Topic: Why on earth didn't the manufacturer put up the best? (Read 3369 times)

Anaxilus · « **Reply #20 on:** December 05, 2013, 08:00:37 AM »

Quote from: Donald North on December 05, 2013, 06:55:34 AM

In my opinion, the expectation bias argument is only validated if the outcome is in line with what the user was expecting. However I have experienced on multiple occasions the opposite: I expected something to sound good/better but it didn't. Some other times, I expected something to sound bad/not to my liking and was pleasantly surprised. In these latter cases, the expectation bias argument has no legs.

This ^. I've had too many instances of expectation disappointment. Expensive opamps. Many expensive cables. More drivers in IEMs. Pretty and expensive boutique tubes. Expensive pots. Expensive caps. Expensive transformers. Expensive transports. 'Objectively perfect' measuring amps. SABRE Dacs. HEIL/AMT drivers. Modern E-stats in general. Lots and lots of big buck stuff. I'd take a cheap pair of Vanatoo bookshelf speakers over most of the speaker rigs going for tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars at most audio shows.
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IME, engineers design for a set of performance metrics first. Then they check w/ their own ears to make sure something isn't wrong. If it passes their own ears, they demo it to potential customers or beta testers to see if it passes muster for the consumer or if they missed anything themselves. The only 'design by ear' builders that I know and respect are people that have built and designed so many amps and circuits that their experience already gives them a general idea of what the resulting sound will be before anything is drilled or soldered. I know Craig has engineered and built lots of shit for decades; longer than most cynics around have been alive on earth and he did it for UREI > JBL > Harmon Kardon. I know sure as heck neither he or many others here just randomly pull random mystery parts from a giant bin and plug and pray they might sound good together like a bunch of chimps at a zoo. Jason and Mike were at Sumo and Theta respectively. Hell, Donald above is a Caltech grad and I don't think it's in English Literature. He also has his own largely unmarketed engineering resume in the audio industry. I even hear Kevin Gilmore is a real honest to goodness 'doctor'. I think procotologist of some sort?

So yeah, design and engineering is usually first and prime. It's not hard to see who puts marketing first usually.

anetode · « **Reply #21 on:** December 05, 2013, 08:01:05 AM »

Quote from: Donald North on December 05, 2013, 06:55:34 AM

In my opinion, the expectation bias argument is only validated if the outcome is in line with what the user was expecting. However I have experienced on multiple occasions the opposite: I expected something to sound good/better but it didn't. Some other times, I expected something to sound bad/not to my liking and was pleasantly surprised. In these latter cases, the expectation bias argument has no legs.

It's not an argument, it's an observation of human behavior. Expectation bias just is, whatever role it may play and to whatever extent, even in the case of paradoxical results. I'm not at all claiming that it's the only factor, rather it's one of many concurrent cognitive processes.

After a certain time everyone who's into audio has had that "am I crazy or does this sound different/bad/awesome?" moment. Sometimes you can find an explanation, sometimes it turns out to have been a momentary fancy and sometimes there's no explanation at all.

anetode · « **Reply #22 on:** December 05, 2013, 08:04:04 AM »

Quote from: Anaxilus on December 05, 2013, 08:00:37 AM

The only 'design by ear' builders than I know and respect are people that have built and designed so many amps and circuits that there experience already gives them a general idea of what the resulting sound will be before anything is drilled or soldered.

At the risk of sounding like a complete ass I have to point out that this is the very definition of expectation bias. It becomes entangled with experience and wisdom.

Anaxilus · « **Reply #23 on:** December 05, 2013, 08:08:36 AM »

Quote from: anetode on December 05, 2013, 08:04:04 AM

Quote from: Anaxilus on December 05, 2013, 08:00:37 AM
The only 'design by ear' builders than I know and respect are people that have built and designed so many amps and circuits that there experience already gives them a general idea of what the resulting sound will be before anything is drilled or soldered.

At the risk of sounding like a complete ass I have to point out that this is the very definition of expectation bias. It becomes entangled with experience and wisdom.

I agree. Just like going to sleep thinking the sun will rise in the morning is 'expectation bias' using your relative metrics in a deductive fashion. Inductively it makes perfect sense and is completely cogent regardless of whether it is valid or not. If you have to have a stroke about whether your car will actually run after filling it each and every time w/ gas from a gas station, you've got some serious fucking issues. I think many so called pseudo-'objectivist's have some serious fucking issues.

I'd like to hear to the same hyper cynical view of someone changing the gear ratios in their transmission expecting to improve acceleration or bolting on a supercharger expecting more power to be the one called an ass. Somehow in audio, its so much easier for one side to apply a standard they wouldn't to another profession. Somehow actual professional experience that is repeatable in audio is somehow invalid when compared to making fast cars and planes that actually fly. I'll make sure to pass on to Adrian Newey how stupid he is for sketching all those Formula 1 world championship cars using a pad and pencil in the bathroom rather than running auto simulations all day like all the teams that finish behind him.

anetode · « **Reply #24 on:** December 05, 2013, 08:19:18 AM »

Quote from: Anaxilus on December 05, 2013, 08:08:36 AM

I agree. Just like going to sleep thinking the sun will rise in the morning is 'expectation bias' using your relative metrics in a deductive fashion.

