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Author Topic: Mini-Meet El-Lay May 10, 2014 Impressions  (Read 8836 times)

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AZ

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Re: Mini-Meet El-Lay May 10, 2014 Impressions
« Reply #40 on: May 13, 2014, 08:04:20 AM »

Hi,
   This is my First post and English is my Second language so please take it easy on me. My name is Alex Zaets and I was the one who modified the PM-1s in question.
   First of all I have to say a big THANK YOU for all the critique, I just LOVE the honesty  and truth no matter how hard it hits me. Have to admit initially I would always get mad but then good critique pushes me into thinking hardest and what can be better then such a free stimulator. I personally consider myself to be brutally honest with everyone/everything and after reading through posts on this forum am hoping to partner with similar souls. Some of you I have already had great pleasure of meeting and arguing with and others I am hoping to personally meet in the future.
   Here is my story with Oppo: I was one of their beta testers and with all my impressions dealt directly with Igor. I gave a lot of critique, basically most if not all the points that were addressed online through all the forums up until now one could read in my emails to Igor from long ago. This means even though I always saw strengths of this headphone there was weaknesses that I personally could never live with. As some of you well know I do DSP and saw an opportunity to correct yet another headset with my algorithms.
   The problem was no matter how I try it wasn't coming along well enough with my PM-1. Therefore I decided to try and do my first ever modification.
   First problem arose in the process when my left and right drivers measured +_3db different throughout the entire FR (probably the reason why my beta unit sounded slightly more dull then retail versions as was noted earlier in this thread). I pretty much had to not only build a mod for each driver separately but since what was best for one wasn't as good for the other I had to allow a few compromises for the drivers to mach with each other as good as possible in overall response. My end result was +_ 0.5db throughout the entire range between the two! Another issue I too late found out about was the pads I used, they were the ones every beta tester disliked and for a good reason. Later on Oppo reps told me they measured bad in their own testing because of the foam material used but for me it didn't matter as I had no other choice (retail units now have a totally different foam for velour pads). So I dealt with what I had because one of my main goals was to save the original look and craftsmanship.
   In the end what had to be modified was: the driver itself, the pads enclosures, the dampening materials, the inner shell structure and materials. The end result was much flatter FR, further extended low and high frequency, bigger and more open soundstage through significant changes in inner and outer dampening materials/structure, total disappearance of bumps in 200-500hz range etc, etc.
   Unfortunately no driver is perfect and the smoother the response the easier it becomes to notice the slightest issue. In the case of my modded unit I left approximately 1.5db rise in the 3-4.5khz range that became apparent to some. Guilty, I admit......won't happen again;-). But to say my unit was similar or just plain bad in a different way as was the original is hardly possible. I challenge anyone to put their reference headset against this Oppo (well, ok. tight after that little HF bump is gone ;-) give it a serious listen/measurement and really judge the summary of  all sound components to see if  my PM-1 is such a sucker.
   As for the measurements it now shows +_2.5db over entire range for both ears, anyone wants to challenge that?
   Looking forward to a good discussion.
Best regards
Alex
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Anaxilus

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Re: Mini-Meet El-Lay May 10, 2014 Impressions
« Reply #41 on: May 13, 2014, 08:17:16 AM »

I like Ohhgourami a lot, great guy.  Sorry but in my opinion I think the Krell sounds god awful and it's the second time I've heard it even after new changes.  Slow, dark, muddy and bloated.  Hate to say it, but power amps for the HE6 only seem to convince me that most people are coloring the HE6 and liking it rather than driving it to magical levels of power and performance.  I'm pretty sure if I had to do a blind test between the HE6 into that Krell versus the HE6 into the Meridian Explorer I would not be able to tell the difference.  Or one could just get one of the plethora of inevitable used Oppo PM1s about to flood the market and plug it into an iPhone.  This is just my off the wall opinion after clearly waking up on the wrong side of the bed.   

The 445 was pretty clearly superior in just about every way imaginable with the HE6.

