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Author Topic: HD580  (Read 7538 times)

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mechgamer123

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Re: HD580
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2014, 08:58:27 AM »

^ Squished pads? Mine get all closed in and warmer when the pads need changing.
I purchased them brand new (or at least supposedly new from Razor Dog Audio) and the pads seemed to be new along with everything else, so I'm not so sure it was the pads. Maybe it was just a bad batch though?
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ultrabike

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Re: HD580
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2014, 09:54:03 AM »

I think it's possible that there was a QA or product variation problem.

Note however that the veil and lack of detail issue even has a dedicated HF beat the Sarah Jessica Parker smiley associated with it according to these sources:

http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/very-important-sennheiser-hd-580-hd-600-and-hd-650
http://www.head-fi.org/t/630723/themed-monthly-avatar-committee-tmac-discussion-thread/3210#post_9245472

And it's been hinted, also in the past, that these perception might be a result of setting a particular headphone: Beyer, Grado, AT, and even some Stax as references, all of which might be relatively indeed brighter, and sometimes described as more detailed.

FWIW I also felt that relative to the HD600 and HD580, the AD might hit deeper, were a tad brighter and perhaps a little more analytical.

Also, in the frequency response overlay below, the Alpha Dogs seem to exhibit more energy in the mid and upper treble region up to 13 or 14 kHz where the AD starts to roll off around the air region. IMO brightness might be more of a 5 to 13 kHz deal



That said, the ADs I heard were nowhere near the levels of brightness of my DT990-250. Just boost that 5 to 13 kHz range with an EQ to the levels displayed here and you might hear what I mean:



EDIT: Shut, for some reason I read you had the ADs instead of the MDs MechG... Sorry about that. I though the MDs were a little warmer but deeper in the bass (relative to HD600s). The MDs have gone through some revisions. But like Hans said below, the do seem to have a slight hump at 10 kHz.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2014, 04:19:08 PM by ultrabike »
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Re: HD580
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2014, 10:25:53 AM »

There's just something that I can't quite correlate to measurements, it's the apparent "clarity" to my ears. For some reason, my HD600s just didn't sound as "clear" or "hi-fidelity" to me as other things I've heard. Again, I have no clue what area of the frequency range it is or whatever, but my set just didn't sound as good as "clear" as my Mad Dogs, despite the fact that most of the MDs treble is quieter than the HD600.

I don't necessarily think this is too off topic, especially since we can probably have a good, insightful discussion about it compared to some other well-known headphone sites.

Again, it could just be product variation, even with the Mad Dog (MD variation, I'd guess, is more likely than Senn. variation). FWIW, I think some measurements show the Mad Dog as more laid-back or having less treble than it does, but I have a history of being sensitive to treble as-is. But, even on this site, you can find a few HD580/600 measurements that show slight differences in the treble, enough to potentially explain what you heard.

The Mad Dog/T50RP also doesn't have the smoothest treble, so there could be emphasis spots that correlate to a sense of clarity. The T50RP seems pretty notorious for showing a spike around 10KHz in measurements, and I find that spot to add a sense of clarity to the sound.

I know some have said the HD600/650 can be a bit slow or warm. Perhaps that could be "crowding out" a sense of clarity, especially since the HD600 exhibits signs of extra harmonic distortion in the bass. I'd guess that coupled with the slight rise in the mid/upper bass contributes to that.

These possible factors aside, personal tastes and your frame of reference in which you judge something play a large role in perception. I have not heard the HD600 (most similar was the HD598), but I'd wager they're probably a better point of reference than most other headphones. That's not to say your personal tastes and hearing sensitivities perfectly match up with a known good frame of reference (thinking more objectively here), but there's nothing wrong with that.
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Re: HD580
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2014, 04:24:22 PM »

Shut, thanks Hans! For some reason I thought MechG had the ADs instead of the MDs facepalm
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CEE TEE

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Re: HD580
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2014, 06:36:52 PM »

I know some have said the HD600/650 can be a bit slow or warm. Perhaps that could be "crowding out" a sense of clarity, especially since the HD600 exhibits signs of extra harmonic distortion in the bass. I'd guess that coupled with the slight rise in the mid/upper bass contributes to that.