One nitpick: cognitive bias is an active subconscious process. Thinking that the sun will rise is just thinking that the sun will rise - it's a conscious musing. The moment you open your eyes in the morning, before you're fully conscious, only then does expectation bias kick in. We've all had times where we've overslept or underslept and were genuinely surprised for a second or two upon waking. Fortunately expectation bias alone cannot will us to unsee the sun (unless drugs or mental illnesses are involved). When you're experimenting with swapping parts the changes in audio usually don't amount to a night and day difference.

Edit: woah, with the second paragraph you've gone on to absurd hyperbole. I don't know who you're targeting with that, Anax, but I've never claimed that "professional experience is invalid" in any profession.

Anaxilus · « **Reply #25 on:** December 05, 2013, 08:25:56 AM »

Quote from: anetode on December 05, 2013, 08:19:18 AM

Quote from: Anaxilus on December 05, 2013, 08:08:36 AM
I agree. Just like going to sleep thinking the sun will rise in the morning is 'expectation bias' using your relative metrics in a deductive fashion.
Edit: woah, with the second paragraph you've gone on to absurd hyperbole. I don't know who you're targeting with that, Anax, but I've never claimed that "professional experience is invalid" in any profession.

I'm preempting the imbeciles who will read your post and misinterpret it to suit their own expectation bias. I'm just getting a head start.

Anaxilus · « **Reply #26 on:** December 05, 2013, 08:29:17 AM »

Quote from: anetode on December 05, 2013, 08:19:18 AM

Quote from: Anaxilus on December 05, 2013, 08:08:36 AM
I agree. Just like going to sleep thinking the sun will rise in the morning is 'expectation bias' using your relative metrics in a deductive fashion.

One nitpick: cognitive bias is an active subconscious process. Thinking that the sun will rise is just thinking that the sun will rise - it's a conscious musing. The moment you open your eyes in the morning, before you're fully conscious, only then does expectation bias kick in. We've all had times where we've overslept or underslept and were genuinely surprised for a second or two upon waking. Fortunately expectation bias alone cannot will us to unsee the sun (unless drugs or mental illnesses are involved). When you're experimenting with swapping parts the changes in audio usually don't amount to a night and day difference.

Wait, what? Expectation bias can happen at any point upon the timeline prior to observation of the actual event. It is not relegated to a specific point in time if I understand your point correctly. Once you observe the sun in the morning, you have confirmation bias, not expectation bias it seems to me.

Btw, if we did not subconsciously presume the sun would rise the next morning, we would not go to work to slave away at a 9-5 job expecting to be paid later for our services if we had fear of the earth freezing over the next day. I do believe this means the sub-conscious is not mutually exclusive to consciousness. It is a subset, not an inversion like unconsciousness. Otherwise it could not be 'active' per your definition.

anetode · « **Reply #27 on:** December 05, 2013, 08:40:12 AM »

Quote from: Anaxilus on December 05, 2013, 08:29:17 AM

Wait, what? Expectation bias can happen at any point upon the timeline prior to observation of the actual event. It is not relegated to a specific point in time if I understand your point correctly. Once you observe the sun in the morning, you have confirmation bias, not expectation bias it seems to me.

It's subconscious and inactive until it has an effect. Your brain doesn't waste time constantly thinking about the sun in the background tasks queue. When you're working on something towards a specific goal expectation bias is the term used to describe your brain taking some shortcuts and affecting your actions and perceptions in favor of that goal. I did muddle up the definition and broaden it to priming, which is really what I was talking about. You're primed, subconsciously or otherwise to perceive in a certain way.

justin w. · « **Reply #28 on:** December 07, 2013, 10:45:05 PM »

Quote from: phillip88 on December 04, 2013, 02:59:31 PM

I was wondering, like the recent case of RWAK and Fiio X3, 3rd parties offer "upgrades" from changing the DAC chip of 8740 to 8741, and op amp rolling from warmer chips to neutral chips. What confused me was, if the "upgrades" do improve the SQ, why don't the manufacturer do so? Is it because of design issues or just costing? Anyone have any idea what's the insider reasons?

if battery life is a concern, its important that the WM8741 uses twice as much power as the 8740

phillip88 · « **Reply #29 on:** December 07, 2013, 11:12:34 PM »

Quote from: justin w. on December 07, 2013, 10:45:05 PM

if battery life is a concern, its important that the WM8741 uses twice as much power as the 8740

If this tech fact is true, I guess that'd be one of a very valid reasons for choosing 8740.

Author Topic: Why on earth didn't the manufacturer put up the best? (Read 3369 times)

Anaxilus

Re: Why on earth didn't the manufacturer put up the best?

anetode

Re: Why on earth didn't the manufacturer put up the best?

anetode

Re: Why on earth didn't the manufacturer put up the best?

Anaxilus

Re: Why on earth didn't the manufacturer put up the best?

anetode

Re: Why on earth didn't the manufacturer put up the best?

Anaxilus

Re: Why on earth didn't the manufacturer put up the best?

Anaxilus

Re: Why on earth didn't the manufacturer put up the best?

anetode

Re: Why on earth didn't the manufacturer put up the best?

justin w.

Re: Why on earth didn't the manufacturer put up the best?

phillip88

Re: Why on earth didn't the manufacturer put up the best?

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Author Topic: Why on earth didn't the manufacturer put up the best? (Read 3369 times)