And yes, they clearly scaled better on a sucky distorting tube amp versus the monster SS Krell.  Go figure.

I rarely post my impressions, but feel compelled to do so now.  Regarding Krell, I've never understood its draw on the HF HE-6 thread.  Never considered it for my speaker system, and would not consider it for headphones, but is it the same as Meridian Explorer?  Of course not.  That's just silly talk.  As for using speaker amps for HE-6, it's unfortunate that it has become a punch-line for non-believers and a self-defeating mantra for believers because there really can be impressive results when the right amp is found.  And what is the right amp?  Well, does it really matter if it's head- or speaker-based amp so long as its signature matches your sonic DNA?  Many of the posters on the HF thread bend over backwards to cite rational justifications for speaker amps in order to combat the naysayers who use the concept of volume to disprove the need for speaker amps.  It's a silly game.

I sold the rest of my headphones and head amps and removed bookmarks to HF FS forums and audiogon once I heard a HE-6 through a Pass INT30A, which btw is only 30 watts at 8 ohms.  Nothing I've owned (BA, Stratus, Liquid Glass, S7, Woo WA5LE, First Watt J2 w/HD800, HE-6, LCD3, TH900, W3000Anv) or auditioned (LL2 w/009) comes close.  At some point, I hope folks stop trying to justify or dismantle someone's amp choice (assuming it's a genuine one).  Full disclosure: my speaker system is also Pass-based (X250.5 and XP20), so I clearly like its "colour".  There is an amp (Pass INT30A) that I enjoy and I'm grateful that there is a pair of headphones (HE-6) that allow me to hear it.  It's really that simple.


K, I'm not sure what you are trying to infer from my post. I've heard the rig in question (twice) and you haven't as far as I can tell. It sounds exactly like I said it does compared to a Meridian Explorer, that was not a joke or exaggeration. I wasn't 'dismantling' anything if that comment was directed at me.  I don't think I said anything about your Pass so no need to get all defensive and snide with my impressions alright? Thx.  Might want to be more specific than nothing comes close too. Without specifics that's just hyperbole that might be hard for some to take seriously. I mean you're posting impressions wit hout actually offering impressions of a meet you weren't at about gear that wasn't there, kind of confused by that. I do get your point about the power amp debate conundrum and it's valid. I just don't think it's at odds with anything I said wrt most people getting it wrong. If you quoted me by mistake, then nvm.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2014, 08:32:25 AM by Anaxilus »
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Sholay

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Re: Mini-Meet El-Lay May 10, 2014 Impressions
« Reply #42 on: May 13, 2014, 12:46:39 PM »

Hi All,
The new HE560 looks interesting and i may want to go for it. But the really bad experience with HE400 is pulling me back. So, not judging by price, is the HE560 a significant improvement over HE400 ?

Issues i had with My Pair of HE400 :
- Poor midrange resolution
- Artificially extended, tizzy and distorted Treble
- Really grey background

Also, is the HE560 treble smooth/resolute/extended or O2 like/extended ?
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sachu

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Re: Mini-Meet El-Lay May 10, 2014 Impressions
« Reply #43 on: May 13, 2014, 03:02:49 PM »

This is my PM1 unit you all are talking about right? i can send it back to oppo to have it examined, but i doubt its a defective pair
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insidious meme

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Re: Mini-Meet El-Lay May 10, 2014 Impressions
« Reply #44 on: May 13, 2014, 03:30:54 PM »

I would like to thank everyone at the meet in welcoming a noob like me into the world of higher end audio. As you can tell I'm still learning and am not afraid of criticism. Anyway I should at some point get at least some of the gear that's been talked about. I did enjoy the he-560 like everyone else. Can't explain it but it sounded good on my end and it'll be something for me to watch out for. Oh yeah a dac and amp would also help. Thanks all.  :)p2
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Anaxilus

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Re: Mini-Meet El-Lay May 10, 2014 Impressions
« Reply #45 on: May 13, 2014, 05:12:50 PM »

Hi All,
The new HE560 looks interesting and i may want to go for it. But the really bad experience with HE400 is pulling me back. So, not judging by price, is the HE560 a significant improvement over HE400 ?