I tend to think that this is the case by looking at the CSDs and listening.  But we enjoy this series for the tonal balance- not hurting us with peaks, or annoying us with suck-outs.  People tune to taste with the slight differences in FR between the models. Just solid, nice cans, with good value compared to lots of stuff.  Oh, and they can sound "great"/quite different on various pieces of gear...
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Thujone

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Re: HD580
« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2014, 06:48:03 PM »

mech, I wasn't trying to be rude. Like UB said, the topic of veiled or not veiled has been nearly beat to death; I was merely teasing.

hans and CT both have very good points. Your perception of the ideal sound and your equipment will both contribute to how the HD600's sound to you, especially considering their scalability.
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mechgamer123

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Re: HD580
« Reply #26 on: January 20, 2014, 11:37:50 PM »

I think it's possible that there was a QA or product variation problem.

Note however that the veil and lack of detail issue even has a dedicated HF beat the Sarah Jessica Parker smiley associated with it according to these sources:

http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/very-important-sennheiser-hd-580-hd-600-and-hd-650
http://www.head-fi.org/t/630723/themed-monthly-avatar-committee-tmac-discussion-thread/3210#post_9245472

And it's been hinted, also in the past, that these perception might be a result of setting a particular headphone: Beyer, Grado, AT, and even some Stax as references, all of which might be relatively indeed brighter, and sometimes described as more detailed.

FWIW I also felt that relative to the HD600 and HD580, the AD might hit deeper, were a tad brighter and perhaps a little more analytical.

Also, in the frequency response overlay below, the Alpha Dogs seem to exhibit more energy in the mid and upper treble region up to 13 or 14 kHz where the AD starts to roll off around the air region. IMO brightness might be more of a 5 to 13 kHz deal



That said, the ADs I heard were nowhere near the levels of brightness of my DT990-250. Just boost that 5 to 13 kHz range with an EQ to the levels displayed here and you might hear what I mean:



EDIT: Shut, for some reason I read you had the ADs instead of the MDs MechG... Sorry about that. I though the MDs were a little warmer but deeper in the bass (relative to HD600s). The MDs have gone through some revisions. But like Hans said below, the do seem to have a slight hump at 10 kHz.
Huh, I had no idea that smiley was about the HD6X0 series being veiled! :o

That's interesting, it seems that the treble on the AD doesn't get very much louder than the Senns for very long, but yet they do sound brighter than what I think the measurements should indicate...

In all fairness, at one point while owning the HD600s I owned the Brainwavz B2s, which have treble peaks of death and I was probably using that as my reference at the time; frankly I don't remember now. And now I have STAX SR-202s. I have no idea where they sit among the other Lambdas that have been measured, but they're my current reference for "clarity".

There's just something that I can't quite correlate to measurements, it's the apparent "clarity" to my ears. For some reason, my HD600s just didn't sound as "clear" or "hi-fidelity" to me as other things I've heard. Again, I have no clue what area of the frequency range it is or whatever, but my set just didn't sound as good as "clear" as my Mad Dogs, despite the fact that most of the MDs treble is quieter than the HD600.

I don't necessarily think this is too off topic, especially since we can probably have a good, insightful discussion about it compared to some other well-known headphone sites.

Again, it could just be product variation, even with the Mad Dog (MD variation, I'd guess, is more likely than Senn. variation). FWIW, I think some measurements show the Mad Dog as more laid-back or having less treble than it does, but I have a history of being sensitive to treble as-is. But, even on this site, you can find a few HD580/600 measurements that show slight differences in the treble, enough to potentially explain what you heard.

The Mad Dog/T50RP also doesn't have the smoothest treble, so there could be emphasis spots that correlate to a sense of clarity. The T50RP seems pretty notorious for showing a spike around 10KHz in measurements, and I find that spot to add a sense of clarity to the sound.

I know some have said the HD600/650 can be a bit slow or warm. Perhaps that could be "crowding out" a sense of clarity, especially since the HD600 exhibits signs of extra harmonic distortion in the bass. I'd guess that coupled with the slight rise in the mid/upper bass contributes to that.

