good.  Err, correction, probably not at all.

Exactly, I am actually saying the same thing. It won't produce a sound because despite its supposed immense acceleration, its motion would be completely negated by the mechanical damping effect of air. Yup, this one's overdamped too!

Quote from: Anaxilus on May 26, 2014, 10:30:36 AM

I mean, if we make a driver out of photons with immense acceleration, how would that sound?  Probably not very good.  Err, correction, probably not at all.

Simple: position two pulsars on opposing sides of a nebula that's bisected by a solar sail, each equidistant and perpendicular to the sail's center. Modulate their respective rotational periods and you'll have a cosmic stat.

That's cheating, you added a mass driver with the solar sail.  Fun idea though to potentially stave off an alien invasion, just need to add some Nicky Minaj to the mix.  Truth be told, I actually like a few of her songs, but it's an acquired taste.