Issues i had with My Pair of HE400 :
- Poor midrange resolution
- Artificially extended, tizzy and distorted Treble
- Really grey background

Also, is the HE560 treble smooth/resolute/extended or O2 like/extended ?

You should be fine, the 400 and 560 are worlds apart.  The 400 is kind of a one trick pony which can also be fine overall if a lot of caveats work out for you.  Obviously they didn't in your case.
_____

Yeah Sach, these are yours.  I don't think they are defective and share the same overall sig as the prototypes, I'm pretty sure they are working as intended.  FWIW, I did say I liked them more than the modded $25 Tascams. ;P 

Honestly at $300-$400 I could see them being an alternative to the 600/650 for some folks just like the AIAIAI TMA-1 were a dark alternative for other phones back in the day.  But at the asking price, there is just a minimum level of performance one should expect beyond just frequency response.
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OJneg

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Re: Mini-Meet El-Lay May 10, 2014 Impressions
« Reply #46 on: May 13, 2014, 05:30:36 PM »

The PM1 were better in the sense that they had a smoother overall response.  But even then, the PM1 sounded more claustrophobic than anything else at the meet. At least with the modded pads, I felt the TH02 matched the PM1 in technicalities. Particularly in the bass, where the TH02 excels.
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sachu

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Re: Mini-Meet El-Lay May 10, 2014 Impressions
« Reply #47 on: May 13, 2014, 05:38:53 PM »

that's it.. its official.. my ears are  poo  lols

I dunno, I like the PM1..for extended listening its one of the comfiest orthos out there. One thing i do agree is that it excels at nothing but isn't horrendously bad at anything IMHo at least.

I do tend to like a darker sound signature.

In the end, I didn't have to pay anything for it thanks to Oppo so I am not complaining.
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givemevinyl

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Re: Mini-Meet El-Lay May 10, 2014 Impressions
« Reply #48 on: May 13, 2014, 06:26:21 PM »

[quote author=Anaxilus link=topic=1589.msg42118#msg42118 date=1399969036
K, I'm not sure what you are trying to infer from my post. I've heard the rig in question (twice) and you haven't as far as I can tell. It sounds exactly like I said it does compared to a Meridian Explorer, that was not a joke or exaggeration. I wasn't 'dismantling' anything if that comment was directed at me.  I don't think I said anything about your Pass so no need to get all defensive and snide with my impressions alright? Thx.  Might want to be more specific than nothing comes close too. Without specifics that's just hyperbole that might be hard for some to take seriously. I mean you're posting impressions without actually offering impressions of a meet you weren't at about gear that wasn't there, kind of confused by that. I do get your point about the power amp debate conundrum and it's valid. I just don't think it's at odds with anything I said wrt most people getting it wrong. If you quoted me by mistake, then nvm.
[/quote]

Hmm, "defensive and snide"...well that pretty much puts the kibosh on any useful dialog so...on with the regularly broadcast program.  But you are right about one thing, it really wasn't an "impression".
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AZ

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Re: Mini-Meet El-Lay May 10, 2014 Impressions
« Reply #49 on: May 13, 2014, 06:35:36 PM »

The mods did add some air, but elevated the mid treble, thereby introducing an incoherent balance between the lower and upper registers. It almost fools you into thinking you are getting more openness and sense of space. Until you realize it doesn't.
   There really was no fooling. If you saw the original PM-1, inside there is a ton of dampening. With my mod to the driver I was able to reduce the amount of dampening materials behind it to pretty much zero. That and changes to the main enclosure brought a lot of air and openness to the sound, one just had to be accustomed to their signature a little I guess.
   There was also psycho-acoustical phenomenon at play when you listen two similar sets side by side all the tiny imperfections of each one get accentuated big time and none of us can really have control over it.
   Hope this helps.
     
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