These possible factors aside, personal tastes and your frame of reference in which you judge something play a large role in perception. I have not heard the HD600 (most similar was the HD598), but I'd wager they're probably a better point of reference than most other headphones. That's not to say your personal tastes and hearing sensitivities perfectly match up with a known good frame of reference (thinking more objectively here), but there's nothing wrong with that.
True. It does seem that there are some variations, both in measurements and impressions for many headphones, especially the HD600 since they're so popular.
You're probably right on the issue of the 10k area adding to perceived clarity, but I think it may also have something to do with the midrange as well. I don't remember the details, but if I remember right, going from the Mad Dog 3.0 to 3.2, the 10k area didn't change very much, but the perceived clarity was boosted, at least in my opinion.

Maybe the CSDs can shed some light on the issue of being "slow"? These CSDs seem fairly clean though. It could also be the bass as well. I have noticed that for some reason, bassier headphones do seem to not have as much clarity as bass-light headphones.

I do think the frame of reference is probably a big part of it as well. I haven't heard the HD600s in a while, but I did listen to the HD650s not too long ago in less than ideal conditions, and felt that they were lacking clarity, but I was directly comparing them to the Mad Dogs and indirectly comparing them to my STAX SR-202 with real leather pads from the 507/404LE.

Shut, thanks Hans! For some reason I thought MechG had the ADs instead of the MDs facepalm
No, it's all good. I own the Mad Dogs but I got to audition the Alpha Dogs as well. :)

I know some have said the HD600/650 can be a bit slow or warm. Perhaps that could be "crowding out" a sense of clarity, especially since the HD600 exhibits signs of extra harmonic distortion in the bass. I'd guess that coupled with the slight rise in the mid/upper bass contributes to that.

I tend to think that this is the case by looking at the CSDs and listening.  But we enjoy this series for the tonal balance- not hurting us with peaks, or annoying us with suck-outs.  People tune to taste with the slight differences in FR between the models. Just solid, nice cans, with good value compared to lots of stuff.  Oh, and they can sound "great"/quite different on various pieces of gear...
You're probably right on the money here as well. They do have a nice tonal balance that pretty much never hurts your ears. That's only part of my personal tastes for headphones though, I also like to have a sense of detail and clarity without hurting my ears with treble spikes of death.

And you also bring up a good point with amplifiers. I was only ever able to hear them on my custom built O2 with OPA2234 opamps and no tube amps or higher end SS amps.

mech, I wasn't trying to be rude. Like UB said, the topic of veiled or not veiled has been nearly beat to death; I was merely teasing.

hans and CT both have very good points. Your perception of the ideal sound and your equipment will both contribute to how the HD600's sound to you, especially considering their scalability.
Sorry that I took you seriously. I had kind of forgot how hotly debated the issue of "veil" has been surrounding the Senns over all the years. No hard feelings. :)
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Hands

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Re: HD580
« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2014, 04:53:24 AM »

Regarding the change from MD 3.0 to 3.2, Dan might have figured out how to lower the harmonic distortion a bit. That could play a role. It could also just be the tonal balance shift simply making it sound clearer. I think I know what you're talking about, though, and I'd have to guess it's multiple small changes that add up. Or it really could just be one tiny thing. *shrug*
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Re: HD580
« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2014, 06:38:40 AM »

Mechgamer123, when you are used to or started with bright headphones the smooth headphones in the beginning often sound less clear, subjectively speaking.

I used to think I liked bright headphones but over time I preferred smoother sounding headphones with less emphasis on the treble. The effect of expecting raised or peaky treble can sub-consciously still affect you when you still have and use bright headphones.

For example listen to music with bright headphones and then switch to something like a HD598. The HD598 will initially sound less engaging and maybe even dull or veiled. It is just something you notice when you compare headphones over time. 

 

   
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Re: HD580
« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2014, 09:32:40 PM »

These my main good phones, along with Apple In-ears for portable use. I got a great deal, $200 for 2 pairs on Craigslist and then I sold one pair for $150 and kept the other pair that had like-new pads.

I've been thinking upgrading them with HD650 drivers. My main complaint about the 580 is that the treble, while better than any other headphones I've heard, doesn't sound as refined as, say, the better $400-500 bookshelf speakers out there. There seems to be something irritating going on in the treble, despite the fact that everyone online says they're warm and veiled.

I'm wondering if it's those little lower-treble humps that I'm hearing. The HD650 seems to lack those, but on one of the samples measure here had a huge treble depression that didn't look good.

Also I'm curious as to whether the HD580 frame makes much difference, and whether I should upgrade the grills. The closely matched measurements between the 580 and 600 seem to indicate that it's not too important.
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